VAR and Refereeing 2025/26 | General Discussion

always_hoping said:
5cm tolerance line was used to allow a Liverpool goal recently yet not tonight. Lack of consistency with VAR decisions the most frustrating part.

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Surely it was used the same way?

I don't get it either though, the Wirtz goal that looked so clearly off was explained away with this rule, yet I must have seen at least 5 close calls not given since that looked alot more onside than his ever did.
 
always_hoping said:
5cm tolerance line was used to allow a Liverpool goal recently yet not tonight. Lack of consistency with VAR decisions the most frustrating part.

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Hasn't this been done to death?

The tolerance is baked into the system. It's not applied or not applied. See the thickness of the lines? That's the 5cm

As for someone else's point about what looks on and what looks off, we absolutely cannot tell with the human eye whether these marginal calls are correct or not via a TV feed. The perspective distortion caused by the angle of the camera means whatever we think we see isn't an accurate representation of what's really happening if you were level with the play.

These conspiracy theories are so feckin stupid.
 
I think getting ruled offside because of your fecking hand is stupid. What advantage did Case have if his hand was slightly ahead of the defender? The offside rule was set up so the attacking player is not getting an unfair advantage, but this wasn't the case as he can't score with his hand.
 
reelworld said:
I think getting ruled offside because of your fecking hand is stupid. What advantage did Case have if his hand was slightly ahead of the defender? The offside rule was set up so the attacking player is not getting an unfair advantage, but this wasn't the case as he can't score with his hand.
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Well I agree there was no real advantage but it wasn't his hand that was offside. That would be completely ridiculous. It was the upper arm which you can score with. It has to be a part of you body with which you can score a goal.

They should revisit the law though. In many cases there is no material advantage to the attacker but at the moment the ball is played a part of their body is marginally ahead of the defender and the goal is ruled out, when 99% of their body is onside and both players are basically level. It's extremely harsh to rule out goals like Casemiro's one tonight.
 
Withnail said:
Hasn't this been done to death?

The tolerance is baked into the system. It's not applied or not applied. See the thickness of the lines? That's the 5cm

As for someone else's point about what looks on and what looks off, we absolutely cannot tell with the human eye whether these marginal calls are correct or not via a TV feed. The perspective distortion caused by the angle of the camera means whatever we think we see isn't an accurate representation of what's really happening if you were level with the play.

These conspiracy theories are so feckin stupid.
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True, but isn't it still all underpinned by where the VAR arbitrarily decides to place the line though?
 
Withnail said:
Well I agree there was no real advantage but it wasn't his hand that was offside. That would be completely ridiculous. It was the upper arm which you can score with. It has to be a part of you body with which you can score a goal.

They should revisit the law though. In many cases there is no material advantage to the attacker but at the moment the ball is played a part of their body is marginally ahead of the defender and the goal is ruled out, when 99% of their body is onside and both players are basically level. It's extremely harsh to rule out goals like Casemiro's one tonight.
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Absolutely the law and how VAR is used to rule upon it need a serious rethink from the ground up. Because if you place the original reason why the offside law was introduced and goals like the one last night beside each other, it would be very hard to make a case that the offside law should be used to rules such goals out. Casemiro is quite literally gaining no advantage by having his kneecap 15-20mm ahead of the defender at the point at which the VAR decided to place the line in the video sequence. And the vast majority of these cases will be because the attacker's body is at a different point in the range of motion of running. Both players would have to be running in perfect sync for the rule being applied this way to even make sense.

There should have to be a clear advantage for the attacker for a goal to be ruled out, the law was introduced to stop goal hanging. I doubt anyone ever imagined it would or should be used like this.
 
reelworld said:
I think getting ruled offside because of your fecking hand is stupid. What advantage did Case have if his hand was slightly ahead of the defender? The offside rule was set up so the attacking player is not getting an unfair advantage, but this wasn't the case as he can't score with his hand.
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I don't think it was his hand which was the issue, it was his head.
 
When there's no accurate measurement for when the ball is 'played', seeing millimetre offside calls will never stop being outrageous.

We 'guess' this is the freezeframe to use and use 'technology' to prove the offside.

Great. Thank God all those goals are now ruled out.
 
always_hoping said:
5cm tolerance line was used to allow a Liverpool goal recently yet not tonight. Lack of consistency with VAR decisions the most frustrating part.

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Is there any downside to simply just using foot placement to determine offsides? For me it would seem much easier to judge, and these offsides you sometimes see given, where it's the shoulder/armpit area that is offside are just stupid - there is no clear way to decide when arm stops and shoulder starts. I guess the reason you don't do that is because it makes it harder for linesmen to call it during play, and maybe you can't use one rule for real time and another for VAR. But these pictures are just ridiculous.
 
always_hoping said:
5cm tolerance line was used to allow a Liverpool goal recently yet not tonight. Lack of consistency with VAR decisions the most frustrating part.

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I absolutely loath the way they present these offside graphics. What is the point in showing an angle which gives absolutely no clarity as to what is triggering the offside? When it’s computer rendered, surely they could show a straight line which makes it much clearer?

I feel like we got a lot more clarity and decent replays of offsides before VAR existed.
 
Doracle said:
I absolutely loath the way they present these offside graphics. What is the point in showing an angle which gives absolutely no clarity as to what is triggering the offside? When it’s computer rendered, surely they could show a straight line which makes it much clearer?

I feel like we got a lot more clarity and decent replays of offsides before VAR existed.
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Agree it's really confusing. With the budget the pl have, should be way better.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Is there any downside to simply just using foot placement to determine offsides? For me it would seem much easier to judge, and these offsides you sometimes see given, where it's the shoulder/armpit area that is offside are just stupid - there is no clear way to decide when arm stops and shoulder starts. I guess the reason you don't do that is because it makes it harder for linesmen to call it during play, and maybe you can't use one rule for real time and another for VAR. But these pictures are just ridiculous.
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Been banging this drum a long time. The only critical part of the body is the feet. Who cares you can score with your head? If you dont move your feet you wont be able to head the ball, so the only advantage that is gained is if the attackers foot is ahead of the defenders. Such an obvious fix.
 
Doracle said:
I absolutely loath the way they present these offside graphics. What is the point in showing an angle which gives absolutely no clarity as to what is triggering the offside? When it’s computer rendered, surely they could show a straight line which makes it much clearer?

I feel like we got a lot more clarity and decent replays of offsides before VAR existed.
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Agree wholeheartedly, as it's computer generated just whizz it round so the angle is square-on from the touchline.

There's nothing connecting the point furthest forward on the player furthest forward down to the orange line, don't know why as it would be very helpful. Without it, this 'invisible wall' that they're either breaking through or not with the different levels of shading is more difficult to see instantly, particularly when it's only a tiny fraction breaking through it.

On that one, got to look for that little bit of his head that's darker I assume? Hard to see quickly and even then it's a similar colour to the Premier League branding on that fake advertising hoarding they've put on the graphic. Can miss that at quick glance.
 
For me the point is not that they are getting the offside decisions wrong or right (because they are technically getting them right). The point is that we cannot celebrate virtually any goal properly because we know that they are going to get the microscope out to try and find a hairline offside that could hardly be seen with the naked eye.

My ideal solution:
Just get rid of VAR for offsides. Stick with the on-field decision. We will have more mistakes, but at least we know immediately whether the goal counts or not, and we can celebrate without anxiety.

My middle-ground (kind of left field) solution:
There is a panel of 3 referees that watch the replay of every goal immediately after its scored. They have ~10 seconds to all vote unanimously (and independent of each other) that the goal is offside beyond reasonable doubt (kind of like a jury). This should result in only clear and obvious offsides being caught. Think Drogba at OT in 2010 - would take 2 seconds to catch that one.

As a side note, I don't think that a player should be ruled offside if they are retreating from an offside position and receive the ball in an onside position. Because what advantage have they gained from being offside in that scenario?
 
Chipper said:
Agree wholeheartedly, as it's computer generated just whizz it round so the angle is square-on from the touchline.

There's nothing connecting the point furthest forward on the player furthest forward down to the orange line, don't know why as it would be very helpful. Without it, this 'invisible wall' that they're either breaking through or not with the different levels of shading is more difficult to see instantly, particularly when it's only a tiny fraction breaking through it.

On that one, got to look for that little bit of his head that's darker I assume? Hard to see quickly and even then it's a similar colour to the Premier League branding on that fake advertising hoarding they've put on the graphic. Can miss that at quick glance.
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Yes, although I’m not sure what incident that actually is, as it’s not the Casemiro one from last night. The 37 is presumably VdV but I don’t know why that decision was posted.

Edit - I see it’s the Newcastle v Spurs one.
 
Nyland said:
When there's no accurate measurement for when the ball is 'played', seeing millimetre offside calls will never stop being outrageous.

We 'guess' this is the freezeframe to use and use 'technology' to prove the offside.

Great. Thank God all those goals are now ruled out.
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Yep
 
always_hoping said:
5cm tolerance line was used to allow a Liverpool goal recently yet not tonight. Lack of consistency with VAR decisions the most frustrating part.

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If he had a different shape head he’d be onside. Is that his actual head shape or a computer generic head? What if he had a barnet, would they guess the shape of his head.

To have this supposedly super accurate offside calling when the graphics look like that is a joke, and that’s before even starting on when they decide to freeze the frame
 
Doracle said:
Yes, although I’m not sure what incident that actually is, as it’s not the one from last night. The 37 is presumably VdV but I don’t know why that decision was posted.
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Newcastle had a goal disallowed last night against Spurs, is it not from that?
 
Doracle said:
I absolutely loath the way they present these offside graphics. What is the point in showing an angle which gives absolutely no clarity as to what is triggering the offside? When it’s computer rendered, surely they could show a straight line which makes it much clearer?

I feel like we got a lot more clarity and decent replays of offsides before VAR existed.
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You can see it’s his head that’s triggering the offside in the picture, though?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I thought it was his shoulder? They only put the image up for a couple of seconds but it looked fecking ridiculous.


EDIT: we are talking about Casemiro, right?
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Oh my bad, I was referring to the Newcastle disallowed goal.

As for Casemiro's disallowed goal - from memory I think the rule is that the attacker's head / torso / feet need to be behind the final defender's head / torso / feet.
 
Foden slicing an opponent's calf and only getting a yellow. The City run has begun !
 
I wonder if Dalot escaped a red with that lunge on Doku because Fletcher had in the two previous post-match interviews gone after the refs. We've not had someone at the club going after refs since Mourinho and LVG, before that obviously SAF. It seems we've had a policy of more or less accepting everything and moving on.

One of the many things I really liked about how Fletcher conducted himself in the role.
 
The Marmoush offside yesterday was a joke, could clearly see the LB playing him, the linesman just didn't look at the LB. Denied an absolute worldie. As bad and all as these guys are with VAR this weekend showed without VAR they're far worse. It's not the tech its the incompetence of those using it. He's not just on, he's on by a couple of feet.

 
padr81 said:
The Marmoush offside yesterday was a joke, could clearly see the LB playing him, the linesman just didn't look at the LB. Denied an absolute worldie. As bad and all as these guys are with VAR this weekend showed without VAR they're far worse. It's not the tech its the incompetence of those using it. He's not just on, he's on by a couple of feet.

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I think a majority of people were worried about this at the time, but it's an undeniable fact now.

PGMOL aren't fit for purpose.
 
Nothing wrong with VAR, its the standard of the referees that are the issue.

Until we get people on VAR that are solely trained to use VAR to a professional standard and have no ties whatsoever with the referees then nothing will change.

Its like a closed shop for the inept.
 
padr81 said:
The Marmoush offside yesterday was a joke, could clearly see the LB playing him, the linesman just didn't look at the LB. Denied an absolute worldie. As bad and all as these guys are with VAR this weekend showed without VAR they're far worse. It's not the tech its the incompetence of those using it. He's not just on, he's on by a couple of feet.

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Actually, if you look closely you can clearly see that the defender was less than 115cm behind him. Good decision.
 
DennisReynolds said:
I think a majority of people were worried about this at the time, but it's an undeniable fact now.

PGMOL aren't fit for purpose.
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I think it was Eddie Howe who said VAR has actually made them worse because they aren't as sharp etc... and he might have a point that they've become relient on it for offsides and tight decisions like that. I mean that one I posted is probably the least controversial of the weekend. I know its a tough job and not Diaz vs Spurs bad but its kinda crazy.
 
Some of our refs over here need a refresher course or extra training because there so bad. I think we should have some foreign refs come ref prem games.
 
Flying high said:
Actually, if you look closely you can clearly see that the defender was less than 115cm behind him. Good decision.
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Well done, you're absolutely the first person to make a 115 joke to a City fan in a non-relevant topic. Astounding wit and banter, I'm proud to be on the receving end.
 
padr81 said:
Well done, you're absolutely the first person to make a 115 joke to a City fan in a non-relevant topic. Astounding wit and banter, I'm proud to be on the receving end.
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Originality was not my intention. If you still support that bunch of cheats then you deserve to be reminded of your complicity.
 
padr81 said:
The Marmoush offside yesterday was a joke, could clearly see the LB playing him, the linesman just didn't look at the LB. Denied an absolute worldie. As bad and all as these guys are with VAR this weekend showed without VAR they're far worse. It's not the tech its the incompetence of those using it. He's not just on, he's on by a couple of feet.

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Don't agree with the point behind the conclusion here. Calling offsides is one of the hardest jobs and requires the lino to look at 3 different moving pieces at once. In real time it's very difficult to be consistently correct. Before VAR, decisions like that and worse took place every game.
 
The FA Cup weekend has been a reminder of why VAR was needed - refs and officials clearly make even worse decisions without it. This was the norm pre-VAR.
 
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