VAR - Not the hero we want, the one we need

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Pavl3n, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. Jun 10, 2019

    711 Full Member Scout

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    That poster does not say he doesn't want VAR because it gets decisions right though does he, which was your allegation. Keep trying.
  2. Jun 10, 2019

    Sassy Colin Death or the gladioli!

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    He just said it ruins the enjoyment of game! It's quite clear when you read the post, it could not be more clear.
  3. Jun 10, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    Tennis & cricket are different games where the introduction of technology isn’t going to ruin the flow of the game
  4. Jun 10, 2019

    cyberman Full Member

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    What game has been ruined by VAR?
    Even the England v Holland game was a great game to watch.
    A goal wrongfully being allowed ruins the flow a lot more than a 60 second check. It literally changes the fabric of a match.
  5. Jun 10, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    It does lessen the spontaneous enjoyment of the game.

    But I don’t not want VAR because it gets decisions correct - although if seems petty to disallow a goal for being 1mm offside or some small soft infringement in the build up

    Decisions can look worse in slow mo & offsides can be incorrect - how do you know exactly when the ball has been played?

    VAR isn’t as black & white as you make out AND it’s ruining the game
  6. Jun 10, 2019

    Spiersey Chelsea fan

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    I've watched hundreds of games with VAR and I've yet to see a single one where VAR has ruined the flow of a game. By this I mean, I've not seen a game be very open then turn bad due to a 2/3 minute delay.
  7. Jun 10, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    Every game I’ve watched as you can’t be sure a goal has been scored until VAR checks it

    Also specifically the Ajax V Madrid game where they ruined the joy of a great Ajax goal checking for 5 mins incase the ball went out of play by 1mm on the halfway line 2 mins before the goal
  8. Jun 10, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    That’s your opinion - in mine I’ve seen it change the direction of a game - an attacking teams momentum being lost
  9. Jun 10, 2019

    cyberman Full Member

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    Well you can. Plenty of goals have been scored and kicked off in similar time frames under var
  10. Jun 10, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    Yes but with VAR they COULD be ruled out as it checks every single goal
  11. Jun 10, 2019

    Mrs Smoker Full Member

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    I am still annoyed, angry and very bitter about that Drogba goal. Probably will be until my dying breath. :nervous:
  12. Jun 10, 2019

    Sassy Colin Death or the gladioli!

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    And so you should be!

    Good, I'd rather they got it right than wrong.

    The amount of time it takes for everyone to crowd round the ref complaining about a marginal offside, ball out of play, handball etc, VAR sorts it out just as quickly and you can't really argue with the video evidence.

    In any case, we all know how shit refs are, so anything that takes them out of the equation has to be a good thing.
  13. Jun 10, 2019

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    They need to start stopping the clock any minute the ball is dead and blow the whistle when it's bang on the time limit. So many seconds get wasted during throw ins, free kicks, corners, goal kicks when the ball is dead which will add up to about 5-10 minutes easily during a match.
  14. Jun 10, 2019

    Mrs Smoker Full Member

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    You're way off actually. It's closer to 30 minutes.

    To be fair, I don't mind that now, got used to it, and am a bit scared of that alternative, with TV houses asking for more and more, and the sport becoming like US ones.
  15. Jun 10, 2019

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    Play 60 minutes and stop the clock until the ball is in play. I never thought it was fair that all those seconds don't get added to the clock at the end which add up to minutes

    I agree about the TV adverts, it's something that could creep into the game with this system but I honestly think with VAR it's probably needed at least people know all the time is being counted for as the clocks not ticking
  16. Jun 10, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    I've seen a couple of games where the VAR seemed to change the path of the game a bit - gave a team under the cosh a bit of breathing space.

    There's so many sodding delays anyway - faux injuries, last minute subs - I'm not feeling VAR is making that massively worse apart from the occasional time they seem to take forever, which is normally a goal/penalty/disallowed goal.

    The trends I see atm are more soft penalties (handball rule in here too) which I don't like & some silly disalloweds - more of these than was expected I think.

    10 games a weekend is going to give us English a different perspective again, I think.

    I don't trust the Prem Officials to do it well, at all.

    Oh and mainly only based on England/Switzerland yesterday, it seems like pushing & holding at corners might be reducing?
  17. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    Yeah, next season will give us a greater idea when we see it used across ten games week in week out.

    I get that the refs need help and can’t get everything right, I also get that people want a fair sport with the correct decisions. From what I’ve seen of VAR so far though, it’s not doing either of these.

    Some VAR calls have been laughably bad and slow, please don’t say they’ll get much quicker, the video replays will always be reviewed and not on fast forward!

    The best thing I’ve seen so far which is so far from fair it’s a joke is the no reviewing handballs outside the box.
    Can’t rememeber the game clearly, a player on a yellow clearly handballs it outside the box deliberately, ref misses it, replays show it’s clear as day handball, should be a second yellow and sent off but the VAR can’t do anything about it :lol: but if it had happened a yard further in one direction no doubt the guy would have been sent off. What in the feck, great idea VAR, that’s definitely making the game more fair.

    Then you can watch a different game straight after and VAR spend five minutes pissing about to see whether a ball has gone out of play by less than an inch (when they clearly havnt got the accuracy from tv cameras to tell this so they are best guessing) to stop a goal that was scored 2 minutes later.

    It makes no sense and is a million miles from being consistent.


    My other hate of it is how emotionally draining it is for a team that has just scored have it disallowed. The old offside linesman’s flag was checked by the scorer for example and then run away and celebrated, team mates coaches etc go crazy and it’s a massive Adrenalin dump, now all that celebration can be allowed to go on and then all of a sudden the ref just goes, nah, no goal sorry lads and they’re expected to just play on like robots, and the goal could have been disallowed for the most frivolous subjective decision to top it off even more.
    It happened in the World Cup, forgot what country but it was a lower one, scored against a bigger team, they all went crazy, used up so much emotion, Adrenalin, energy, full on celebrations for five minutes and then the ref goes over and ‘sorry lads no goal’ I can remember it making me feel sick, never mind how those players felt but they are supposed to just suck it up and get on with it? Or should they now wait untill the VAR gives the all clear before they go wild with celebration?

    It’s such a buzzkill of a change to the sport. I have a genuine dislike for it from the times I’ve seen it used so far, maybe I’m better off taking a break from football for five years and coming back once it’s all ‘upto speed’ ‘no longer new’ ‘settled in’ or whatever else people come up with to excuse the delays and errors.

    No doubt in five years, we’ll also have the stop clock people are pushing for :lol: and adverts while VAR make their ‘20 second check’. Can’t wait!
  18. Jun 10, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Also making up imaginary scenarios to complain about

    Meanwhile, fans in the countries that have been using VAR generally love it
  19. Jun 10, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    It makes no sense to me to be against a system that helps get more correct decisions. The little delay is more than worth it for me
  20. Jun 10, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    Haha yes imaginary scenarios like all the actual instances I’ve pointed out..

    I don’t think people ‘generally ‘ love it . Although neither me or you can prove that so you shouldn’t bring that up as a fact- From the World Cup & champions league it’s received a lot of criticism
  21. Jun 10, 2019

    Rafaeldagold Full Member

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    That’s fine & we’ll always disagree then as that to me isn’t the be all & end all.

    There are two different types of people who are for and against VAR. There are those who care more about getting decisions right to make it equal and just, and those who care more about the game being as entertaining as possible and keep the magic that makes “the beautiful game” unique.
  22. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    It’s not about letting errors go so much but these people saying, it’s only a delay, it makes it fair, it makes the right calls. Does it really? The yellow card handball instance, is that fair really? The mata offside, is that fair really? The PSG handball, really?

    These are just a few instances off the top of my head. Yes they’ve overturned decisions correctly but there’s so many instances where they havnt or can’t/won’t.

    Is that not a problem? Or aslong as they get a few right it’s all worth it
  23. Jun 10, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    As long as the rules are applied, the concept of "fairness" is weird. This ain't a fairy tale, there are rules to follow for players and refs to apply.

    Until your own team gets dicked by a wrong decision, the beautiful game will be a forgotten concept. Football has gotten worse with diving, fake injuries, subs that take ages to happen. VAR isn't the first thing to delay time and not nearly the worst.
    And no I disagree completely with your simplification when describing the two camps. That's too narrow minded.
  24. Jun 10, 2019

    fck New Member

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    The magic that makes "the beautiful game" are great goals, passes, dribbles etc. and not horrible referee decisions but to each their own. I mean going by your logic we should probably remove the linesman and fourth official as well so that it gets even more "magical".
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2019
  25. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    I think you just totally skimmed over my post without taking it in.

    The yellow card handball, fairytale fairness or not. Do you think it’s right var just leaves those go but a yard another way and var could change the game.

    I thought the point of var was to make the contest fair with no wrong calls?
  26. Jun 10, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    It is just a tool to help referees make calls that they missed or correct wrong ones they made. VAR is just technology, at the end of the day it depends on the men using it or not.
    At the moment, it's used for specific situations. Decisions will always belong to men
  27. Jun 10, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    In Italy, VAR has eliminated 3 major mistakes per week. That is not "a few"

    It also increased effective playing time, funnily enough
  28. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    Var is not technology, it’s a man watching a replay.

    Ok, I think the specific things it checks needs to be looked at because spending minutes deciding over a gnats arse hair of a ball going out of play and then totally turning a blind eye to an obvious error seems to kind of defeat the point of it
  29. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    Got crap refs in Italy though :angel:
  30. Jun 10, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Which is why VAR has such a high approval rate among fans :D

    (But seriously, it's the same in Germany, Spain, France and will be the same in England)
  31. Jun 10, 2019

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    I wonder if we could get a poll as to whether people are currently in favour of or against VAR? I don't think I've seen one here and it would help frame the debate in my mind if we knew how many people actually have an issue with it.
  32. Jun 10, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    I might regret this but I'd like to think about 2 types of decision & I'll try & give an example.

    A - let's say Thierry Henry's handball

    and

    B - that handball penalty for England's women yesterday or the PSG handball (I'm saying these are nearly 50/50 or matters of opinion at least) or Sissoko where it hit his chest first

    How many of A are there really are? Obviously we don't want these to happen, the whoppers - the prime reason for VAR.

    However you feel, the other B's ARE matters of opinion, even more so under the old rule let's say.

    Is the new handball rule a massive improvement? Does it exist because of VAR? Or sit alongside VAR naturally so we know where we are?
    (but that's getting off the point)

    Does it matter if the 2nd set of decisions (the opinion ones) are made via opinion?

    David Elleray said in his book that so many decisions were based on 'feel' or what he felt was best for the game even or some combination thereof, what would make the rest of the game easier.

    Sissoko's penalty for Liverpool after 26 seconds, I don't see them getting that. The Scotland handball possibly goes to ''not enough in it'' & no one actually appealed for the Utd penalty did they?

    Fear of player dissent I suppose. Now if the telly says it's right, it must be.

    Just musing, but the Sissoko penalty got defended really enthusiastically on here - I just don't understand that. Even with new rules it looked like a farce, innit?

    Remember we're getting stuff right though isn't it? But there will still be mistakes.

    A lot aren't mistakes, it's just that people don't agree - both ways around. So why are we bothering?

    I haven't got enough objection to say that there ought not to be a trial - and it's going to change the game. I don't think I like how it's going to change the game, and this is probably my biggest thing, tbh.
  33. Jun 10, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    I don't suppose that the idea that the ref doesn't see everything is part of the game is gonna mean much is it?

    At least the Dog & Duck are still going to be able to cheat - :) :).
  34. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    I think a poll would be good to see, but then if it was a simple yes/no I’m not totally against VAR and think it could have its place stepping in for Suarez bites, Henry type handballs. It’s the constant checks (for some things) and totally subjective calls I can’t get behind.

    The trouble is distinguishing between a Henry handball and a kimbembe handball would be a can of worms.
  35. Jun 10, 2019

    Fully Fledged Full Member

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    How many goals do you think are scored in an average match?
  36. Jun 10, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    The replay with various angles is the technology...
    So all in all what your issue isn't with the VAR but the elements it's supposed to check.
  37. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    VAR, video assisted ref - man watching a replay.

    I’ve said in a later post it’s the elements it checks, yes. That’s more an annoyance of mine though.
    I think it should only be used for absolute blatant errors missed by the ref, bites, stamps, Henry handball etc. Not for checking a minor pull back or ball an inch out of play 2/3/4 minutes before a goal was scored.

    If it is to be used for those inch out of play, inch offside decisions i then think it shouldn’t turn a blind eye to a handball that should lead to a red just because it was outside the box.

    I also don’t quite trust the offside calls and don’t think they’re accurate enough.

    And this is minor and I know it’s a what if. I don’t like the thought of this leading to more changes to accommodate it, stop clock being used for example.

    And edit, I’ve mentioned before but should add, the uneasy feeling it gives after a goal is scored just incase it’s going to be ruled out. As well as the emotion drain on players after a full on celebration for minutes and then the goal disallowed.
  38. Jun 10, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Ball out of bounds or not, offsides, those are not subjective calls. The ball is either in bounds or it isn't. A player is either onside or he isn't. There is no "clear and obvious error" to talk about. There's either an error or a good call. Clear and obvious error only refers to subjective calls. And thise come down to the refs. It's the ref in charge of VAR who makes the call on whether there's a clear and obvious error(in his opinion) or not

    And i agree with you about the handball example you're using. All potential red card situations should fall within VAR's jurisdiction, not just the straight red card ones


    Not nearly as bad as you think. Generally speaking both players and fans know when a goal might not stand up to VAR review. It still doesn't really affect the matchgoing experience, at least to my experience. Plus sometimes you get to celebrate a goal twice, which is a plus. Honestly, in 10 years time as people grow used to it it might become annoying, but right now VAR adds to the experience rather than take away from it. And barring rare cases, you leave the stadium knowing you weren't cheated out of a result by an inept and possibly bent ref
  39. Jun 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    I know offside and ball out of play is not subjective, I don’t need that explained to me really :) I think you missed the word inch or I didn’t explain it well enough, it’s those minute calls where it’s really hard to tell, I don’t think we can judge it accurately enough to be changing calls and holding up the game for, the replays we seen when the ball was in or out on the half way line was quite funny, looking at all different angles to try and judge was it in or out.

    If we get to pitch running cameras, lasers, what ever tech that would be similar to goal line tech then I could accept that a little easier maybe.
    Goal line tech isn’t just a ref watching a few replay angles, it’s accurate within tolerances. Offside and other pitch lines need to be this accurate if the refs are going to be pedantic enough to go back minutes and check repeated camera angles judging an inch out of play/offside when sometimes it’s too close to call. I sound like a fecking broken record here now :lol:

    I also agree about match going experience, I think surrounded by all those people it’s natural to go haywire when everyone else does, that hasn’t changed, yet.
  40. Jun 10, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    Semantics :lol: Without technology there is no VAR.
    VAR isn't the problem in itself. Personally, I will always give priority to whatever helps get the fairest result within the rules, as long as the delays aren't annoying, which at the moment suits me