VAR, Refs and Linesmen | General Discussion

Oliver would've been a 9 or 10 year old when Fergie was breaking his heart by breaking Keegan's brain in the mid 90s and an angry young man in his 20s when Fergie called Newcastle a wee club.

He's getting his revenge where he can. The sad cnut.
 



Corrupt cnuts.


Howard Webb is a bit of a tool. He doesn’t really say anything about the penalty decision in itself, just that VAR should’ve stayed out of it.

As selective as it gets when it comes to which referees get dropped for making mistakes and which referees are instantly given matches in the PL following an obvious mistake. There’s no consistency at any level. We’ve had VAR’s interacting when they shouldn’t interact, we’ve had VAR not interacting when there is a clear and obvious mistake, yet there’s no consequences for the referees involved.

They’ve somehow managed to implement a VAR that is a gift to any referee wanting to influence a result and they keep making it worse. The arbitrary «clear and obvious» threshold does nothing but make it impossible to achieve consistency in the decision making. One week you’re punished with a red card and a penalty against you, next week the opposition gets a yellow card for an identical foul and you don’t get a penalty for the same foul. It obviously doesn’t help when Webb keeps pushing that the threshold for VAR interacting is going to be higher this season, not interested in re-refereeing matches, which will always put a lot of doubt in the mind of whoever is VAR whenever there is a situation they’re reviewing.
 
Well I'm not surprised at all by that audio. You could tell watching it originally that Oliver must have been pushing for a pen and Coote didn't really think it should be given.

If the on field ref asks for another angle he should be given them. It's mad they don't get to see all of the angles at normal speed.
 
Howard Webb is a bit of a tool. He doesn’t really say anything about the penalty decision in itself, just that VAR should’ve stayed out of it.
He did, though? He said he didn't think it was a penalty, that he'd prefer no foul being given in that instance.
 
He did, though? He said he didn't think it was a penalty, that he'd prefer no foul being given in that instance.

Where?

WEBB'S VERDICT:

I thought it was a misread by the VAR Michael Oliver. A VAR who is normally very talented and reliable. He got uber-focused in this situation with De Ligt's leg.

His leg coming through onto Danny Ings, not making any contact with the ball. The VAR sees that as a clear foul but I don't think he should get involved.

I think this is a situation where you leave the on-field decision as it is, probably whichever way it's called. VAR got too focused on the swinging leg from De Ligt.

Referees are told they are within their rights to stick to their original decision but of course, when they are sent to the screen, they are going because the VAR has identified what they perceive is an error. That judgment might be wrong, as it was in this case. They need to still look at the monitor with fresh eyes and make a call.
 
Where?

WEBB'S VERDICT:

I thought it was a misread by the VAR Michael Oliver. A VAR who is normally very talented and reliable. He got uber-focused in this situation with De Ligt's leg.

His leg coming through onto Danny Ings, not making any contact with the ball. The VAR sees that as a clear foul but I don't think he should get involved.

I think this is a situation where you leave the on-field decision as it is, probably whichever way it's called. VAR got too focused on the swinging leg from De Ligt.

Referees are told they are within their rights to stick to their original decision but of course, when they are sent to the screen, they are going because the VAR has identified what they perceive is an error. That judgment might be wrong, as it was in this case. They need to still look at the monitor with fresh eyes and make a call.
Here:
"And the VAR sees that as a clear foul. I think he was too focused on that aspect. I don't think he should have got involved. I think this is a situation where we'd leave the on-field decision as it is, probably whichever way it's called. On balance, I don't think it's a penalty kick. I would prefer no foul being given, no penalty."
 
That’s appalling really. Surprised more isn’t being made of it.
The fact it was Ten Hag's last game and the fact we missed so many chances in the match, the penalty was a case of "yes it's not a penalty, but United were architects of their own downfall"
 
So why hasn’t Oliver been suspended for even one game? At best he’s made a huge mistake that cost us a point, at worse he’s clearly a corrupted official based on previous calls he’s made over the last 2 years. Not just against United I might add.

Just wish the club would make a statement about it.
 

Whilst this is just Oliver getting it completely wrong (due to bias or otherwise), the Webb quotes still emphasis the overall problem. On one hand, he says that he thinks a penalty shouldn’t be given. On the other, he says it’s the onfield referee’s call.

The correct answer is that the VAR should have been concluding that it wasn’t a foul and should have been intervening if the referee gave it. At worst, they could then have a sensible discussion about it. The question the VAR should always be asking is “do I think that’s a foul”. If they disagree with the onfield ref, then it should be a discussion with the benefit of all replays. Do away with this “clear and obvious” nonsense.
 
Whilst this is just Oliver getting it completely wrong (due to bias or otherwise), the Webb quotes still emphasis the overall problem. On one hand, he says that he thinks a penalty shouldn’t be given. On the other, he says it’s the onfield referee’s call.

The correct answer is that the VAR should have been concluding that it wasn’t a foul and should have been intervening if the referee gave it. At worst, they could then have a sensible discussion about it. The question the VAR should always be asking is “do I think that’s a foul”. If they disagree with the onfield ref, then it should be a discussion with the benefit of all replays. Do away with this “clear and obvious” nonsense.

Yeah he's a twat who just wants less intervention. If the ref called it as a pen in real-time, he'd also have been happy if the VAR didn't get involved.
 
How are they missing the contact on the ball from De Ligt? The one time a VAR call would actually benefit from a slower, frame by frame replay and they don’t give one. It’s not a foul even if he doesn’t touch the ball, but the fact he does makes it more baffling.

Then you have the fact that they pulled play back for it retrospectively - when you think about some of the stuff var let’s go because ‘sorry, not obvious enough - even if it is blatantly the wrong decision’. I thought they wanted a high bar for intervention?

Then to spend ages convincing themselves it’s a pen when it clearly isn’t. Showing the wrong angle, ignoring contact on the ball, and making shit up. It’s really hard not to think there’s something suspect going on there.
 
Typical bs. Starts with telling us how good at his job Oliver is. Then makes a wishy washy assessment all to down play the fact that it's one of the most baffling decisions that everyone has ridiculed.

He should have said this is the perfect example of how VAR shouldn't work, that there's no version of reality where this should even be considered a penalty and they'll be using it as a training opportunity to make sure the VAR doesn't make such a horribly bad decision again.
 
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Where?

WEBB'S VERDICT:

I thought it was a misread by the VAR Michael Oliver. A VAR who is normally very talented and reliable. He got uber-focused in this situation with De Ligt's leg.

His leg coming through onto Danny Ings, not making any contact with the ball. The VAR sees that as a clear foul but I don't think he should get involved.

I think this is a situation where you leave the on-field decision as it is, probably whichever way it's called. VAR got too focused on the swinging leg from De Ligt.

Referees are told they are within their rights to stick to their original decision but of course, when they are sent to the screen, they are going because the VAR has identified what they perceive is an error. That judgment might be wrong, as it was in this case. They need to still look at the monitor with fresh eyes and make a call.

I feel like he thought that in there because of all the stick that Oliver has been taking from fans. He just had to defend him, although he’s very inconsistent with his officiating and tends to lean in certain sides favour.
 
The cnut Oliver literally says " This is the best angle for the contact" He's trying to push for a penalty and is showing the ref the best angle to make his case. If that is not VAR re reffing the game( in this case incorrectly) then what is?
 
Oliver is one of the worst 'big match' referees in the last 25 years
 
Oliver is one of the worst 'big match' referees in the last 25 years
That depends on what teams you support.

We really should be calling this out. Klopp, Fergie, Mourinho would all mention this and keep it in the news. At the very least it would ensure we don't get Oliver again anytime soon, which in of itself will help our results.
 
It's weird seeing that VAR chat. It's clearly not meant to arrive at the correct decision because in that case they would discuss openly whether what happened constituted a foul and looking at all available evidence.
 
I still don't get why VAR is used to look for fouls and often to negatively influence games. Nobody wanted it for that.

Nobody wanted it to determine whether someone's nipple had strayed offside either, but here we are.
 
Seems like a good example of how VAR ought to be pproviding the best possible info to the ref but are instead just pushing their own angle.

Some day we'll see a ref go to the screen, be shown multiple angles and stick to the original decision. Seems very far away with this generation of referees.
 
Whilst this is just Oliver getting it completely wrong (due to bias or otherwise), the Webb quotes still emphasis the overall problem. On one hand, he says that he thinks a penalty shouldn’t be given. On the other, he says it’s the onfield referee’s call.

The correct answer is that the VAR should have been concluding that it wasn’t a foul and should have been intervening if the referee gave it. At worst, they could then have a sensible discussion about it. The question the VAR should always be asking is “do I think that’s a foul”. If they disagree with the onfield ref, then it should be a discussion with the benefit of all replays. Do away with this “clear and obvious” nonsense.

Never mind doing away with clear and obvious. How about doing away with VAR? Seems like the best solution to me. Because, yet again, the most controversial VAR incident of the weekend involves a referee getting the call right in real time. Which has been a theme of all the most egregious VAR interventions.
 
Seems like a good example of how VAR ought to be pproviding the best possible info to the ref but are instead just pushing their own angle.

Some day we'll see a ref go to the screen, be shown multiple angles and stick to the original decision. Seems very far away with this generation of referees.
Definitely. Case in point the West Ham one, Coote is shown an angle that clearly shows contact on the ball from De Ligt, then doesn't show it again saying the other angle 'is the best one', which is just blatantly false. Whole thing is a nonsense. I've said for ages, VAR should only interfere if there is a red card issue the ref has missed. Otherwise, everything is the refs call unless he himself wants something checked. The fact semi automated offsides are coming in will also help. They've mucked the whole operation up so badly.
 
Never mind doing away with clear and obvious. How about doing away with VAR? Seems like the best solution to me. Because, yet again, the most controversial VAR incident of the weekend involves a referee getting the call right in real time. Which has been a theme of all the most egregious VAR interventions.
The Southampton one? Aye that was a farce. If there is even a foul there it's on the Southampton player!
 
Have Webb and Oliver apologised to the club and Ten Hag yet?

I’ll give Coote a pass because he probably has his hands full at the minute but if this were Arsenal or Liverpool the other two would be publicly apologising, sending flowers and a Nando’s voucher.
 
Definitely. Case in point the West Ham one, Coote is shown an angle that clearly shows contact on the ball from De Ligt, then doesn't show it again saying the other angle 'is the best one', which is just blatantly false. Whole thing is a nonsense. I've said for ages, VAR should only interfere if there is a red card issue the ref has missed. Otherwise, everything is the refs call unless he himself wants something checked. The fact semi automated offsides are coming in will also help. They've mucked the whole operation up so badly.

Even that is a shambles. As per Bruno being incorrectly sent off against Spurs. A call the ref got right in real time. Just bin the fecking thing. It would improve football no end.
 
Even that is a shambles. As per Bruno being incorrectly sent off against Spurs. A call the ref got right in real time. Just bin the fecking thing. It would improve football no end.
Indeed! But as I mentioned to B20, this nonsense of not even showing the refs all angles is something that could be rectified immediately, they literally just have to show the refs. But aye I'm tired of the whole thing.

I hate going on about refs but I can't believe no one has even apologised for that West Ham one.
 
Some day we'll see a ref go to the screen, be shown multiple angles and stick to the original decision. Seems very far away with this generation of referees.
Yes, this is maddening and these insights into how it’s being deployed make it so obvious. The point of VAR should be to give the on-pitch referee the best information to make a decision. Instead it’s used to nudge them towards a pre-determined decision. And it’s so glaring I can’t believe it isn’t causing an uproar.

If you’re not gonna abolish VAR altogether, which would by far be the best thing for football, I still think it would be better to give the referee three angles in real time. They can see each angle once and then must make a decision within 30 seconds. If you can’t make a decision based on that, the call stands as it’s obviously not a clear error.
 
I imagine there's also the untold pressure and ego of not wanting to be the first VAR to be overruled.
Everytime the ref is sent to the monitor, it's an automatic change to the initial decision.
I can't think of a single event where the opposite has occurred.

Also, all this refs and decisions talk over the past few days has got wondering if there is or should be an independent party that does a check the checker type audit on refs decision making. One that looks at events beyond a singular match, identifying gaps in knowledge, behaviour pattern, baises etc. I'll be curious to know if a ref has a tendency to make certain decisions, e.g. in the 50/50 type situation outside a small sample size. I suspect there's plenty of insight to be gained there.
 
You can hear Cootes voice break when he realises he's going to have to give the penalty. He knows he's making the wrong decision and goes with Oliver anyway.

How bad a referee do you have to be to give that after watching it on VAR? I've watched 100 times and both their knees collide. Coote even asks "is he in control of the ball" and that's conveniently ignored - he's NEVER in control of the ball. It's a 50/50. If anything it's a foul on de Ligt because it's out of control.

Absolutely shocking decision and I can only see that penalty happening if a referee -wants- it to be given, in short given the context - if they want us to lose.

It's absolutely scandalous that Michael Oliver will still have a job after this.
 
Yes, this is maddening and these insights into how it’s being deployed make it so obvious. The point of VAR should be to give the on-pitch referee the best information to make a decision. Instead it’s used to nudge them towards a pre-determined decision. And it’s so glaring I can’t believe it isn’t causing an uproar.

If you’re not gonna abolish VAR all-together, which would by far be the best thing for football, I still think it would be better to give the referee three angles in real time. They can see each angle once and then must make a decision within 30 seconds. If you can’t make a decision based on that, the call stands as it’s obviously not a clear error.

I don’t understand why some feel introducing more criterias will solve anything.

The rules are the same for everyone, so what you want is for the rules to be applied the same way for everyone.

The entire problem continues to be this absurd focus on insisting that the referee’s initial decision on the pitch is a high quality decision that should only be undone if there’s been an obvious mistake. It’s led to an arbitrary threshold where all you end up with is an extreme lack of consistency, where it’s more important if it’s correct or not for VAR to intervene in a specific situation rather than if the VAR involvement led to the right decision.

It’s obviously not going to work very well considering the pace of football, it’s not easy to maintain full awareness at all time and make the right decision.

All you need to do is get rid of the clear and obvious threshold and introduce a bit of communication. You think there’s a foul in the build up but you’re not sure how much is in it, feck it i’ll wait and see how it pans out and then say that i want to review the build up. We’ve seen it quite a few times, especially with fouls on goalkeepers, where some referees let clear fouls slide and VAR doesn’t get involved because of the threshold, while other referees blow for pretty much feck all before the ball has hit the back of the net and then VAR can’t intervene anyway. We’ve been on the wrong end of that quite a few times in recent years, and it’s fairly fecking annoying to see a clear foul go unpunished because of an arbitrary threshold, while they then disallow a goal for a lot less than the one they allowed against you without VAR being able to do anything.

Bin the entire concept of referees working with their mates. Introduce specialized VAR training where you have people go through a program, where the main focus should be making sure that the referee on the pitch gets all the information he needs to make a sound decision.
 
Have Webb and Oliver apologised to the club and Ten Hag yet?

I’ll give Coote a pass because he probably has his hands full at the minute but if this were Arsenal or Liverpool the other two would be publicly apologising, sending flowers and a Nando’s voucher.

There’s been nothing in public. It’s funny to see Webb essentially say that Michael Oliver got it wrong on all accounts, that VAR intervened when it shouldn’t and that VAR reached the wrong conclusion as well, without there being any consequences. He was back as a referee for the following round.
 
That depends on what teams you support.

We really should be calling this out. Klopp, Fergie, Mourinho would all mention this and keep it in the news. At the very least it would ensure we don't get Oliver again anytime soon, which in of itself will help our results.
Yeah - the chat is "give the penalty" pretty much. He asks for a better angle - nothing. Oliver says "theres contact from de Ligt" as if there's no contact from the West Ham player I forget the name of. He asks if they're in control of the ball - ignored.

Just a really, really strange process if nothing else, and shambolic.
 
I imagine there's also the untold pressure and ego of not wanting to be the first VAR to be overruled.
Everytime the ref is sent to the monitor, it's an automatic change to the initial decision.
I can't think of a single event where the opposite has occurred.

Also, all this refs and decisions talk over the past few days has got wondering if there is or should be an independent party that does a check the checker type audit on refs decision making. One that looks at events beyond a singular match, identifying gaps in knowledge, behaviour pattern, baises etc. I'll be curious to know if a ref has a tendency to make certain decisions, e.g. in the 50/50 type situation outside a small sample size. I suspect there's plenty of insight to be gained there.

The problem is that because of an arbitrary threshold you won’t get far. You can easily point out an interesting pattern, but when you’re forced to take into account «clear and obvious» there’s obviously grounds to claim that the decision was «correct»

I would however start with Michael Oliver and go over all his matches as VAR as a start.
 
In all that evidence shouldn’t the club intervene and ask for that cûnt not to officiate our match on and off the pitch? I mean its clearly bias
 
Where do you guys hear all the chat between ref and VAR? I feel sorry for Coote, by the way.
 
That ref was a clown as well. Kept saying the same thing over and over again. If you're too scared to do your job then quit.
 
Why are we even surprised? We know how we are treated by referees and media. We have lost so many points that it is ridiculous and our leaders and club is just silent. They need to demand explainations. They need to ban people from Old Trafford. They need to tell referees that next time we have crazy decisions we are pulling out our team so they can finnish game by themself.