Variable Formation Draft: Gio vs Pat

Who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    11
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,412
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
VS

........................................................... TEAM GIO ...................................................................................................................................... TEAM PAT ...........................................................


TEAM GIO

Nailing the Diamond

Firstly, the diamond is a very Serie A esque formation and as such we have used a set of players who have shone in the narrower shapes of Italian football:
  • Zidane
  • Nedved
  • Matthaus and Brehme
  • Souness
  • Cannavaro

Secondly, it is about getting the key roles right:
  • Two side midfielders who are physical, mobile and expansive. Lothar Matthaus and Pavel Nedved fit the bill.
  • Attack-minded full-backs from the top shelf. Brehme and Carlos Alberto are ideal in their playmaking and general class on the ball.
  • Mobile forwards who can work the line. Mbappe can operate across the attack, while Spencer should feel at home in a counter-attacking set up with shades of his successful partnership with Joya.
  • A 10 in Zidane who knows the system inside out having played much of his best football in that or in its close neighbours the 4321/4312. Zidane always enjoyed the platform provided by Davids/Deschamps or Petit/Vieira and gets plenty of support from Souness/Matthaus here.

Thirdly, it is about aligning the tactics with the strengths of the shape. The beauty of the diamond is how well it strangles the midfield. That takes control of the game and makes the counter attack very dangerous. Firstly through the more obvious route to goal by inviting space in behind for the specialists in Mbappe and Spencer to tear into - with Brehme, Carlos Alberto and Souness pinging early balls into space. And secondly by the concentration of central players allowing a quick one-two and, bang, away goes Nedved, Zidane and Matthaus motoring to the edge of the opposition box.



TEAM PAT


Formation: 4-2-3-1



Having prioritised attaining an elite level of attacking threat and one-man flank-ery from my FBs during the first half of drafting, it's safe to say that 4-2-3-1 was the formation I wanted least. A 'Road To Damascus' moment towards the end of drafting, as I wondered why on earth Thomas Muller wasn't already picked in a draft that placed such premium on versatility, and it swiftly became the one I wanted most. Goofy and inelegant he may be, but Muller just gets football like few others. Over the last three seasons for Bayern he's registered 25, 24 and 26 assists respectively, averaging 0.53 assists per match. He's won a Golden Boot and a Silver Boot at successive World Cups, and he's apparently the most successful German footballer ever in terms of trophies won. He's a prodigious worker in and out of possession, scoring highly on total distance covered and averaging in and around 20 pressures per match according to fbref.com. His technical and athletic limitations are lavishly compensated for here, with searing pace across the frontline, a host of excellent dribblers, and a genius creator alongside him in Laudrup. And Muller, in turn, will elevate their level too, just as he's done for club and country for over a decade now.

Defence: Arguably the greatest ever GK in Buffon, and ahead of him a complementary ball-player/stopper combo of Moore and Campbell. Two attacking FBs in Dani Alves and Robertson, with the horrible bastard Robertson playing a key tactical role here in possession by freeing up Laudrup to drift infield when he wants. There's quite a clear Arsenal Invincibles dynamic to this left wing, with Robertson overlapping à la Cole (I'd argue that he's probably surpassed him in an attacking sense), Laudrup as a souped-up Pires, and Henry doing Henry stuff.

Midfield: Keane and Verratti form the double pivot. Both are entirely comfortable on either side, so Keane starts on the left of the duo to provide cover to the defensively more vulnerable wing. Verratti is picked here ahead of Stielike, and I even drafted him ahead of much more draft-friendly options such as Schuster and Overath. Tenacious, intelligent and ridiculously press-resistant, he's simply one of my favourite midfielders ever at this point and he fits my requirements to a tee - with an abundance of final-third creativity through my FBs and attacking line we need steady, incisive service to them from central midfield. That was Keane's bread-and-butter, and as for Verratti:



Attack: Some might baulk at Laudrup being 'relegated' to a wide position on the teamsheet, but with Henry's inclination towards peeling to the left, Robertson's relentless overlapping, and Muller's capacity to occupy Gio's grisly central midfielders, this roaming wide playmaker role looks tailor-made for him. Henry should relish playing with a final third passer of his calibre, and finding Eto'o or Dani Alves with a diagonal through ball is another highly promising option for Laudrup. Poor Sami draws the short straw here as he reprises something closer to his Inter role than his Barca CF peak, but then that positional versatility and fierce workrate is precisely why I picked him ahead of other comparable goalscorers. He'll be tasked with supporting Dani Alves in the defensive phase much like he did for Maicon at Inter, and of course he's familiar with Alves, having shared that immensely successful 08-09 season together at Barca.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,327
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Souness at the base is as sore as Laudrup on the left.
Nah, Souness looks absolutely fine there. He was always the most defensively disciplined midfielder for Liverpool and Scotland. He partnered Terry McDermott who was a very attack-minded box-to-box player. Therefore he had to hold the midfield and ensure he was behind the ball at most times. That’s not to say he couldn’t play box-to-box himself, but I think of all the great British and Irish central midfielders (let’s say Robbo, Keane, Bremner, Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard) he was the most positionally natural with a more defensive brief (Mackay quite similar too).

Interestingly I remember him bristling at the modern obsession with designated and limited DMs. He spoke of his own role, taking the ball off the keeper or centre-halves, dropping into the hole and allowing the full-backs to push on. Which seems pretty much textbook for a diamond.

And of course he has all the qualities you’d want in that role - defensively robust, physical when he needs to be, great passing range, and a forensic reading of the game to snuff out danger.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,969
Souness is fine there. Even the Liverpool version played very much like a DM. He got forward a bit but was really a cultured DM from the stuff I have seen. He was not like the all action Robbo running up and down for 90 mins.

I'm less convinced with Carlos Alberto at RB. He was really a playmaking RB and didn't get forward that much. I remember watching the an all-touch compilation of all his games in 1970 and he didn't cross the half way line much.

You can of course make the claim he could play this role but he didn't seem the most athletic to play such a physically demanding role.

I would have gone a little unorthodox and played Carlos Alberto as an inverted full right back who moves into RCM to unleash Matthaus to roam around the right.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,804
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Souness at the base is as sore as Laudrup on the left.
They're both grand there.

You seem to be looking at Laudrup's position and ignoring everything around him. He has a left-footed LB who will overlap tirelessly, Henry who loved to peel out to the left, and Muller inside him who is about as selfless and non ball-dominant as it gets in that position. Not to mention that Laudrup himself was lethal in those inside and outside left channels:


The full thing is worth watching but I time-stamped this @Joga Bonito special to the second half, where he carves open Juve firstly with some gorgeous wing-play culminating with a left-footed cross to assist Stoichkov, and later by cutting in from wide-left to deliver a right-footed through ball to provide a second assist for Stoichkov. If anything he might welcome finding himself nominally positioned further away from the suffocating presence of Souness. In more general terms the pace and creativity that we have in those wide areas looks potentially crucial in pulling that very strong diamond out of shape.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,327
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Souness is fine there. Even the Liverpool version played very much like a DM. He got forward a bit but was really a cultured DM from the stuff I have seen. He was not like the all action Robbo running up and down for 90 mins.

I'm less convinced with Carlos Alberto at RB. He was really a playmaking RB and didn't get forward that much. I remember watching the an all-touch compilation of all his games in 1970 and he didn't cross the half way line much.

You can of course make the claim he could play this role but he didn't seem the most athletic to play such a physically demanding role.

I would have gone a little unorthodox and played Carlos Alberto as an inverted full right back who moves into RCM to unleash Matthaus to roam around the right.
That may well happen instinctively. Matthaus will want to get on his bike and create angles, while Mbappe would stretch the width of the attack as well. That right flank was chosen as a unit to ensure there was loads of movement in front of Carlos Alberto. I think it would be more of an issue with a more static pair of players in front of him, but Matthaus and Mbappe are a long, long way from that. For what it’s worth, you could have the same dynamic on the other flank with Brehme and Nedved kriss-crossing to disrupt the opposition.

As for Carlos Alberto’s style, initially I had the same reservation, but having consulted the authority on him over on Raees’ site, I’m more than comfortable with him in a role that combines attacking and defensive responsibility.

Pythagoras in Boots said:
It has been said about Carlos Alberto that the famous goal he scored against Italy was a tad out of character, he was more of a safety first full-back who had played as a sweeper and he wasn't that much of an overlapping full back - compared to the mythical pioneer Nilton Santos of the 1958 side (who played at left back). Nothing could be further from the truth, as Carlos Alberto's goal record was superior to that of Facchetti (for club and country) and just short of Roberto Carlos (4 goals shy of the bullet man's career total). The goal record alone was evidence of his attacking brilliance but watching him game after game in the 1970 World Cup, repeatedly making that same run which got him the fourth goal vs Italy reiterates that his overlapping skills were up there with the best. What let him down slightly was his crossing ability, which didn't have the same variety or whip that Cafu possessed.


Aside from his penetrative impact in the final third, Carlos Alberto's playmaking from the back was arguably his true stand out attribute. His long passing was outstanding - he could split defences with 60 yard passes perfectly placed behind centre-backs and their full-backs wreaking havoc and his decision-making in possession was excellent. He rarely passed back and was instead trusted to dictate the tempo from his berth on the right, slowly teasing and carving through lines of pressure with his clever use of the ball. His long shooting was also solid and he packed a punch, with a fair amount of accuracy.


Defensively, Alberto was an all-round athlete, relatively quick, agile, strong and with fast reactions. This allied to his superlative football brain meant he was very hard to beat and his performances at centre back and as a sweeper proved that he was a defensive force to be reckoned with.
https://pythagorasinboots.com/carlos-alberto-rating/
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,969
.As for Carlos Alberto’s style, initially I had the same reservation, but having consulted the authority on him over on Raees’ site, I’m more than comfortable with him in a role that combines attacking and defensive responsibility.
I don't buy Raees' argument that much. Whilst he scored more than Facchetti we need to know how he scored to be useful - it may well have been from set pieces. Also I don't see much evidence of him overlapping in 1970. That said I do think your right side does work well with Matthaus and Mbappe.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,524
Not an obvious choice by any means - but I went for Gio.

I think he's ever so slightly ahead in terms of having the right players for the provided formation (and there isn't any huge gap in overall quality here, as I see it, so it has to come down to details).
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,804
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
EDIT: Didn't realize I made it a draw...sorry, Mustard!
:lol: No problem at all mate. I didn't vote to see the score for ages and struggled to muster up the enthusiasm to post as I was pretty much convinced this was a lost cause, hence trying to address the main potential arguments against my set up in the write-up rather than in the thread. Was surprised to find myself clinging to a narrow lead for so long. I had one of those drafting processes where I felt I was playing catch up for most of it, and even though I liked the finished squad I knew it was highly unlikely to be a vote magnet.

I went with the set-up I liked, namely playing the splendid Verratti, placing Muller in his best role, and keeping Henry as the CF and primary goalscorer, but if I was in a more pragmatic mood I fancy this might have been the better vote-winner:

Buffon
Alves Campbell Moore Robertson
Keane Stielike
Muller Laudrup Henry
Eto'o
Well played @Gio . Lovely team, and Matthaus as first pick and Nedved as a fecking 6th pick was typically excellent drafting.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,524
I fancy this might have been the better vote-winner:

Buffon
Alves Campbell Moore Robertson
Keane Stielike
Muller Laudrup Henry
Eto'o​
Yep...yep.

But then again - why not experiment a bit?

I feel exactly the same way as you with regard to playing catch-up - sort of stumbling along, landing 2nd choices all the way.

Partly because of the draft order - but also because I'm rusty and simply made some stupid choices along the way.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,642
:lol: No problem at all mate. I didn't vote to see the score for ages and struggled to muster up the enthusiasm to post as I was pretty much convinced this was a lost cause, hence trying to address the main potential arguments against my set up in the write-up rather than in the thread. Was surprised to find myself clinging to a narrow lead for so long. I had one of those drafting processes where I felt I was playing catch up for most of it, and even though I liked the finished squad I knew it was highly unlikely to be a vote magnet.

I went with the set-up I liked, namely playing the splendid Verratti, placing Muller in his best role, and keeping Henry as the CF and primary goalscorer, but if I was in a more pragmatic mood I fancy this might have been the better vote-winner:

Buffon
Alves Campbell Moore Robertson
Keane Stielike
Muller Laudrup Henry
Eto'o
Well played @Gio . Lovely team, and Matthaus as first pick and Nedved as a fecking 6th pick was typically excellent drafting.
team you picked is better, though this one is probably more of a vote winner as wing Henry is overrated as feck.
 

Himannv

Full Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
5,789
Location
Somewhere in the draft forum
:lol: No problem at all mate. I didn't vote to see the score for ages and struggled to muster up the enthusiasm to post as I was pretty much convinced this was a lost cause, hence trying to address the main potential arguments against my set up in the write-up rather than in the thread. Was surprised to find myself clinging to a narrow lead for so long. I had one of those drafting processes where I felt I was playing catch up for most of it, and even though I liked the finished squad I knew it was highly unlikely to be a vote magnet.

I went with the set-up I liked, namely playing the splendid Verratti, placing Muller in his best role, and keeping Henry as the CF and primary goalscorer, but if I was in a more pragmatic mood I fancy this might have been the better vote-winner:

Buffon
Alves Campbell Moore Robertson
Keane Stielike
Muller Laudrup Henry
Eto'o
Well played @Gio . Lovely team, and Matthaus as first pick and Nedved as a fecking 6th pick was typically excellent drafting.
Yeah, I kept wondering why you didn't just do this.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,804
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
team you picked is better, though this one is probably more of a vote winner as wing Henry is overrated as feck.
Agreed on both counts.

Yeah, I kept wondering why you didn't just do this.
I just couldn't pass up on playing Verratti, and the 'own worst enemy' decision making just spiralled from there :D
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,327
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Nice team @Pat_Mustard. 4231 was a wee bit awkward as you didn’t quite have a seamless left sided attacking midfielder. That said, I don’t mind the use of Laudrup in a wider gig. He always roamed all over the attack and did a lot of great work in wider areas, as Harms’ video this week showed. In a 4231 I prefer Henry central too for what it’s worth, so I think that was the right call. And collectively those three - Laudrup, Muller and Eto’o - are very effective in understanding their role in a team, adapting their game and getting the best out of others. Verratti worth his place too and can see him buzzing off Keane and those two working well together.

And apologies for the lack of posting yesterday, I was about 10 pints deep by the time this game reached its closing stages.