Venezuela – socialist paradise on the verge of collapse

PedroMendez

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So after 18 years in power the authoritarian, leftist populist government has led Venezuela to the brink of collapse.
Maduro gave a pretty belligerent speech where he blamed anyone else(opposition; us imperialists) for their failure and announce more oppression.
They ruined the economy to the point where they are completely dependent on oil revenue to pay for basic needs. The collapse of the oil price was the death sentence for the country.

They severely damaged democratic institutions to stay in power. Many employees have extended holidays or only work few days a week because there is not enough electricity, money and resources to work full time. Schools are getting closed. Foot, water, medicine and basics goods are scarce. Hyper-inflation is skyrocketing and an economic and humanitarian disaster is unavoidable. The public health system is breaking down, while the Zika virus is running wild. Violence and criminality further increase. The whole thing could get even uglier, if the government uses the military/militias to cling on to their power.

Just another example of an irresponsible leftist governments that ruined a country while claiming to help the poor. All those “great successes” and handouts will be lost and the poor will suffer the most. The “socialism of the 21. century” is failing just like the old one, because it is unsustainable. Centrally planned economies don´t work. Maybe the continent and leftist movements could learn a lesson or two from this episode.
 

adexkola

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Economy based on oil collapsing due to record low oil prices: shocker. It's happening in Russia and Nigeria and Angola and other countries too stupid to diversify and limit their exposure to volatile commodity markets. Yeah centrally planned economies aren't that great but I don't think that is the lesson to take away from Venezuela's predicaments.

Also,

Maybe the continent and leftist movements could learn a lesson or two from this episode.
Can't say Latin America has had many great success economic stories regardless of whether their economies were centrally planned or market pushed. Brazil was supposed to be the next power then...
 

horsechoker

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So after 18 years in power the authoritarian, leftist populist government has led Venezuela to the brink of collapse.
Maduro gave a pretty belligerent speech where he blamed anyone else(opposition; us imperialists) for their failure and announce more oppression.
They ruined the economy to the point where they are completely dependent on oil revenue to pay for basic needs. The collapse of the oil price was the death sentence for the country.

They severely damaged democratic institutions to stay in power. Many employees have extended holidays or only work few days a week because there is not enough electricity, money and resources to work full time. Schools are getting closed. Foot, water, medicine and basics goods are scarce. Hyper-inflation is skyrocketing and an economic and humanitarian disaster is unavoidable. The public health system is breaking down, while the Zika virus is running wild. Violence and criminality further increase. The whole thing could get even uglier, if the government uses the military/militias to cling on to their power.

Just another example of an irresponsible leftist governments that ruined a country while claiming to help the poor. All those “great successes” and handouts will be lost and the poor will suffer the most. The “socialism of the 21. century” is failing just like the old one, because it is unsustainable. Centrally planned economies don´t work. Maybe the continent and leftist movements could learn a lesson or two from this episode.
Woah, woah, woah! Only the right can be authoritarian:nono:
 

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Can't say Latin America has had many great success economic stories regardless of whether their economies were centrally planned or market pushed. Brazil was supposed to be the next power then...
Then they got a leftist government :D
 

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Then they got a leftist government :D
And what caused them to elect Chavez in the first place? It´s not like the place was a rightist success, and if not for oil revenues, it would´ve been a basket case.

Obvious failure from the beginning, getting behind the mentally ill Chavez and adapting ridiculous, outdated Cuban style idiocy.
 

PedroMendez

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Economy based on oil collapsing due to record low oil prices: shocker. It's happening in Russia and Nigeria and Angola and other countries too stupid to diversify and limit their exposure to volatile commodity markets. Yeah centrally planned economies aren't that great but I don't think that is the lesson to take away from Venezuela's predicaments.

Also,



Can't say Latin America has had many great success economic stories regardless of whether their economies were centrally planned or market pushed. Brazil was supposed to be the next power then...
The economy is so underdeveloped because of their ill-advised policy that destroyed almost every competitive business while substituting its output with government rents (financed by oil and few monopolies).

Even 5 or 6 years ago Venezuela was hailed as great example for a new socialist regime that is finally able to defeat those pesky rich guys, while helping the poor. What is happening at the moment was inevitable and anyone who paid attention could see it from miles away. State-led economic development has been one of the biggest evils in Latin America for the last 65 years. It failed almost every single time regardless of the political leadership (right wing military rule or left wing populists). That doesn´t mean that misguided economic policies are the only problem in Latin America. Still they are one of the biggest problems around and it always seems to be able to make a comeback.


edit:

It is mind-boggling that in the current age people are still unable to understand the basic need for a free market economy. That doesn´t mean that social policies (e.g. redistribution or even extreme policies like land-reforms) can´t be a part of a working economy. They clearly can, when implemented properly. Yet the basic principle has to be, that individuals are the driving force behind economic development. States can´t do it and they fail every single time when they try it.
 
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Scarecrow

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And what caused them to elect Chavez in the first place? It´s not like the place was a rightist success, and if not for oil revenues, it would´ve been a basket case.

Obvious failure from the beginning, getting behind the mentally ill Chavez and adapting ridiculous, outdated Cuban style idiocy.
Think he was referring to Brazil.
 

BringNaniBack

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The US getting Saudi Arabia to over produce oil to damage Russia has taken its toll on all of the oil producing nations and the weaker economy's are the first to collapse in the likes of Venuzuela. I was watching a documentary on Venezuela the other day and there is so much hyperinflation you literally have to carry around a rucksack full of cash to buy a meal.

It wont be long before the EU and the rest of the west faces economic collapse anyway.
 

adexkola

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The economy is so underdeveloped because of their ill-advised policy that destroyed almost every competitive business while substituting its output with government rents (financed by oil and few monopolies).

Even 5 or 6 years ago Venezuela was hailed as great example for a new socialist regime that is finally able to defeat those pesky rich guys, while helping the poor. What is happening at the moment was inevitable and anyone who paid attention could see it from miles away.
State-led economic development has been one of the biggest evils in Latin America for the last 65 years. It failed almost every single time regardless of the political leadership (right wing military rule or left wing populists). That doesn´t mean that misguided economic policies are the only problem in Latin America. Still they are one of the biggest problems around and it always seems to be able to make a comeback.


edit:

It is mind-boggling that in the current age people are still unable to understand the basic need for a free market economy. That doesn´t mean that social policies (e.g. redistribution or even extreme policies like land-reforms) can´t be a part of a working economy. They clearly can, when implemented properly. Yet the basic principle has to be, that individuals are the driving force behind economic development. States can´t do it and they fail every single time when they try it.
I'm with you man, but the same result has happened in free market economies with lopsided volatile sources of revenue, hence my original post. I'm just being a pedantic cnut agreeing with your conclusion but not your methods.
 

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How does Venezuela get out of this? Does it? Or is it destined to be kind of like Cuba?
 

MTF

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Doh! Same thing though, what made Brazil elect a Lula government? Which didn´t seem that bad comparatively.

Or maybe what Brazil needed was the Kissinger inspired right wing dictatorships of yore.
A quick comment on this: after PT got elected for a 4th term I think me and most politically aware and not full-leftist Brazilians became acutely aware of the problems created by political hegemony. So applying this backwards, even though I didn't want Lula to win in 2002 it was probably a healthy event for the country on the longer term, keeping PSDB from a 3rd term. What might've kept a healthy trend going was PSDB or another candidate winning in 2006, when PT's initial corruption scandals were being found out. By the time 2010 rolled around with 8% GDP growth, there was no stopping PT and the damage of hegemony was set up. Which brought us to the events of 2014, 15 and 16, where we've now had to have government change without elections.
 

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How does Venezuela get out of this? Does it? Or is it destined to be kind of like Cuba?
I can´t see how either. But I don´t see how this will be settled peacefully or it would simply turn into a Cuba. Things are ready to come to a head. It could be really bad as these sort of militias in the low barrios may be armed and this could get really bloody. We´re a bit nervous here in Colombia for what could be a sudden massive migration.
 

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I can´t see how either. But I don´t see how this will be settled peacefully or it would simply turn into a Cuba. Things are ready to come to a head. It could be really bad as these sort of militias in the low barrios may be armed and this could get really bloody. We´re a bit nervous here in Colombia for what could be a sudden massive migration.
That could be rough.

The problem with the free market though is that it's based on growth at all costs which can't be sustainable either, can it?
That's a problem that advanced countries like the US and W Europe have to struggle with. Developing countries should grow, its the only way they'll get out of the state of general poverty. Not saying there isn't inequality, but when a country like Venezuela or Brazil have flat or negative GDP per capita, it just means that their general population are getting farther from a life inline with developed countries.
 

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Always needs to be a healthy balance, with sufficient regulations in place.
I'm a bit of an idiot with this sort of thing but from what I've heard the banking system has started to gamble with mortgage bonds in much the same way that caused the crash in 2008. So I guess the current system is nowhere near perfect either?
 

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I'm a bit of an idiot with this sort of thing but from what I've heard the banking system has started to gamble with mortgage bonds in much the same way that caused the crash in 2008. So I guess the current system is nowhere near perfect either?
Its car loans this time. But like I said, regarding a Venezuela its nowhere near the developing world discussion "do we need freer or more controlled markets". The discussion is at the "do we have functioning society and government?" level.
 

PedroMendez

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How does Venezuela get out of this? Does it? Or is it destined to be kind of like Cuba?
They have to hit rock bottom first. They are fairly close so; the current situation is way too dramatic. They´ll literally run out foot soon, because they can´t produce anywhere near enough for their own population. Even in the fall/winter of 2014 stuff like milk and meat where scarce. Without the oil revenue, they can´t import enough foot.
Hitting rock bottom will lead either to a very repressive dictatorship of the current regime or to regime change (much more likely). The next leadership could open the economy to international market to attract foreign investment and help. Only a huge increase of the oil price can really save the current system (and that is not going to happen anytime soon).

I'm with you man, but the same result has happened in free market economies with lopsided volatile sources of revenue, hence my original post. I'm just being a pedantic cnut agreeing with your conclusion but not your methods.
usually this very singular focus on one industry is result of failed government intervention and misguided protectionism. Leftist governments aren´t the only guys, who believe in state led economic development. Import substitution industrialization (ISI) was very popular in post WWII right wing military dictatorships. Even the so-called neo-liberals that controlled various governments in the 90s used protectionism and subsidies for key industries. Privatization went hand in hand was privileges; not with open markets and competition.
Governments, that were committed to free markets and sound fiscal policies usually did a lot better. They might have suffered from other ills, like corruption, but that is a problem in all countries and all governments.

Doh! Same thing though, what made Brazil elect a Lula government? Which didn´t seem that bad comparatively.

Or maybe what Brazil needed was the Kissinger inspired right wing dictatorships of yore.
PT in Brazil continued with fairly strict fiscal and monetary policy for the first 6-7 years (which is quite unusual for leftist governments). Lula published a letter in 2002 (Carta aos Brasileiros), where he promised to stick to the same solid fiscal policy, that was introduced in 1994/5/6 by the previous government(s). PT was able to show some success precisely because they were committed to a free market economy (at least to some extend), while combining that with more transparency and less cronyism than their predecessors. On the other side, what happened to Petrobas is a perfect example why the governments should stay out of the economy. They follow terrible incentives and after more than 12 years in government they ended up just as bad as the rest.
 

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The US getting Saudi Arabia to over produce oil to damage Russia has taken its toll on all of the oil producing nations and the weaker economy's are the first to collapse in the likes of Venuzuela.
:lol:I take it you realise that Opec's stubbornness over output has hurt the US too?
 

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The US getting Saudi Arabia to over produce oil to damage Russia has taken its toll on all of the oil producing nations and the weaker economy's are the first to collapse in the likes of Venuzuela. I was watching a documentary on Venezuela the other day and there is so much hyperinflation you literally have to carry around a rucksack full of cash to buy a meal.

It wont be long before the EU and the rest of the west faces economic collapse anyway.
:lol:
 

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The US getting Saudi Arabia to over produce oil to damage Russia has taken its toll on all of the oil producing nations and the weaker economy's are the first to collapse in the likes of Venuzuela
And greatly damage the US fracking industry costing tens of thousands of jobs in a major growth sector of the American economy. The number of oil rigs in production in the US fell by 61% over the course of 2015.
 

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And greatly damage the US fracking industry costing tens of thousands of jobs in a major growth sector of the American economy. The number of oil rigs in production in the US fell by 61% over the course of 2015.
the issue with the fracking industry is, that technology improved a lot in very short time. Even a moderate rise of the price (to 40-45$) would make a lot of wells profitable again. One reason why I believe, that prices are going to stay low regardless of OPEC (that stopped de-facto to exist over a year ago and won´t come back) and regardless of China´s growth. A lot depends on how the loans for the fracking industry are going to be handled. This might create severe short-term pain, but it is hard to predict how those things play out.
 

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Wasn't the Latin/South American move to the left (history speaking, at least) somewhat of a feck you to their governments whom they've variously perceived (rightly too, in some cases) as having been American imposed puppet governments?

The problem these South American and Latin American have, is that there is a natural socialist element at play, but going too far to the left (Chavez) doesn't solve much because the world is run on a capitalist system. They'd be better off taking the Chinese as an example rather than the Cubans (in terms of population as much as anything else). You can have bits of both and still make it work. I know China is in a major recession at the moment, but there are other examples out there.

Still, the ideology of those on the far left leaves them completely unable to contemplate the possibility of a socialist state which adheres to certain capitalist principles. It is absolutely possible, despite the contradiction in terms.
 

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In the late 90s "neo-liberal" economic policies were implemented in many countries in accordance with the washington consensus (at least most people see it that way). Nafta, Mercosur and various other free trade agreements got a push. In the late 90s and early 00s most countries were fairly disappointed by these policies because the results didn´t live up to the expectations, so they voted for new leftist governments again. All that had little to do with the USA.
The USA did horrendous things in latin america and still continue to act very irresponsible at times (2009 Honduras), yet they are also a most welcome scapegoat when they are not involved. After the fall of the UDSSR they toned it down a bit and stopped toppling government left, right and centre.

In a way you could differentiate between two different paths of leftist ideology in the region. One path was influenced by socialism and communism and was rather international. They have good reasons to complain, are usually fairly idealistic and care genuinely about the well being of the people. Their policies might be misguided but they were usually committed to democracy and plurality. They often opposed military dictatorships and aligned themselves with the UDSSR (to some extend). Since the soviet union broke down, they often developed in a fairly moderate and positive way. Nowadays they are often organised in labour unions or social movements (landless, environmental stuff etc.pp) and care about social justice and inequality.

The other path has a strong nationalist identity and goes all the way back to the "legend" of simon Bolivar and other glorified figures of the 20th century like Lazaro Cardenaz (Mexiko) or Juan Peron (Argentina) - most countries have these crooks in their history and too many people pretend that they were great politicians. This always ends up in authoritarian regimes, that operate under the guise of some sort of leftist ideology, but in reality they are just self-serving, uber-nationalist dicks, who create a we vs them situation both in- and outside the country. Imperialists and capitalists are always to blame for everything. Velasco Ibarra famously said something like "give me a balcony and I will rule the country", (not sure about the exact translation into English) meaning that personal charisma and leadership are important and the people will happily follow. A bit like Trump just without the institutions, that can stop someone like him...

Obviously in reality there are always shades of grey and those distinctions can get blurry and are sometimes hard to make.
Without knowing much about him I´d put some like Allende (or nowadays the PT in brasil) in the first category, while someone like Chavez/Maduro or the de Kirchners are rather in the later.
 

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The US getting Saudi Arabia to over produce oil to damage Russia has taken its toll on all of the oil producing nations and the weaker economy's are the first to collapse in the likes of Venuzuela. I was watching a documentary on Venezuela the other day and there is so much hyperinflation you literally have to carry around a rucksack full of cash to buy a meal.

It wont be long before the EU and the rest of the west faces economic collapse anyway.
And at same time hurt us with our shale oil ?
 

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The problem with Latin America is the extreme corruption which is easy to win elections pretending they will help the poor (the majority), we have Brazil for example with Lula who was president in the past and from a 'poor' man now he's rich and involved in corruption.
 

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Just goes to show that any system of governance is susceptible to corruption if the wrong people are in charge.
 

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I just made this post on another message board, so I figured I'd add it here too in case anybody is interested.

I have done a lot of my research on (and in) Venezuela and follow this situation relatively closely. The sad fact is that nobody really knows what will happen. There are really four ways out of the current situation:

1. The opposition triggers the constitutional provision to hold a referendum to recall Maduro and the government allows them to hold it before Jan 10, 2017. If that happens, Maduro will almost certainly be recalled, a new presidential election will be held within 30 days, and the opposition candidate - most likely Henrique Capriles or Leopoldo Lopez (if he gets out of prison) - will almost certainly win. The recall referendum process is already underway. But the big problem is that there are many different stages (multiple processes of gathering and verifying signatures, etc) and, if the government can throw enough institutional obstacles in the way, such that the referendum occurs after Jan 10, 2017 (the midpoint of Maduro's term by some sketchy calculations), then the result will not be a new election but rather the sitting Vice President Aristobulo Isturiz taking power. That doesn't do anything for the opposition as Isturiz and Maduro are cut from the exact same cloth, both members of the ultra-left civilian wing of the Bolivarian Movement.

2. There is a popular uprising to oust the Maduro government. This could happen if the food shortages get bad enough, if the government does something particularly egregious to halt or delay the recall referendum, if the country's power problems intensify, or due to any number of other precipitating events. But there are a number of reasons to be skeptical about this happening. First, despite all he has done to absolutely light the country on fire, Maduro's approval rating this year has oscillated between about 25-33%, which may not sound very good but is actually higher than a number of other South American presidents. Essentially, the country is so insanely polarized that there is a hard core Chavista contingent that is likely to defend Maduro and the Bolivarian Revolution no matter what. And the presence of that 25-33% of the country provides a real bulwark against a mass uprising. Second, the opposition has tried to oust the government through mass mobilization or contentious action before - most notably during the 2002 coup, but also in the oil strike of early 2003 and the La Salida protests of 2014 - and failed to do so. The opposition took a reputational hit from those actions and there are groups within the opposition that want nothing to do with trying to organize a mass uprising, preferring to wait for the referendum process to play out or even the 2018 presidential elections. Finally, the government has shown increased willingness to use repression through the security forces to control mass mobilization. That can also backfire, and lead to more mobilization, but it also represents a deterrent that might lead people to think twice about participating in a mass movement toward Miraflores Palace.

3. There is a military coup against the Maduro government, perhaps occurring in tandem with a mass uprising or some other controversial event. This could happen if sectors within the military perceive the country's situation as so bad that displacing (and scapegoating) the Maduro government becomes their own best course of action. The problem with this scenario is that the military (at least at the level of high ranking officers) is almost 100% Bolivarian at this point. From its earliest days, the Bolivarian coalition at the elite level was a marriage between unscrupulous military officers and radical, left-wing civilians. For most of the Chavez years, the balance between these two was maintained by a very cynical pact: The left-wing civilians got to make policy and implement their vision of "Socialism in the 21st Century," but the highly interventionist economic model created massive opportunities for corruption and patronage and prominent military figures - or guys with backgrounds and deep connections in the military establishment - were given positions that allowed them to exploit the corruption opportunities to the fullest. At the same time, Chavez purged officers from the military with questionable political sympathies while also greatly expanding the number of generals, using these appointments as patronage and filing the ranks with loyalists. So there are a great many influential people within the Venezuelan military establishment with a huge amount to lose from a regime change, particularly if a new opposition-led government decides to investigate how billions and billions of dollars disappeared from the country over the years. It may be the case that the only way a deal could be struck between the opposition and the military is if the former guarantees that a new government will take a hands off approach to the military and that there will be no investigations of malfeasance under the previous government. But that is something that many opposition figures have little interest in doing and, even if they did, it would be difficult to credibly commit to that course of action.

4. The government rides out the storm by delaying the recall referendum, repressing protests against whatever shady actions it needs to take to achieve that delay, and perhaps convincing the opposition to wait until the 2018 presidential election to really contest power. This seems pretty unlikely right now but it can't be ruled out. Oil has moved up toward $50, which gives them a bit more room for maneuver economically. There are still a million political and economic landmines over the next year, however, including the real possibility of a default at some point. In some sense, the government's best hope may be some kind of miraculous event on the other side of the globe that disrupts oil production, sending prices much higher, and allowing them to scrape through the next six months. That is probably what Maduro dreams about at night.

For anybody who wants to follow the situation in Venezuela, I highly recommend Caracas Chronicles as an English language news source. The site is run by an acquaintance of mine but I'm not just hawking it. They have done really great reporting and brief news analysis on the country for over a decade.
 

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CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuela's opposition says officials have validated enough signatures to proceed to the next phase of a referendum to recall unpopular President Nicolas Maduro.

Opposition leader Jesus Torrealba says election officials confirmed the validity of some 407,000 signatures that were under review. That's more than double the 200,000 required.

He says there is "no formal, legal or technical excuse" for the next phase of the recall drive not to begin immediately.


The National Election Council has not confirmed the validation of the signatures. But Torrealba said he expects an announcement soon.