So which league they do it in only matters if it benefits Tuanzebe, correct?
Or would you say that Tuanzebe's defensive stats were easier because he was facing Championship players and Lindelof did it against PL players?
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Or would you say that Tuanzebe's defensive stats were easier because he was facing Championship players and Lindelof did it against PL players?
Ok this is a pointless argument. Are you really trying to say it's easier to pass the ball in the Premier League than it is in the Championship? Because that's what it sounds like...
The question was which top CBs that were at their best/in their prime. For example Chiellini probably isnt in the form where he made his name now. If you look back to 12/13 he made 15.7 of those defensive actions per game. In 11/12 he made 16. These were the times he made his name, not at 34 years old.
Thanks for looking it up though, those numbers dont surprise me at all. The only CBs I would consider a top CB from last season are near the top and the players I never considered that great, or past their best are near the bottom.
Again, I dont think Varane is a top CB just because he is nearer the top of this list. I dont think the higher number of defensive actions means you are a better CB. My question was whether there were any top CBs in the past 10 years who made as few defensive actions as Lindelof does during the time they were "at their best" rather than living off the name they previously made.
These are just numbers from the past season I guess? So its possible in the 9 other years that there is someone. I just dont think so
These are not optimized to be all time high values, not for Lindelof, not for anybody. All values are as stated from last season. These are defenders ranked top 10 by 442 in 2019 plus some who play regularly in the best teams in the world. I think most of them played for their national teams last season. Lindelof is in the middle according to the stats and very few have more than 10-15% more "defensive actions" than Lindelof. So basically 90% of the world's best CBs are having more or less the same stats as him.
If we take Lindelofs stats +/- 15% he is the same bracket as:
Koulibaly 9,8
Hummels 9,7
Varane 9,6
Laporte 9,4
Vertonghen 9,4
Alderweireld 8,9
Lindelof 8,7
Rugani 8,6
Chiellini 8,6
Ramos 8,5
Thiago Silva 8,5
Savic 8
Nacho 8
These have higher values:
VvD 12,6
Godin 11,1
de Ligt 10,8
Pique 10,6
These have lower:
Bonucci 7,1
Kimpembe 6,9
Boateng 6,7
Stones 6,7
Lenglet 6,6
Umtiti 5,3
I am a bit curious. Who do you consider the best 10 defenders in the world?
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Yes stats are just stats and these only show parts of what a CB does.
Probably not but now we have the facts.
Agree
That is easy. Just let him check WhoScored first. He will probably find someone «credible» with a lot of defensive actions.
Again I dont think players are top class CBs because of who they play for. They are top because of how they perform.
Last season I'd say VDV and Pique were great, Koulibaly was good and Laporte overall with his on the ball play too was also good. Other than those 4 I wouldnt say any were top class CBs. De Ligt showed his potential but also made mistakes, Godin I didnt see that much of but I had felt he wasnt as good as in the past the previous couple of seasons.
It is also really worth questioning how clearing/hoofing the ball makes you a good defender. If Lindelof made as many clearances as Rio, there numbers would not be very different. If he hoofed the ball a few more time each game he would be better than most of the people on your list.
It is also quite interesting to observe the development we have seen the past ten years. In 2009/2010 there were 30 central defenders (with more than 15 app) in the PL who cleared the ball 9 times or more per 90 min. In 2018/2019 Balbuena cleared it most often with 7,7 per 90 min. Do they clear the ball less often because they are of lower level? Of course not. The do it because keeping the ball is a priority and they therefor focus on passing with intent instead of «hoofing it».
Lindelöf is Ole's current first pick. He was bought by Mourinho for a reason and is still praised by him and others. United wants to sign a new, big contract with him. Barcelona is showing interest in him.
That in itself tells me that he is a good player, way more than the opinion of some forum warriors.
Is Lindelöf perfect? Absolutely not. He is still quite young has a lot of room for improvement. Just like everybody else in the team.
I'm sure whenever Lindelöf makes a mistake in the future, this thread will be filled with "I told you so." Most goals are scored due to defender mistakes and they're bound to happen. It's as if some people expect defenders to have a 100% clean sheet or they're simply not worthy.
He was off to a bad start at United, but he's adapted well and I've been very happy with him lately. Can't really see anybody taking his place at the moment.
That in itself tells me that he is a good player, way more than the opinion of some forum warriors.
Is Lindelöf perfect? Absolutely not. He is still quite young has a lot of room for improvement. Just like everybody else in the team.
I'm sure whenever Lindelöf makes a mistake in the future, this thread will be filled with "I told you so." Most goals are scored due to defender mistakes and they're bound to happen. It's as if some people expect defenders to have a 100% clean sheet or they're simply not worthy.
He was off to a bad start at United, but he's adapted well and I've been very happy with him lately. Can't really see anybody taking his place at the moment.
You are of course allowed to have your opinion, but at least we have now debunked the myth that Lindelof has very few "defensive actions". It was stats based on not looking at the stats. Now we have looked and can see it was not true. He has roughly the same number of defensive actions" as most of those centre backs that either:
1. Are considered best in the world by most people and experts. All Top 10 CB from 442 included.
2. Play regularly for some of the best teams in the world 2018. I included the best centre backs from Barcelona, Juventus, PSG, City, Bayern, Liverpool, Real Madrid.
Yes there is clearly a development towards a new type of CBs and the demands are not the same as a few years ago.
Exactly, CB's are harder to judge solely on numbers because the better teams have to face less shots.
Ofcourse a lesser team will have a CB with higher clearances than say VVD that does not mean they are better.
Comparisons like these are pathetic.
He does have very few defensive actions. So do plenty of the other CBs you picked out
Except he does have lots of defensive actions, and had among the highest in the league for the 2 seasons before Liverpool bought him and "surprised" people by being the best CB in the league
Unlike VVD there arent examples of top CBs who dont make many defensive actions, unless they are older, out of form or coasting off the name they built in previous years where they did in fact make lots of defensive actions.
So far both Chiellini and VVD have been brought up but Chiellini has had plenty of seasons where he won the ball a lot, where he was considered a top CB and not so much last season when hes 34.
And VVD had the past 3 seasons being among the stat leaders for CBs in the premier league.
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I think they are more revealing than pathetic. There are too many people who dont understand the game who try leaning on stats.
Yes and that is my point. Most of the best CBs in the world have around this amount of "defensive actions". Example Koulibaly, Ramos, Bonucci, Varane, Laporte... This is how it looks in world football today.
Some great, some average and some poor CBs have higher figures, but most of the worlds best CBs have the same figures as Lindelof.
[Same figures, I defined as +/- 15%]
I dont agree that they are top CBs.
Some of them were top CBs back in previous times when they did actually win the ball a lot, again like Chiellini. But not if they've fallen off like he has. Thats when they are past their best.
Actually, please see below for the season 16/17 where VVD is not to be seen.
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_clearance
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/outfielder_block
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/interception
Please provide the evidence to your stats?
VVD by the stats in 16/17 (sorted by rating)
You really should be able to look these things up for yourself. Stop looking at individual stats and look at the entire criteria. Players may be low in one area and high in another, what matters is the overall package.
VVD had 16.7 combined of the defensive actions I mentioned. The most of which came from clearances. 16.7 is higher than anyone that was listed earlier from last season...
VVD almost made as many clearances alone that season as Lindelof made tackles, interceptions, blocked shots and aerials combined per game last season.
Likewise Lindelof can be low on aerials, but if he makes up for it with tackles, interceptions, shot blocks and clearances being high then he'll still be up there. But right now hes not doing as much work
Not everyone can be at Christopher Schindler (11,4) or Sol Bamba-level (16,3).
I didn't base it on your opinion who is the best, but the general consensus who are the best CB, if you ask most people and experts, and/or players who are the best CBs in the best teams in the world. I also included all CB from 442:s ranking of the ten best CBs in the world. I think my list is fair. Could probably find 5-10 more who deserve to be in the list, but it is most of last year's best CBs.
I think your definition of "top CB" is actually "quite a good CB". I dont think there are 20 Top CBs at the current time.
VVD by the stats in 16/17 (sorted by rating)
You really should be able to look these things up for yourself. Stop looking at individual stats and look at the entire criteria. Players may be low in one area and high in another, what matters is the overall package.
VVD had 16.7 combined of the defensive actions I mentioned. The most of which came from clearances. 16.7 is higher than anyone that was listed earlier from last season...
VVD almost made as many clearances alone that season as Lindelof made tackles, interceptions, blocked shots and aerials combined per game last season.
Likewise Lindelof can be low on aerials, but if he makes up for it with tackles, interceptions, shot blocks and clearances being high then he'll still be up there. But right now hes not doing as much work
THat is opinion based not stats sorry.
Ramos
09/10 - 12.2
10/11 - 11.8
11/12 - 11.2
12/13 - 13.4
I personally dont think he's been a top tier CB due to how many defensive mistakes I see him make. But he's another CB who in previous years when he was making his name, didnt have less defensive actions than Lindelof's 8.7 per game. He was a fair bit above
So thats VDV, Chiellini and Ramos who have all been bigger ball winners when they made their names as top CBs (before later declining and in Ramos's case having a disaster season last year)
09/10 - 12.2
10/11 - 11.8
11/12 - 11.2
12/13 - 13.4
I personally dont think he's been a top tier CB due to how many defensive mistakes I see him make. But he's another CB who in previous years when he was making his name, didnt have less defensive actions than Lindelof's 8.7 per game. He was a fair bit above
So thats VDV, Chiellini and Ramos who have all been bigger ball winners when they made their names as top CBs (before later declining and in Ramos's case having a disaster season last year)
The stats are right there. You just dont want to read them. Regardless you have been provided with what you asked, next time dont ask for something thats too painful for you to read
Most of today's best CBs are low on aerials. Here is a list from last season, showing succesful aerials in domestic leagues. Laporte, Koulibaly, Vertonghen all have more or less the same amount as Lindelof. Interesting to see that most of the best teams in the world do not need the CBs to head the ball all the time.
VvD 4,8
Hummels 4,2
de Ligt 3,9
Pique 3,4
Godin 3,1
Varane 3
Rugani 2,7
Laporte 2,6
Vertonghen 2,3
Lindelof 2,3
Koulibaly 2,2
Ramos 2,2
Chiellini 2,1
Thiago Silva 2,1
Savic 2,1
Stones 2
Nacho 1,7
Bonucci 1,7
Alderweireld 1,6
Boateng 1,6
Lenglet 1,5
Kimpembe 1
Umtiti 0,9
I said the best CBs in the world.
My question was about the top Cbs in the past 10 years. So you answered a question that wasnt asked?
Again its fine if he doesnt make many headers when we have Maguire and Smalling as options next to him. He just needs to make it up in another area. 8.7 is lower than the top CBs when they were playing the best and making their name like hes obviously trying to do right now.
The problem is that it isnt just heading where he's low.
He's also low on interceptions.
I would imagine that if he improved in those 2 areas he could get up there with the CBs who made 10+ defensive contributions per game like all the top CBs in the past 10 years when they were playing well. But thats why hes short, because of those 2 areas where hes low and having no particular standout areas. His best would be his tackling but 1.3 isnt that high to make up for the low areas.
In the end it results in being too passive trying to win the ball, mainly because of those 2 weak areas - in the air and trying to take the ball before it reaches the opponent
You said there was none, aparantly most of the best CBs in the world had the same figures as Lindelof last year.
Anyway, I stop here. The conclusion which I guess nobody can debate against, is that the best teams in the world all use CBs with roughly the same amount of "defensive actions" as Lindelof. With a few exceptions, for example VvD.
That means nobody needs worry about "Lindelof's few defensive actions", as most top teams in the world have CBs who perform the same amount of "defensive actions" as Lindelof.
I asked if there were any top CBs in the past 10 years who win the ball as little as he does - when they were in the form that made them top CBs. Not at 34 years old like Cheillini last year or Ramos in probably his worst Real Madrid season
It also makes you wonder who Man Utd should buy to replace him, since he previously said he needs to be replaced next summer.
The weird thing is, he probably would be happy if Man Utd played with a by far inferior player like Chris Smalling. It is also beyond absurd to use a figure like clearences they way Ekeke does.
I dont think Smalling is a top CB. Didnt think he was when he was in his best form 2 seasons ago, why would I now?
So you do believe Man Utd need to buy a top CB even if you apparantly believe that such a player dont exist currently?
What do you make of the decline in clearences among CBs in the PL the past decade? Do you really believe that making more clearences is an indication of quality?
Why? Last season is the most recent and most relevant.
I didnt say they dont exist. I talked about 2 who were great last season, 1 who showed the potential to maybe end up being one and another CB. Thats 4 not 0.
Again, I shouldnt need to keep saying this - it just shows people arent reading properly.
I didnt at any point suggest that the more defensive actions the better. I simply asked if there were any top CBs in the past 10 years who won the ball as little as Lindelof does. I wanted to see if there was an example of someone who is a top CB who wins the ball the amount Lindelof does, and not when they're past their best at 34 or having the worst season of their career. But when they're actually in their best form. Because thats what Lindelof will need to match to one day be considered a top CB.
I dont think he'll get there. We paid £80 million for Maguire who looks a bit better than Lindelof. So finding Maguire's partner, should Tuanzabe not break through and show more than Lindelof will be costly too. Just like I said replacing Smalling will be. I don't think every CB is better than our CBs like people were suggesting the past few years, but there are a couple who are playing better and might become top CBs.
Because on that form Ramos would never be considered a top CB. Therefore its obviously not a standard that Lindelof reaching would make him a top CB.
Neither is Cheillini at 34. Chiellini at his best? Sure. Thats where he needs to get to
No you did not ask that. And I didn't pick and choose their worst seasons on purpose, I just took the most recent because I wanted stats that represent the best CBs in today's football. But it doesn't matter. As I wrote we can conclude that Lindelof has the same stats as most of the world's best CBs and those playing for the best clubs in the world.
Judging centre backs on their amount of clearances is effectively punishing anyone with enough composure to keep possession in multiple of those situations.
All of these stats are heavily based on team tactics and individual playstyles. Using them as a measurement of quality is missing the point entirely.
All of these stats are heavily based on team tactics and individual playstyles. Using them as a measurement of quality is missing the point entirely.
Exactly. I think Maguire is very good, and exactly what Unoted needed, but you could see that some of his aerials and clearances are a bit unnecessary. It's like it's an instinct to clear the ball, but he could easily have controlled it instead.
Bonucci was voted the best player in Serie A in 15/16. He was instrumental for a Juve team that reached the CL final twice between 15-17 and in the UEFA team of year more than once, I think.
In these three years he made 5,3, 5,1 and 4,8 defensive actions winning the ball excluding clearences. Lindelof made 4,8 excluding clearences last year.
In 16/17 where he made 4,8 he also made 3,3 clearences. 8,1 in total. Lindelof made 3,9 clearences and had 8,7 in total.
Bonucci in this period was among the best CBs of the last decade. The difference between him and Lindelof is basically irrelevant. And in 16/17, in Bonuccis prime, he made less defensive actions than Lindelof. So you probably dont rate Bonucci anymore.
I'm saying it's easier to pass to more talented players playing under a far superior coach.
If you're gonna praise Lindelof for his passing stats then you have to praise Smalling too. Both players mostly played it safe and Lindelof sure isn't a great long range passer of the ball from the evidence at hand. Tuanzebe could've replicated that easily IMO too if he decided to continously pass sideways and backwards.
According to what I've heard from Mason Greenwood during training games and training sessions. Smalling is the best one v one defender he's faced followed by Axel. Lindelof he described as "not the quickest or strongest"
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