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2019-20 Performances


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MikeKing

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I mean that's the most enthusiastic and slightly over the top way to describe this


:lol:
Ice man works in mysterious ways. Another defender would probably handle that situation by grabbing the ball with his hands in pure panic from that insane pressure Brighton put him in there. Pure ice, I'm telling you!
 

Ekeke

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Ice man works in mysterious ways. Another defender would probably handle that situation by grabbing the ball with his hands in pure panic from that insane pressure Brighton put him in there. Pure ice, I'm telling you!
Without a doubt Smalling would have grabbed the nearest opponent's shirt, hauled him down to the ground and then VAR would have sent him off twice
 

A-man

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Without a doubt Smalling would have grabbed the nearest opponent's shirt, hauled him down to the ground and then VAR would have sent him off twice
Or, like in his last cup match, Smalling would head it like a perfect pass to his opponent so he could score. :smirk:
 

izec

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He is doing the bare minimum expected of a defender at United.
 

A-man

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You mean like Lindelof headed it straight to the opposition against Brighton?
You must have seen wrong. Lindelof is afraid of heading the ball and has never ever headed the ball.
 

Ekeke

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You must have seen wrong. Lindelof is afraid of heading the ball and has never ever headed the ball.
I can confirm thats a myth! He absolutely headed the ball, straight to the opposition when he could have controlled it
 

MikeKing

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@A-man That can't be what you're talking about, surely? Was a nice little contribution to the goal, but more than that and it just sounds very pretentious. Lindelof has a few involvements each game where he is calm, it's a nice thing but no wonder we see a completely different game if you put moments like that on a pedestal. I've seen him earlier in a very similar situation where the surrounding players actually pressed though and closely looked to cut out his passing alternatives in front of him and he panicked, immediately just shot the ball in the back of his team mate as I recall. Support Lindelof, but have some common sense mate.
 

Litch

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Do you know what competitive means?

The league has plenty of teams that can and have competed with Roma. They came 6th last season so 5 teams went into this season expecting to be above them

If he was playing for Juventus who win the league each season, fair enough thats a much easier job. But hes not. He's playing with just another pretty good team who may or may not do well. He's helping them do well so far this season.
If you read it without being so defensive (wish Smalling was a defensive here as you are), competitive compared to the Prem. Pity equally he didn't show the same commitment to helping us to do well here rather than playing over there. If he had, he'd still be here.
 

lRed

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I've disagreed with A-Man's point of views quite a lot especially around this whole ball playing CB but, there is actually nothing funny about what he pointed out there. That's exactly the kind of comfort and ability we want to permeate through the entire team when we are being pressed. 17 seconds from when he received the ball at the edge of our box to the goal being scored and that starts with Lindelof doing what he did. Would have resulted in a chance even quicker had Andreas put in Martial earlier.
Good moment to post and there are plenty of those for almost 12 months now.
Since Cardiff away when OGS took over, he he confident on the ball and going forward, breaks the lines and it creates situations to score goals.

I personally think he gets a lot of abuse from our fans, something what happens regularly with our players when they are not "on top" of their form sometimes. Despite the common opinion on here about him not being the right partner for Maguire, I actually think he is, they are solid together and I think their best game was against Chelsea in August at OT, this WE against Brighton they were really good. The goal we took was more about the lack of communication between de Gea and his teammates, Maguire a bit late in the air.
 

A-man

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I can confirm thats a myth! He absolutely headed the ball, straight to the opposition when he could have controlled it
Gotcha. But to be honest the goal Roma conceded in the cup, and City conceded a similar this weekend, are examples of what I mean with defenders just heading it randomly in to the centre of the pitch, so the other team just can continue to attack.

edit: let me add that I don’t blame anyone for heading back once in a while to the feet of the opponent and sometimes that result in a goal. But the fewer times that happen and the more you control the ball instead, the better. From not attacking and defensive POV.
 
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A-man

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@A-man That can't be what you're talking about, surely? Was a nice little contribution to the goal, but more than that and it just sounds very pretentious. Lindelof has a few involvements each game where he is calm, it's a nice thing but no wonder we see a completely different game if you put moments like that on a pedestal. I've seen him earlier in a very similar situation where the surrounding players actually pressed though and closely looked to cut out his passing alternatives in front of him and he panicked, immediately just shot the ball in the back of his team mate as I recall. Support Lindelof, but have some common sense mate.
I didn’t put anything on a pedestal. It was claimed he can’t play from the back but he does many times per match. This was one example, and he has more “advanced” passes if you prefer that, where he played longer ground passes through the line. But I picked this because it is a good example and resulted in a goal. It doesn’t always need to be much more complicated than that. Stay calm and play through the pressure to a midfielder who sets up for the goal. It how as fast from CB to midfielder to forward. Playing around at the back has it place to and is efficient in other ways, but I would like to see more like this. A straight line from CB to midfielder to forward.
 

Ekeke

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Gotcha. But to be honest the goal Roma conceded in the cup, and City conceded a similar this weekend, are examples of what I mean with defenders just heading it randomly in to the centre of the pitch, so the other team just can continue to attack.

edit: let me add that I don’t blame anyone for heading back once in a while to the feet of the opponent and sometimes that result in a goal. But the fewer times that happen and the more you control the ball instead, the better. From not attacking and defensive POV.
I agree, I just disagree that Lindelof calmly nods the ball down to a teammate more often than our other CB options. Maguire will sometimes just "clear it out" too
 

Litch

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Lindelof suffered from the same as Fred and others that signed for the club since SAF. It's either they are not a 'Big' name so the signing is seen as underwhelming or it's not the player that the fans thought we were going to sign. For this reason, it's also impossible to win so fans over and even when they are playing well, the vultures are always circling.

Also like Fred, we know if you start poorly this place is unforgiving especially when we are losing and again like Fred we take a forensic look at their game and a few nervy passes amount to they can't pass or a few missed headers means someone's shit in the air. Yet the stats prove otherwise but because of the above, fans tend to focus on what they can't do and not what they can.

We have players in the same position that are always injured, given away numerous penalties, would give away numerous penalties if were still here cause VAR pick up him grabbing people's shirts, can't pass and more importantly have been here nearly 10 years in a winning side yet have shown no improvement and why we have had to spend over 150m instead of that money being invested elsewhere.

Lindelof has his failings as does others but last year with all its difficulties, he was many fans player of the season or certainly in the argument. Most fans said we needed to sign someone to play alongside him. Many on here don't rate him but if he were to be sold tmw, I believe he's going to a better team than we currently are for a profit. Yep, clear sign that he's been a failure.
 

A-man

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I agree, I just disagree that Lindelof calmly nods the ball down to a teammate more often than our other CB options. Maguire will sometimes just "clear it out" too
Agree, I just think that Maguire and Smalling who are so good in the air, should be able to make controlled headers more often than they do.
 

MikeKing

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I didn’t put anything on a pedestal. It was claimed he can’t play from the back but he does many times per match. This was one example, and he has more “advanced” passes if you prefer that, where he played longer ground passes through the line. But I picked this because it is a good example and resulted in a goal. It doesn’t always need to be much more complicated than that. Stay calm and play through the pressure to a midfielder who sets up for the goal. It how as fast from CB to midfielder to forward. Playing around at the back has it place to and is efficient in other ways, but I would like to see more like this. A straight line from CB to midfielder to forward.
You sort of do though if that is the proof you have of what you get with someone like him, and not with someone like Smalling. Just a super delusional view. Like, wouldn't Smalling do the exact same thing in that situation? And he has pretty much an unanimously bad reputation for having no influence or involvement on the ball?
 

A-man

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You sort of do though if that is the proof you have of what you get with someone like him, and not with someone like Smalling. Just a super delusional view. Like, wouldn't Smalling do the exact same thing in that situation? And he has pretty much an unanimously bad reputation for having no influence or involvement on the ball?
It’s one of many examples and we have seen many more obvious examples of when he played through the line, but again I picked this because it was the start of the building up the counter attack and goal.

I don’t expect Smalling to play like that. He does occasionally but not as often as Lindelof or Maguire. Smalling’s biggest weakness imo is how he reacts when he has the ball and is put under pressure. He gets very stressed and chose simple and non creative choices.

It seems like impossible to you that Ole has chosen Lindelof over Smalling because Lindelof would be better with the ball? What is your theory why Ole didn’t chose to play Smalling as first choice.
 

MikeKing

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It’s one of many examples and we have seen many more obvious examples of when he played through the line, but again I picked this because it was the start of the building up the counter attack and goal.

I don’t expect Smalling to play like that. He does occasionally but not as often as Lindelof or Maguire. Smalling’s biggest weakness imo is how he reacts when he has the ball and is put under pressure. He gets very stressed and chose simple and non creative choices.

It seems like impossible to you that Ole has chosen Lindelof over Smalling because Lindelof would be better with the ball? What is your theory why Ole didn’t chose to play Smalling as first choice.
You pick and chose the situations you want, I could do the same and make it look reversed without problems. Smalling would look incredible on the ball if we picked his top moments. You painted a picture of what Lindelof did there as sort of a top moment because it led to a goal, which I find ridiculous. If put under the same amount of pressure there isn't much of a practical difference between someone like Lindelof and Smalling. I'd actually claim that Smalling is a lot better to withstand pressure in certain situations due to his size and physicality. Being able to protect the ball for a moment and pick the easy pass is often better than trying something extraordinary and risk losing the ball to put your team under pressure.

If you had better examples of Lindelof's contributions that can act as proof that his ratio of risky passes outweighs the times he loses the ball and puts the team on the back foot then I'll be more happy to change my mind. Look, I don't think Smalling is amazing on the ball and his good involvements on that part specifically is more occasional than Lindelof, I agree with you there, but he has other tools that heavily outweighs the importance you seem to find in the small difference in their quality on the ball. Once there is a big difference, even if I disagree because of some other thing, I would totally get it. At the moment, I just don't. Seems pretentious thus far.

I think Maguire has proven much more on the ball, and even if he is in sort of a slump at the moment from the earlier games you could actually see the huge difference in his ability compared to all our other CB's on the ball.
 

A-man

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You pick and chose the situations you want, I could do the same and make it look reversed without problems. Smalling would look incredible on the ball if we picked his top moments. You painted a picture of what Lindelof did there as sort of a top moment because it led to a goal, which I find ridiculous. If put under the same amount of pressure there isn't much of a practical difference between someone like Lindelof and Smalling. I'd actually claim that Smalling is a lot better to withstand pressure in certain situations due to his size and physicality. Being able to protect the ball for a moment and pick the easy pass is often better than trying something extraordinary and risk losing the ball to put your team under pressure.

If you had better examples of Lindelof's contributions that can act as proof that his ratio of risky passes outweighs the times he loses the ball and puts the team on the back foot then I'll be more happy to change my mind. Look, I don't think Smalling is amazing on the ball and his good involvements on that part specifically is more occasional than Lindelof, I agree with you there, but he has other tools that heavily outweighs the importance you seem to find in the small difference in their quality on the ball. Once there is a big difference, even if I disagree because of some other thing, I would totally get it. At the moment, I just don't. Seems pretentious thus far.

I think Maguire has proven much more on the ball, and even if he is in sort of a slump at the moment from the earlier games you could actually see the huge difference in his ability compared to all our other CB's on the ball.
Someone claimed he didn’t play from the back, I wanted to illustrate with an example from the latest match, and picked a moment where he played from the back. I picked this particular moment because it lead to a goal. What’s so strange with that? Lindelof has showed he is calm with the ball under pressure. He has also good ability to play through the line, but I think he has shown this too little and too often chosen safe options. The last two games (could be coincidence as only two matches) he has changed and played many more opening passes. This is my opinion and you don’t need to agree.

(edit: want to add that I didn’t chose this because it was some kind of highlight, but more an example that is representative for how he plays. As you say, if you pick highlights from a career, even Smalling can look good on the ball )

When it comes to take risks, it is a balance between what you can gain, what you can lose and your skills. A better ball player can make a certain pass with less risk than a worse ball player. Smalling is very good at knowing his own limitations and seldom takes risks. Lindelof is also good at making this judgement imo. As example he hit a long ball at the start of last match, which Rashford couldn’t control. The risk here is lost possession in the other teams penalty box. But if Rashford would be able to control the ball it would have been a great goal scoring opportunity. Lindelof also knew he has the skills to hit this kind of pass. Imo it was worth it even if it meant a lost possession.

I strongly disagree that Smalling is good under pressure. He gets very stressed.
 
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romufc

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I could do the same and make it look reversed without problems. Smalling would look incredible on the ball if we picked his top moments
Go on show us clips of Smalling good on the ball resulting in chances created.
 

MikeKing

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Go on show us clips of Smalling good on the ball resulting in chances created.
Sure. Give me some time and I'll get back to you with his highlight reel of what is his weakest point as a player, often used against him. I'll bet you I'll find a lot of things from him that people refuse to acknowledge or remember him ever doing. I'm going to look for clips where he passes forward, through the lines, assists etc and clips that might display general good ball-handling, dribbling, composure, finding his teammate after a defensive action etc. I guess it will be mostly in the context of defending but we'll see what shows. Just give me some time, I'll do my best. I hope for my effort that you'll at least keep an open mind, and if I find nothing I will digress from Smalling for a while.
 

Shimo

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Sure. Give me some time and I'll get back to you with his highlight reel of what is his weakest point as a player, often used against him. I'll bet you I'll find a lot of things from him that people refuse to acknowledge or remember him ever doing. I'm going to look for clips where he passes forward, through the lines, assists etc and clips that might display general good ball-handling, dribbling, composure, finding his teammate after a defensive action etc. I guess it will be mostly in the context of defending but we'll see what shows. Just give me some time, I'll do my best. I hope for my effort that you'll at least keep an open mind, and if I find nothing I will digress from Smalling for a while.

No need, 1:02 mark, makes a nice crossfield pass to Rashford, eventually leading to the goal. You are never going to change people's minds that he is nothing short of bambi on ice when he is on the ball. Smalling is no doubt ungainly on the ball but, way exaggerated.
 

romufc

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Sure. Give me some time and I'll get back to you with his highlight reel of what is his weakest point as a player, often used against him. I'll bet you I'll find a lot of things from him that people refuse to acknowledge or remember him ever doing. I'm going to look for clips where he passes forward, through the lines, assists etc and clips that might display general good ball-handling, dribbling, composure, finding his teammate after a defensive action etc. I guess it will be mostly in the context of defending but we'll see what shows. Just give me some time, I'll do my best. I hope for my effort that you'll at least keep an open mind, and if I find nothing I will digress from Smalling for a while.
Sure.

The thing with Smalling is he is a good defender without a doubt but his composure on the ball is poor compare to the ones we have in our squad.

Lindelof is better on the ball but is not that good a defender. His value will remain because he is good on the ball and teams want these type of players.
 

Ekeke

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Sure.

The thing with Smalling is he is a good defender without a doubt but his composure on the ball is poor compare to the ones we have in our squad.

Lindelof is better on the ball but is not that good a defender. His value will remain because he is good on the ball and teams want these type of players.
They also want good defenders
 

Teffe

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Why are people still discussing Smalling? He is an oldschool defender. The game is changing and the modern game keeps the ball on the ground. Adapt to it or lose in the long run. I'm sure Smalling would do alright aswell but he doesnt fit the modern game.

Perhaps Lindelofs "defensive skills" doens't suit everyone but he sure as hell fits the modern game.

Manchester United must get rid of players who doesnt fit the gameplan and fill those spots with new players first. Secondly upgrade the ones already here.

Some fans in here have to face the fact that it's closing to year 2020, not 2000...
 
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Cee90

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Lindelof reminds me of the type of defender that Arsenal have purchased over the past decade.

Not good enough IMO. Happy to keep him as a backup though.
 

Vault Dweller

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He might not be a world beater but I quite like him as a defender. Has poor games like anyone else but he seems to get a lot of criticism, is this one of those things where people don't like him and won't change their minds?
 

11101

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Go on show us clips of Smalling good on the ball resulting in chances created.
Creating chances is a tiny part of being good on the ball as a defender, about as useful as how many goals they score. People get hung up on how many long balls they play to the striker.

Far, far more important is their ability to break a press or pick the right pass to stretch play.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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Lindelof reminds me of the type of defender that Arsenal have purchased over the past decade.

Not good enough IMO. Happy to keep him as a backup though.

Yeah I remember thinking that last season or so, "he strikes me as an Arsenal type of purchase".

He's alright. Not the right partner for Maguire unfortunately. None of our CBs are. Axel might be if given the run of games, though.
 

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Yeah I remember thinking that last season or so, "he strikes me as an Arsenal type of purchase".

He's alright. Not the right partner for Maguire unfortunately. None of our CBs are. Axel might be if given the run of games, though.
Yeah when I look at Lindelöf, I think he’s the kind of CB Arsenal would buy.
 

A-man

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Creating chances is a tiny part of being good on the ball as a defender, about as useful as how many goals they score. People get hung up on how many long balls they play to the striker.

Far, far more important is their ability to break a press or pick the right pass to stretch play.
This is the major difference this season compared to last season in my opinion.
 

MikeKing

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Creating chances is a tiny part of being good on the ball as a defender, about as useful as how many goals they score. People get hung up on how many long balls they play to the striker.

Far, far more important is their ability to break a press or pick the right pass to stretch play.
I almost agree with the last part and I get what you're saying, however it really isn't more important in it self. It's the implication that defenders break the press and pick the right pass more often than they score a goal, which is true. So yeah, but in it self the value of a goal or assist is of much greater importance in most cases, depending on the context. If a defender is trained to 'break a press' and does that consistently to the point it creates an advantage for our team I won't deny it's importance, but as long as it doesn't I won't celebrate a simple dribble 15 yards out from De Gea. I'll always celebrate goals though.

Just this mental image of a defender running from his own half and scores a goal, and you're sort of annoyed because if he was any good on the ball really what he should have done was to stretch the play with a nice pass first.
 

A-man

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I almost agree with the last part and I get what you're saying, however it really isn't more important in it self. It's the implication that defenders break the press and pick the right pass more often than they score a goal, which is true. So yeah, but in it self the value of a goal or assist is of much greater importance in most cases, depending on the context. If a defender is trained to 'break a press' and does that consistently to the point it creates an advantage for our team I won't deny it's importance, but as long as it doesn't I won't celebrate a simple dribble 15 yards out from De Gea. I'll always celebrate goals though.

Just this mental image of a defender running from his own half and scores a goal, and you're sort of annoyed because if he was any good on the ball really what he should have done was to stretch the play with a nice pass first.
Lindelof has had a handful of situations where he has dribbled the ball close to the oppositions penalty box and delivered it to a forward and created a chance. I think then it is worth it.

Maguire has had maybe two handfuls of situations where he has dribbled and then nobody moves in the midfield and he has no one to pass, he has to stop and play McT. Totally pointless.

For me it is most important they pass their way through press even if dribbling is more entertaining.
 

11101

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I almost agree with the last part and I get what you're saying, however it really isn't more important in it self. It's the implication that defenders break the press and pick the right pass more often than they score a goal, which is true. So yeah, but in it self the value of a goal or assist is of much greater importance in most cases, depending on the context. If a defender is trained to 'break a press' and does that consistently to the point it creates an advantage for our team I won't deny it's importance, but as long as it doesn't I won't celebrate a simple dribble 15 yards out from De Gea. I'll always celebrate goals though.

Just this mental image of a defender running from his own half and scores a goal, and you're sort of annoyed because if he was any good on the ball really what he should have done was to stretch the play with a nice pass first.
It's more important because a defender might create a chance once every 5 games, and its not their job to do it. Others are in the team for that. It is their job to break a press or stretch the play out and they will have to do it multiple times per game. It's not related to creating chances at all, it is whether we control the tempo and direction of the game or the opposition does.
 

Still ill

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I've been patient but I feel his levels this season are below last year. It was instructive watching him against Brighton. Even when we were in total control of the game and he was given some time on the ball, I thought he was really poor in possession, intercepted a couple of times. I mean this is his selling point. He needs to grow in stature quickly. When a sizeable groundswell in here, including myself, are contemplating Rojo being a better option than him, he's in trouble.
 

charlenefan

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I've been patient but I feel his levels this season are below last year. It was instructive watching him against Brighton. Even when we were in total control of the game and he was given some time on the ball, I thought he was really poor in possession, intercepted a couple of times. I mean this is his selling point. He needs to grow in stature quickly. When a sizeable groundswell in here, including myself, are contemplating Rojo being a better option than him, he's in trouble.
:lol: why because you're the authority?

Rojo is great in a humorous he's mental kind of way but he cant stay fit and if the recent game at Chelsea proved he's actually not as good a defender as Lindelof. Lindelof adapted to the 3 at the back perfectly, constantly providing AWB the RWB with protection whereas Rojo on the other side constantly left Williams the LWB hopelessly exposed being far too narrow

Rojo if he can stay fit if a good option for that 4th CB role but he's not challenging Lindelof for a first team place imo, Tuanzebe on the other hand...