[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

This discussion about Lindelof reminds me of Don Quijote, he also fought with windmills.

With statistics, you can prove anything, often misleading because it is just fragments of a reality that is more complex.

Those who have statistics like their religion are often blind to everything else, like most fanatics, so it's better to trust what you see with your own eyes.

In my eyes Lindelöf is not perfect but a good CB, in the match against Tottenham even better than the world's most expensive CB.

The fact that we see things differently is well known and the conclusion is that the future must show who is right or wrong.

it’s one of the great things about football, that you really can’t make a conclusion from stats alone. Whatever your point of view/ argument - there are stats out there that you can find to support it. The reality is that you need to watch the game and interpret it alongside some stats. It I have to say when I see stuff like player x makes .2 blocks per game, than player y it’s pretty pointless.

Lindelöf is in the top 3 CBs we have at the club alongside Maguire and Smalling. If Tuanzebe takes the chances that will come his way this season, then he will likely be out of the first team. As a partnership Maguire/Tuanzebe has far more potential. Lindelöf will never be a top class CB, but he’s doing a good job at the moment.

 

[Halftrack]

It's quite clear that Maguire is the one who's supposed to move up and challenge for aerial balls, while Lindelöf hangs back as cover. That's expected, given how dominant Maguire is in the air. I believe, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that Maguire's also used more on attacking corners than Lindelöf.

This discussion about Lindelof reminds me of Don Quijote, he also fought with windmills.

With statistics, you can prove anything, often misleading because it is just fragments of a reality that is more complex.

Those who have statistics like their religion are often blind to everything else, like most fanatics, so it's better to trust what you see with your own eyes.

In my eyes Lindelöf is not perfect but a good CB, in the match against Tottenham even better than the world's most expensive CB.

The fact that we see things differently is well known and the conclusion is that the future must show who is right or wrong.

There are definitely some who stare themselves blind on stats. They can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak.

No, it isnt. A clearance is a defender getting something on a ball aimed in towards an opposition player.

WhoScored defines a clearance as "Action by a defending player that temporarily removes the attacking threat on their goal/that effectively alleviates pressure on their goal." Which I would assume includes mindlessly booting a loose ball up the pitch, but does not include gaining possession of said loose ball and passing it to a teammate, if said pass doesn't technically remove pressure.

 

[Ekeke]

It's quite clear that Maguire is the one who's supposed to move up and challenge for aerial balls, while Lindelöf hangs back as cover. That's expected, given how dominant Maguire is in the air. I believe, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that Maguire's also used more on attacking corners than Lindelöf, who's most

There are definitely some who stare themselves blind on stats. They can't see the forest for the trees, so to speak.

WhoScored defines a clearance as "Action by a defending player that temporarily removes the attacking threat on their goal/that effectively alleviates pressure on their goal." Which I would assume includes mindlessly booting a loose ball up the pitch, but does not include gaining possession of said loose ball and passing it to a teammate, if said pass doesn't technically remove pressure.

So just like I said, getting something on the ball that was intended for an opposition player (removes the attacking threat)

Its an intervention in an opponent's attack.

Picking up a loose ball could be anything from a loose pass from your own teammate going 20 yards behind you and you having to run back and stop it going out of play, or two players go for a challenge and neither gets the ball cleanly and it bounces 1 yard away from you so you step forward and control the ball, or a drop ball that the opponents dont even contest because you're going to kick it back to them anyway - to a ball breaking inside the box and both the defender and attacker have a 50/50 chance of getting it, then the defender gets that loose ball which is a great bit of defensive play. But you cannot possibly tell that from a "loose ball" stat, which can mean anything.

Its possible to do some fantastic work recovering a loose ball, or it could mean nothing at all.

 

[A-man]

No, it isnt. A clearance is a defender getting something on a ball aimed in towards an opposition player.

A loose ball is a ball that nobody has, nobody is trying to play to another player that might reach them if the defender doesnt get something on it. Its literally taking a ball that nobody has and half the time, no opposition player is going to be near it so it would be hard not to take the free ball. In fact it would be a big mistake.

You cannot in any way shape or form tell what a "ball recovery" is without watching the incident and seeing if its a 50/50 or if one player was right next to where the ball broke and the opposition were nowhere near it and were never going to get it.

There will be moments where its great play reacting to a loose ball and getting there before an opponent in a great position, or when the opponent is 70/30 likelyhood to get there.

But that is not every loose ball, so the stat doesn't mean anything without evidence of the situation.

A tackle is a tackle. You took the ball off the opponent. An interception is an interception, you got in the way of a pass that was intended to be played to an opponent.

A ball recovery is... Anything. You just need to have the ball after nobody had the ball.

Oh look at these amazing stats from Everton -Chelsea!!



Zouma:
2 tackles, 3 interceptions, 6 clearances, 8 won aerials, 108 passes

Christensen:
2 interceptions, 3 clearances, 8 won aerials, 82 passes
The workload! The responsibility they take! How active they are!

Unfortunately I watched the game and the stats don’t tell that they both massively fecked up and cost their team 3 goals and 3 points to Everton, positioned third from bottom before the match.
I would give Zouma 4/10 and Christensen 3/10. Despite the world class stats.

 

[Ekeke]

Oh look at these amazing stats from Everton -Chelsea!!



Zouma:
2 tackles, 3 interceptions, 6 clearances, 8 won aerials, 108 passes

Christensen:
2 interceptions, 3 clearances, 8 won aerials, 82 passes
The workload! The responsibility they take! How active they are!

Unfortunately I watched the game and the stats don’t tell that they both massively fecked up and cost their team 3 goals and 3 points to Everton, positioned third from bottom before the match.
I would give Zouma 4/10 and Christensen 3/10. Despite the world class stats.

They were both average yes, and their ratings reflect that over the course of the season just like Lindelof's. One match out of a season doesnt tell you much

World class stats?

They just had more to do than Lindelof usually does. That doesnt mean someone has "world class stats", it means they tried. Regardless of whether they played well which they didnt

 

[Ekeke]

"Loose-ball specialist" Lindelof Vs. Chelsea's "World class stats" average defense

All are 6 out of 10s, but Maguire is closer to a 7 than loose balls. Chelsea's defense is error prone which undoes any good work you do up to that point and beyond it. But yes they do more than Lindelof does defensively - they just dont have Maguire, AVB and De Gea to do the bulk of work for them.

 

[A-man]

They were both average yes, and their ratings reflect that over the course of the season just like Lindelof's. One match out of a season doesnt tell you much

World class stats?

They just had more to do than Lindelof usually does. That doesnt mean someone has "world class stats", it means they tried. Regardless of whether they played well which they didnt

They were both very poor and cost their team 3 points. Anyway, as now showed these stats have nothing to do with performance.

 

[Halftrack]

So just like I said, getting something on the ball that was intended for an opposition player (removes the attacking threat)

No, you're narrowing the definition.

A player takes a shot, it hits a teammate and runs loose, defender boots it up the pitch: that's a clearance, yet the ball was meant for no one. Same situation, but defender picks up the ball and passes it to a teammate who boots it up the pitch: ball recovery from first defender, clearance from teammate. Defending a corner, your teammate gets his head to the ball, it falls to you and you boot it up the pitch: clearance.

Your clearance stat is as vague as the ball recovery stat, but Lindelöf's ball recovery stat is good, so you make it out to be useless in measuring defensive contribution. He doesn't clear the ball as much as some other defenders, so you have to tweak the definition of what a clearance is in order to make it seem more considered and deliberate.

It's kind of like with aerial duels. You bring it up a lot, but neglect to mention that WhoScored counts aerial duels all over the pitch, so it's nigh on useless as a measure of defensive contribution, especially if your team tends to get a lot of corners and/or freekicks in good positions, and your defenders tend to be in the box to contest said corners and/or freekicks (not saying either of those goes for us, just pointing out that it factors in.) If one of your defenders is in the box more often than the other in those situations, it's even less useful. That's not to say you can't look at aerial duel stats to judge a defenders contribution, you just can't really use WhoScored's aerial duel stats for that (you can, however, use it to judge how good a defender is in the air.)

 

[A-man]

"Loose-ball specialist" Lindelof Vs. Chelsea's "World class stats" average defense

All are 6 out of 10s, but Maguire is closer to a 7 than loose balls. Chelsea's defense is error prone which undoes any good work you do up to that point and beyond it. But yes they do more than Lindelof does defensively - they just dont have Maguire, AVB and De Gea to do the bulk of work for them.

I showed you stats from a specific match, the same stats you seem to believe show work rate, responsibility etc. Zouma’s stats in this match, were very high and also Christensen were rather high. Yet they were very poor because it does not translate to performance, work rate etc.

 

[A-man]

It's kind of like with aerial duels. You bring it up a lot, but neglect to mention that WhoScored counts aerial duels all over the pitch, so it's nigh on useless as a measure of defensive contribution, especially if your team tends to get a lot of corners and/or freekicks in good positions, and your defenders tend to be in the box to contest said corners and/or freekicks (not saying either of those goes for us, just pointing out that it factors in.) If one of your defenders is in the box more often than the other in those situations, it's even less useful. That's not to say you can't look at aerial duel stats to judge a defenders contribution, you just can't really use WhoScored's aerial duel stats for that (you can, however, use it to judge how good a defender is in the air.)

I took a look at aerial duels, both lost and won, and split up in defensive and offensive.

89% of Lindelofs aerials were defensive, all together 4 defensive aerial duels per match.

69% of Maguires were defensive, 4.2 defensive aerial duels per match.

65% of Smalling’s were defensive, 4.2 per match.

More or less every setpieces aims for Maguires head so obviously he gets a lot of offensive headers.

 

[Ekeke]

I showed you stats from a specific match, the same stats you seem to believe show work rate, responsibility etc. Zouma’s stats in this match, were very high and also Christensen were rather high. Yet they were very poor because it does not translate to performance, work rate etc.

It 100% shows how hard they were worked by the opposition. Making 3 tackles doesnt make up for making a mistake in front of your goal though.

The best CB will do both, a high workload and not make mistakes. Maguire is our best at the two

 

[Ekeke]

No, you're narrowing the definition.

A player takes a shot, it hits a teammate and runs loose, defender boots it up the pitch: that's a clearance, yet the ball was meant for no one. Same situation, but defender picks up the ball and passes it to a teammate who boots it up the pitch: ball recovery from first defender, clearance from teammate. Defending a corner, your teammate gets his head to the ball, it falls to you and you boot it up the pitch: clearance.

Your clearance stat is as vague as the ball recovery stat, but Lindelöf's ball recovery stat is good, so you make it out to be useless in measuring defensive contribution. He doesn't clear the ball as much as some other defenders, so you have to tweak the definition of what a clearance is in order to make it seem more considered and deliberate.

It's kind of like with aerial duels. You bring it up a lot, but neglect to mention that WhoScored counts aerial duels all over the pitch, so it's nigh on useless as a measure of defensive contribution, especially if your team tends to get a lot of corners and/or freekicks in good positions, and your defenders tend to be in the box to contest said corners and/or freekicks (not saying either of those goes for us, just pointing out that it factors in.) If one of your defenders is in the box more often than the other in those situations, it's even less useful. That's not to say you can't look at aerial duel stats to judge a defenders contribution, you just can't really use WhoScored's aerial duel stats for that (you can, however, use it to judge how good a defender is in the air.)

Get a load of yourself

you just described a loose ball. You can tell because you made a scenario where the ball was loose. That is not a clearance because it was not getting in the way of an opponent's attack. The ball was loose, nobody had it, nobody was attacking

 

[A-man]

It 100% shows how hard they were worked by the opposition. Making 3 tackles doesnt make up for making a mistake in front of your goal though.

The best CB will do both, a high workload and not make mistakes. Maguire is our best at the two

Better centrebacks wouldn’t have to “work as hard” in terms of these handpicked stats. Instead of clearing and heading away the ball back to the opponent, they had taken control. By taking control and by taking possession, you don’t need to experience wave after wave with attack.

 

[Halftrack]

Get a load of yourself

you just described a loose ball. You can tell because you made a scenario where the ball was loose. That is not a clearance because it was not getting in the way of an opponent's attack. The ball was loose, nobody had it, nobody was attacking

If there's a loose ball in the an attacking area, and there are attackers nearby, booting said loose ball up the pitch is, by any definition, a clearance. No matter how you receive the ball, if it's in an attacking area, and there is an attacking threat, booting said ball out of the attacking area is a clearance. It doesn't have to come from, or be headed towards, an opposition player.

What you're describing as a clearance (a defender getting something on a ball aimed in towards an opposition player) is practically identical to WhoScored's definition of an interception (preventing an opponent's pass from reaching their teammates). It is, however, not in any way similar to their, or any other persons, definition of a clearance.

If you want to use your own definitions, that's fine, but I suggest you stop using them in conjunction with stats gathered using different definitions then.

What is eminently clear here is that you use these stats as a crutch, yet you have no idea what they mean.

 

[Ekeke]

Better centrebacks wouldn’t have to “work as hard” in terms of these handpicked stats. Instead of clearing and heading away the ball back to the opponent, they had taken control. By taking control and by taking possession, you don’t need to experience wave after wave with attack.

Turns out they do

Back to the drawing board with you

 

[Ekeke]

If there's a loose ball in the an attacking area, and there are attackers nearby, booting said loose ball up the pitch is, by any definition, a clearance. No matter how you receive the ball, if it's in an attacking area, and there is an attacking threat, booting said ball out of the attacking area is a clearance. It doesn't have to come from, or be headed towards, an opposition player.

What you're describing as a clearance (a defender getting something on a ball aimed in towards an opposition player) is practically identical to WhoScored's definition of an interception (preventing an opponent's pass from reaching their teammates). It is, however, not in any way similar to their, or any other persons, definition of a clearance.

If you want to use your own definitions, that's fine, but I suggest you stop using them in conjunction with stats gathered using different definitions then.

What is eminently clear here is that you use these stats as a crutch, yet you have no idea what they mean.

No, by the definition you printed yourself from their website a clearance is intervening in an opponent's attacking move.

Its getting something on a crossed ball that takes it away from an opponent, its touching the ball out of play instead of letting a pass go beyond you and so on.

What you are thinking of a clearance isnt what whoscored's definition that you yourself went and found and pasted, says. Thats why you are very confused. It isnt "How many times does a player hoof the ball up the pitch" - thats long passes. Its how many times a player deals with a ball coming in and gets there before the opponent. You dont need to smash the ball into touch.

 

[A-man]

Turns out they do

https://i.gyazo.com/14ceeeaa2090790f19abbb9a66491c3a.png

https://i.gyazo.com/640602e4bd2e2f5ad67e22f663e2673e.png

Back to the drawing board with you

I don’t think you understand. Neither my point, nor the stats. Chelsea had to defend a lot today and the CBs had to do a lot of reactive defending. That’s why they got high numbers in those stats you confuse with “taking responsibility”. I watched the game. Many of the attacks came because Chelsea didn’t take possession but instead did clearances that allowed another attack. And another. And another. Better players would have taken control or at least cleared it better. The result would of course have been lower points in your stats.

 

[Ekeke]

I don’t think you understand. Neither my point, nor the stats. Chelsea had to defend a lot today and the CBs had to do a lot of reactive defending. That’s why they got high numbers in those stats you confuse with “taking responsibility”. I watched the game. Many of the attacks came because Chelsea didn’t take possession but instead did clearances that allowed another attack. And another. And another. Better players would have taken control or at least cleared it better. The result would of course have been lower points in your stats.

No, clearly not. These are teams that have most of the ball, the top teams around and yet win the ball more than Lindelof does. It results in their stats being higher than his despite your desperate attempts to pretend he isn't doing less than a lot of other CBs

 

[A-man]

No, clearly not. These are teams that have most of the ball, the top teams around and yet win the ball more than Lindelof does. It results in their stats being higher than his despite your desperate attempts to pretend he isn't doing less than a lot of other CBs

You are a little bit all over the place right now. First you talk about PL and work rate, responsibility etc based on some handpicked stats that you somehow believe are important, while saying gaining winning possession is not so important. Now you handpick some centrebacks around the world to prove something else, or the same. I don’t really see what you want anymore.

Your point is: Lindelof is worthless based on his numbers of aerials, interceptions, tackels, clearances and passes. United have one of the best defensive records despite the worthless Lindelof because Maguire is so fantastic. Correct?

 

[Ekeke]

You are a little bit all over the place right now. First you talk about PL and work rate, responsibility etc based on some handpicked stats that you somehow believe are important, while saying gaining winning possession is not so important. Now you handpick some centrebacks around the world to prove something else, or the same. I don’t really see what you want anymore.

Your point is: Lindelof is worthless based on his numbers of aerials, interceptions, tackels, clearances and passes. United have one of the best defensive records despite the worthless Lindelof because Maguire is so fantastic. Correct?

I picked the CBs from the top teams. You said they dont need to do the things that lead to high stats thats your theory crafting

I gave you evidence that you are wrong, from the fact that all of these CBs from the top teams do more defensively than Lindelof. You can theory craft all you want, you're wrong.

 

[Halftrack]

No, by the definition you printed yourself from their website a clearance is intervening in an opponent's attacking move.

No, the definition I pasted had nothing about attacking moves, that's you narrowing the definition. Again. Their definition states simply that a clearance is an action that "temporarily removes the attacking threat on their goal/that effectively alleviates pressure on their goal." That's WhoScored's defintion. The dictionary definition is "kicking the ball away from one's own goal." Point is, no definition makes "intervening in an opponent's attacking move" a requirement, though I think WhoScored is correct in specifying that there has to be an attacking threat (and just for fun, Opta's definition of a clearance:

There's also a difference between booting the ball up the pitch and a long pass. A long pass is targeted, it's meant to get to a teammate. A clearance is, to use Opta's definition, "a defensive action where a player kicks the ball away from his own goal with no intended recipient." It does not have to come from, nor be headed towards an opponent. It could be a loose ball, it could be headed down to you from a teammate, it could even be passed to you from a teammate. If there's an attacking threat (opponent heading for the ball or coming in to challenge you in a dangerous area), by kicking the ball away, you're clearing it. If you clear it in the form of a long ball to one of your teammates up the pitch, cool! You've still cleared it, with the bonus of increasing your teams chance at keeping possession. The idea that it has to specifically intervene in an attacking move is one of your own invention that is not echoed by any definition of the term.

What you are thinking of a clearance isnt what whoscored's definition that you yourself went and found and pasted, says. Thats why you are very confused. It isnt "How many times does a player hoof the ball up the pitch" - thats long passes. Its how many times a player deals with a ball coming in and gets there before the opponent. You dont need to smash the ball into touch.

It's actually "how many times has a player relieved pressure or ended an attacking threat on their own goal." Happy to help.

 

[A-man]

I picked the CBs from the top teams. You said they dont need to do the things that lead to high stats thats your theory crafting

I gave you evidence that you are wrong, from the fact that all of these CBs from the top teams do more defensively than Lindelof. You can theory craft all you want, you're wrong.

No, let me tell you what I mean.

Having good numbers in your stats doesn’t mean being good.
But a good defender can of course have good numbers in your stats.
And a good defender can have low numbers in your stats as well.

Example of good CB having high numbers: Varane.
Example of good CBs having lower numbers: City’s CBs last season.
Example of CBs having high numbers in a match where they had a nightmare: Chelsea’s CBs vs Everton.

Regarding that last match vs Everton. If the CBs would have been better at gaining possession instead of just clearing it, they wouldnt have had to do so much defending.

 

[Ekeke]

Played well, had one moment with a big mistake giving the ball to Sterling just outside our box but other than that, part of a resiliant effort to defend our lead

 

[izec]

That block was awesome.

On the ball, he was poor. City closed him down without issues, and he daddled around

 

[Andycoleno9]

Very good game. Made one huge mistake but overall he was always on right place

 

[sullydnl]

Was very good today.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Mixed feelings after today, but overall did defend with a bit more bravery.

 

[Bojan11]

Still wish he was a bit more dominant in the air. There were a few headed clearances that didn’t really go anywhere.

 

[kiristao]

Good game today. One brain fart moment though. The block was amazing.

 

[Kamprad]

Good game. He’s braver on the ball. Tries the surging pass more often.

 

[Kostov]

One big mistake but other than that defended well. Good game

 

[Based Adnan]

Coming into form at the perfect time. Very good again today.

 

[SAFMUTD]

He’s lucky that mistake giving the ball away to Sterling didn’t end up in goal or we would be slaughtering him.

Anyway he seems nothing special he must improve or we must improve on him, but right now there are other critical areas to take care of first.

 

[Conor]

He always looks like he has one huge, potential game changing mistake in him. Not the nicest trait for a CB.

 

[Strats]

He made two crucial tackles, the one where the ball bounced up on his arm and the one on De Bruyne. Bar this mistake where he lost the ball I thought he once again was excellent.

Still needs to polish his game and improve his heading.

 

[#07]

He's got a rick in him, no doubt about that. However, there was much more good than bad today. That pleased me cos I started to doubt him lately.

 

[eltigreFalcao]

Not convinced by his performance of today, or even of lately. Maybe I'm starting to expect more from our first choice CB. But for the sake of the win and the team performance, well done to all lads. Hope Victor improve his game

 

[He'sRaldo]

These sorts of games suit him, I've noticed. In the games where he has to cover distance quickly and be physical, he struggles.

But today was a good game for him, his form has been good for some time now.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

The better CB today.

 

[Suedesi]

Played well today, except a brainfart when he gave the ball to Sterling which normally would cost us a goal.