It has nothing to do with work rate. Nothing at all. In the list of CBs there are only few who conceded leas goals than Lindelof.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 47
- Clean sheets
- 19
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 6
- Status
Which has to do with his team, not himself. Not every team has De Gea in goal and not every CB has Maguire next to them or AWB at right back.
Its 100% workrate
It's fairly clear he slipped again as he went to close Son down there.
Bit of a contrary opinion but I don't think our central defence is even bad. It seems to me like the lack of protection afforded by our complete absence of a defensive midfielder accounts for more defensive blunders than the defenders themselves. Likewise, we see a lot of problems coming from the left given that we don't have a strong force there. We only conceded to Spurs because McT gave the ball away in a poor position and allowed them to counter.
It can be said of any player, it was not on him but on the team.
Why do they call him iceman? His like the total opposite to cool and collected.
wat
No, winning the ball less than your CB partner is not on the team. Its on your partner taking more responsibility and doing more defensive work
Yes but this is something that is planned. Theres obviously a saying that Maguire shall attack the 50-50 balls and Lindelof fall back. Common sense really. Play your skills..
You cant both head in to the same duel.
I have no problem with differing opinions about his performance, I just wanted to point out that that statement can be made about all players and is pretty worthless as an argument.
Its not just this season, its every season. No matter who his partner has been.
And you're presumably talking about heading, but thats not it. On the floor he wins the ball less too, that should be his strength. If not defending on the floor, then what is his strength? There isnt one
I think his ' strength ' is probably that he reads the game quite well rather than just be a big, rockhead stopper.
Seems to make more interceptions and blocks than winning one-on-one heading duels and ball-on-the-floor tackles because he relies on this reading the game rather than just being a physical barrier.
If it isn't his strength, then I'm with those who don't really see a whole lot more to his game that makes him either different or an improvement on all our other CBs.
But thats just it. He doesnt. He doesnt make interceptions, actually he's made the 5th least of all CBs in the league that have played 10 or more games
There are 30 CBs who have played 10 or more games and made more interceptions than Lindelof
If we look at shots blocked, Lindelof and Maguire are joint with Basham as 2nd least amount of shots blocked
Maybe he has no strength in defending.
What about passing then?
He makes the 12th most passes of that same pool of CBs. With Maguire a place above at 11th
He just doesnt do much in general of anything.
And sure we have 1 of the top 5 defensive records this season in the league, but thats not because of him. As you can see his workload is very light. Its because we have the best defending right back in the league, a solid CB in Maguire and probably still the best shot stopper in the league in goal. If he was making a big contribution somewhere then fair enough but he isnt. Not in any way.
He is. But since you cant read it of whoscored, you dont get it.
If you use interceptions to measure how well a player reads the game you could argue Rio was average. But of course, he was not. You just dont understand the stats you use and use it wrong.
I think he was pretty good against Spurs. Keep that up.
Good game and multiple posts how shit he his.
I agree with alot of stuff here. He is not the physical CB type, even though he made good plays against spurs.
I would say his best defensive strength is blocking passing lanes and make attacking players taking worse options. He is good at that.
Problem occurs when he faces 1vs1.
Said it before, i rate VNL but think he benefits from a slower tactical leauge then EPL.
Bottom line, he was good against spurs and lets hope it continues.
I agree with alot of stuff here. He is not the physical CB type, even though he made good plays against spurs.
I would say his best defensive strength is blocking passing lanes and make attacking players taking worse options. He is good at that.
Problem occurs when he faces 1vs1.
Said it before, i rate VNL but think he benefits from a slower tactical leauge then EPL.
Bottom line, he was good against spurs and lets hope it continues.
I often wonder with these kind of stats how they, for example, calculate interceptions if the opposition plays a long ball and the defender heads it down to a teammate. Pass or interception? Because I'll bet that Maguire's or Lindelof's (or Rio's for that matter) interceptions finds a teammate more often than Smalling's for example.
Still geting better. Solid last games.
As much as i dont think Smalling is that great CB @Ekeke and some others make him out to be, he is better and more consistent in defending than Lindelöf. That much is obvious, and probably a better partner to Maguire as well.
And i agree on the notion that Lindelöf has no real strength or special attributes, he is just a body back there and easily replaceable. There is no improvement over the years, he is almost the same player once he settled down a bit. I dont see it with him, the stats back it up what i think of him as well. He is ok as a squad player, but he is the definition of an average CB for the level we aspire to be on respectively we had in the past. There are a handful of games in a season where i think that was a really good performance, but most of the time i just think that he isn't up to it.
And i agree on the notion that Lindelöf has no real strength or special attributes, he is just a body back there and easily replaceable. There is no improvement over the years, he is almost the same player once he settled down a bit. I dont see it with him, the stats back it up what i think of him as well. He is ok as a squad player, but he is the definition of an average CB for the level we aspire to be on respectively we had in the past. There are a handful of games in a season where i think that was a really good performance, but most of the time i just think that he isn't up to it.
Has nothing to do with work rate and nothing to do with proactive as (actually more the opposite).Most important, it has nothing to do with how efficient you are as a defender.
Most experts, football journalists, people on this forum, etc, seem to agree Lindelof had a good or very good game against Tottenham. His figures were : tackles 1, interceptions 1, clearances 3, aerials 1. That is below his average and below average for a defenderOn the other hand he had 10 ball recoveries which is one of many other important aspects missing in your stats.
If you compare Lindelof’s figures with City’s CB figures from last season, when they won the PL, you will find that Lindelof and City’s CBs have very similar figures.
The point is that he should have never had a shot in the first place. He let Trezequet get there far too easily and even though he telegraphed his foot (as you would have to need to hit a shot with that power), Lindelof still let him shoot unchallenged.
First off there is no hate or agenda here. I can praise his brilliant header the other day and criticise in equal measure. I'm only calling out on his very obvious individual deficiencies and it's not just on him. For example, although I like what Mcguire brings, I noted he was also stand-offish and doing something stupid in that Son chance. In his own performance thread, whilst others are praising his ball-playing ability, I'm criticising his lack of nous when playing passes and forcing the issue far too many times.
Secondly, this is not cherry picking as this whole thread is basically proof that there are many many people, who find his passive and unengaging style not good enough.
I mean is he 3 out of 10 bad? No, he's a 6 with very rare 7s and from what I've seen in the past 3 years, he is nowhere near or has the potential to be an 8. If he was a consistent 7 then fair enough, for us at this stage of the 'rebuild' that's adequate but he's really not. Do I think Mcguire is a 7 right now? Nope, he's a solid 6 at the moment and I'm not even sure he can be an 8 but at least he has shown far more to be a 7 in the future.
I wish the best and will always support any Utd player on the pitch in the same way I do the same with OGS but in reality that is just blind hope and you need to call is as you see it.
Not gonna fact check the stats @Ekeke has provided but that doesn't surprise me. Low engagement in anything actually effective.
City have all of the ball and yet win the ball more than Lindelof
He was fine against Spurs, didnt have a lot to do because other people took responsibility like normal. Dealing with having little to do and dealing with having a lot to do are very different things.
Examples - Maguire, Wan Bissaka and Young each won more headers than Lindelof. All 3 won more tackles, and made more interceptions. Maguire and Young made more clearances with Wan Bissaka making less.
Maguire made more passes, Young and Wan Bissaka made less.
These 3 take responsibility far more often than Lindelof, who waits for other people to do it so he has less to do. When you're more active and taking more responsibility you're going to make mistakes more often, but someone needs to do it. You cant have everyone hiding from it.
This is the problem when you take a handful of aspects in to consideration but leave out others
: they don’t represent the game nor the player. And it gets even worse when you make up your own definitions as these handful of figures would represent “work rate” or now you even call it “responsibility”. As I showed before Maguire and Lindelof challenge for more or less the same amount of defensive aerial duels. No difference there.Lindelof challenge for 4.0 defensive aerials per match and Maguire 4.2. Then Maguire has almost one interception more per game. That’s the difference in “taking responsibility”.... At least when you leave out a lot of important stats, like Lindelof’s 10 ball recoveries.
Of the handful of stats you showed, we could all see that PL best team last year had similar figures to Lindelof. Meaning Kompany, Laporte, Stones, Otamendi took just as little responsibility according to your hypothesis, yet won the PL. I haven’t checked but I believe Lindelof had higher figures than all of the CBs in City last season. And United were leaking. Most likely because the worse team you play in, the more reactive defending you need to do (clearances, headers, etc). That’s why some CBs in Watford have higher figures than Pique. Doesn’t mean Watford’s centre backs are better than Piqué or taking more responsibility. Just that they do a lot of reactive defending.
The point is that there was never any chance. Sure he could have blocked to shot to give a way a corner but an open shot from impossible angle is better.
Yes, 1 more interception per game.
Thats led to 13 more interceptions for Maguire than Lindelof this season
Both the same amount of tackles
31 more Aerial Duels from Maguire than Lindelof
8 more clearances for Maguire than Lindelof
1 more shot blocked for Maguire than Lindelof
104 more passes for Maguire than Lindelof
Maguire has played 15 games to Lindelof's 14, so if you add his average to his numbers (which are low) he's still done a lot less.
I am under the impression that Maguire's role is to play slightly higher up than Lindelöf's. Usually Lindelöf is the furthest back in the field, which will certainly also affect his numbers. I'm certain this is an intentional strategy.
It's getting somewhat tiresome reading your repeated bashing of this player though. We get it, you think he sucks and should be sold and replaced with Smalling, because you have numbers that say so, even though there are also numbers that say otherwise, but we can just ignore those.
It seems to me that some have simply made up their minds and that's that. Nothing else matters.
There are a lot of flaws in this team and I certainly can't single out Lindelöf as being a main issue. There are at least 5 other players that I'd want to replace before him.
I'm a bit disappointed that Lindelof hasn't developed his game that much since coming to our club, even though he has been playing regularly.
Not sure if he lacks so much in the physical department or lacks bravery in his style of play, maybe a bit of both is a more balanced assessment.
I wish Bailly hadn't turned out so injury prone, could have been a fantastic CB next to someone like Maguire, so he could cover for his lack of pace.
Not sure if he lacks so much in the physical department or lacks bravery in his style of play, maybe a bit of both is a more balanced assessment.
I wish Bailly hadn't turned out so injury prone, could have been a fantastic CB next to someone like Maguire, so he could cover for his lack of pace.
When we look at some of these reactive actions he has done less of some
Of them, yes. That does not in any way translate to how much good you do on the pitch.
Just because Maguire passes the ball 62 times per match vs Lindelof’s 59 or challenge 4.2 defensive aerials per match vs Lindelof’s 4.0 does it make him doing much more. First of all stats doesn’t tell you who performs best or do most, that’s why last years best team had lower figures than Lindelof. Secondly this handful of stats doesn’t represent the game. Lindelof scores an important goal, not part of your stats. Lindelof had 10 ball recoveries in the last match, not part of your stats. It doesn’t tell you who screw up an offside line. In your stats a cool
Defender who protects the ball to goal kick earns zero credibility but a stressed CB who clears the ball to a corner gets points. Etc Etc. Worthless.
No I dont think he sucks, so maybe you should learn to read properly.
I think he's an average CB. I dont think he sucks. He'd be fine as a backup (and I'd prefer to keep him over Bailly or Rojo who are erratic) and he's a hold over in the lineup for now until Tuanzabe takes his chance, or we sign someone else in the summer
But I cant point out, with evidence, that he's not doing a lot and isnt important to our record without people like yourself being childish and suggesting I think he sucks, or I hate him, or that I've made my mind up about him and nothing he does can change that.
Fact is he started playing a bit better in the back end of last season and I rated him more. Now he's back to normal.
Tell me about these ball recoveries then. Explain what they are, if they arent just picking up loose balls that nobody has. Tell me how Lindelof has 10 of them
Ball recovery is getting control of a ball none of the teams have control of.
So picking up the ball when nobody has it. It doesnt matter if its 1 yard from you and 20 yards from the nearest opposition player. Its getting the ball when nobody has it to take it from them
It’s getting possession to your team when no one has possession. There was an article about Casemiro( in RM home page), who has most recoveries in la Liga. He had about 7 as an average, 11 his max in a match. So recovering the ball and getting your team the possession 10’times in a match is relatively high. Probably more important than 2-3 extra passes in the back line.
I agree that its as important or more important than 2 or 3 extra passes.
The difference is Casemiro isnt just picking up the ball when nobody has it.
He's also not that far off Ndidi's huge ball winning numbers, whilst doing more on the ball
Casemiro is another great example of someone's workrate being reflected by this ball winning and ball playing stats
I never said that Casemiro only is good at winning possession. I used his figures for you to get a perspective when you were introduced to a statistical concept that was new to you.I agree that its as important or more important than 2 or 3 extra passes.
The difference is Casemiro isnt just picking up the ball when nobody has it.
He's also not that far off Ndidi's huge ball winning numbers, whilst doing more on the ball
Casemiro is another great example of someone's workrate being reflected by this ball winning and ball playing stats
Thats my point. Its just one of the strings to Casemiro's bow, its not his entire contribution to ball winning.
And again it doesnt tell you much. At least with a tackle or an interception you know the player took the ball from the opposition.
With this "ball recoveries" it doesnt tell you if they are 50/50s, or if its 80/20s in Lindelof's favour or vice versa. So you'd need to look at every specific time he makes a "ball recovery" to work out if that stat is telling you anything. I'm sure some were good but I guarantee the 10 he had against Spurs werent all 50/50 or worse odds for him.
I agree with @Ekeke here.
For me Lindelöf is just not proactive enough as a CB for me. He waits and tries to 2nd guess the striker, will rarely ever actually try and disrupt what they want to do.
The Son chance sums him up perfectly. He's happy to sit off him and give him enough space to shoot, in the hop he can try and block it. He plays it safe as he doesn't want son to dribble passed him or make it look like he's made a mistake.
Instead he should be getting out to Son and making him take an extra touch, block the shot at a closer distance and you've got more of a chance.
He just isn't dominant enough for me. If I was playing against him i'd enjoy it.
For me Lindelöf is just not proactive enough as a CB for me. He waits and tries to 2nd guess the striker, will rarely ever actually try and disrupt what they want to do.
The Son chance sums him up perfectly. He's happy to sit off him and give him enough space to shoot, in the hop he can try and block it. He plays it safe as he doesn't want son to dribble passed him or make it look like he's made a mistake.
Instead he should be getting out to Son and making him take an extra touch, block the shot at a closer distance and you've got more of a chance.
He just isn't dominant enough for me. If I was playing against him i'd enjoy it.
It’s the same with all stats. A clearance could be a stressed feckup where a better player would have taken control. Or a very difficult clearance. A tackle is most of the time a recovery for not being able to read the game, but sometimes recovering another players mistake. You don’t see that in the stats. But in general, winning possession for your team is a good thing.
Most weird is how the amount of passes is one of the stats you use to tell if a player does much or little. Lindelof has 59 passes per match. Smalling had 39.8 passes per match, 39.2 the season before and 25.8 three seasons ago. Still you seem to believe he is a player that does a lot on the pitch.
This discussion about Lindelof reminds me of Don Quijote, he also fought with windmills.
With statistics, you can prove anything, often misleading because it is just fragments of a reality that is more complex.
Those who have statistics like their religion are often blind to everything else, like most fanatics, so it's better to trust what you see with your own eyes.
In my eyes Lindelöf is not perfect but a good CB, in the match against Tottenham even better than the world's most expensive CB.
The fact that we see things differently is well known and the conclusion is that the future must show who is right or wrong.
With statistics, you can prove anything, often misleading because it is just fragments of a reality that is more complex.
Those who have statistics like their religion are often blind to everything else, like most fanatics, so it's better to trust what you see with your own eyes.
In my eyes Lindelöf is not perfect but a good CB, in the match against Tottenham even better than the world's most expensive CB.
The fact that we see things differently is well known and the conclusion is that the future must show who is right or wrong.
No, it isnt. A clearance is a defender getting something on a ball aimed in towards an opposition player.
A loose ball is a ball that nobody has, nobody is trying to play to another player that might reach them if the defender doesnt get something on it. Its literally taking a ball that nobody has and half the time, no opposition player is going to be near it so it would be hard not to take the free ball. In fact it would be a big mistake.
You cannot in any way shape or form tell what a "ball recovery" is without watching the incident and seeing if its a 50/50 or if one player was right next to where the ball broke and the opposition were nowhere near it and were never going to get it.
There will be moments where its great play reacting to a loose ball and getting there before an opponent in a great position, or when the opponent is 70/30 likelyhood to get there.
But that is not every loose ball, so the stat doesn't mean anything without evidence of the situation.
A tackle is a tackle. You took the ball off the opponent. An interception is an interception, you got in the way of a pass that was intended to be played to an opponent.
A ball recovery is... Anything. You just need to have the ball after nobody had the ball.
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