I think there were two and one was joking (though both or none could have been) but one way or another, the notion that GB is far less racist (as in "decades ahead") than Spain is still present.
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
- Start date
Would absolutely love him at United. On the left, Garnacho on right.
He's had 6 seasons at madrid now. 2 titles, scored the winner in a CL final. time for a new challenge
He's had 6 seasons at madrid now. 2 titles, scored the winner in a CL final. time for a new challenge
I’m going for banning the racists and not shifting any blame to the victims.
Racist are in the pitch too? Even if are not racist chants he will get provoked from rival fans. He needs to control himself.
I think your wires are crossed a bit here. Brexit was seen as a joke for the longest time, a lot of people didn't vote; a lot of people trolled for the lols, and there was collective shock when it actually went belly up. There were vehement parts of the country who were wholly behind Brexit, but many remained [far] too indifferent until it was too late. You're free to pull that out as fact, because turnout and vote states it happened, but there's a lot of context missing and a serious Brexit vote would not be a 50% split. Take my own view as you will, but being in this country at the time, anecdotally, it wasn't backed with the fervour you think and there was abject horror from those who had lol'd along and done nothing to affect the vote when it actually went through. The hubris at the time was outrageous, especially in hindsight.
The greater ill over the last decade is the rise in Islamophobia and flagrant attacks and animosity toward those of the faith. I should think crimes of that nature are what have shot up as a whole with internet grifters firing up simpletons to go out and do their bidding. From the outside in, it might all look like much of a muchness and I get that, but overt racism is heavily frowned upon here and you simply cannot conduct yourself as they do in Spain and Italy and get away with it either by law or societally, unless you live in a like-minded place that emboldens your actions. Even then, collectively, people know it's wrong and that the consequences for getting caught could be dire. There's no such concern in Italy or Spain. Getting 'caught' is of no concern because there is no reprimand; there is barely acknowledgement such conduct is wrong, which is what is alluded to in stating they are x amount of years behind those who have had to tackle racism head on to even get to where we are now.
Point is, even if you are a racist here, you better be around like-minded individuals to run your mouth or conduct yourself in a deviant manner. If you are not, the consequences for you could either be criminal charges, or in some cases, another kind of consequence that ensures such people pick and choose when and where they air themselves. That doesn't exist in either of the aforementioned countries. They live their lives and carry their views openly and blatantly without consequence or fear. That's stuff of the 1980's, here, again, unless you live amongst like-minded individuals.
I think you're trivializing right now. It's only logical that you feel the need to correct me because my outside view is very limited. I don't experience the everyday life in Britain the same way you do because I'm not living in the UK and naturally you feel I project the actions of a few on the country as a whole. But that sounds familiar, doesn't it? Spanish people probably feel the same when people describe the country as a whole as racist because the actions of some football fans. But to adress the arguments you made about Brexit: Doesn't it speak volumes that people seemingly didn't take it seriously? Shouldn't even the slightest chance of a xenophobic and nationalistic vote make all alarm bells ring? And if those didn't ring, doesn't that mean that many in here didn't take those things as seriously as they should have because it didn't seem to bother them all that much in the end?
In the end, however it came to be, it happened and for it to happen large parts of the population, even if not over 50%, needed to be xenophobic and nationalistic or at the very least indifferent to it. So to me, criticism is just but not from a high horse.
No. The fans need to be banned and prosecuted. He’s the victim, there’s quite a few who need to ”control themselves” before this guy.
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No, he doesn't. He has done nothing wrong.
I'm doing anything but trivialising, and this is an open forum with thousands of people from England and the surrounding countries plus Ireland who can and will pull me up if anything I am saying was nonsense or a trivialisation. In fact, given the seriousness of the subject matter, I'd prefer you not parse my post to the portion you wish to discuss whilst ignoring the rest, which is just as, if not more important, given it provides context.
You've not addressed what I've said about overt racism at all - you categorically cannot do what they are doing in Spain to Vincius here, or what has happened countless times in Italy to black players. Categorically, that will have you removed from stadiums, potentially banned for life, potentially doxxed and potentially cancelled in terms of your real life, and you have to be around like-minded people in like-minded communities to act as you see them doing casually in the aforementioned countries. Why? Because that has been ironed out here and you literally have to go back to the 80's to be in a time when it was so widespread and without reprimand here. That's 40 years ago. That is how far behind these countries are in terms of tackling even the basics before delving beneath the surface. Spain aren't even ready for open debate on what is so wrong about taunting 23-year old black players systematically around the country with monkey noises and throwing banana skins etc. there is a chasm between the nations with regard to overt racism - even if views align covertly, you know to keep your mouth shut here and not risk the gauntlet of losing everything, unless you have nothing to lose in the first place, or you are that far gone as far as being a racist is concerned that you have no fear of the world at large knowing who you are and your position in such matters.
On to Brexit. If you take this country back to the 80's, let alone prior, there was great pride and chest-thumping about the British Empire and jingoistic, xenophobic positions were common and widespread - normal. Region and demographics have a lot to say when it comes to who, in the main, voted for Brexit with a serious hat on. That's not to say all Brexiters are racist, of course that's not the case, but there is a solid element who espouse 'the old ways' 'the old values' and would welcome it back with open arms. There's also a lot of current voters who were raised in the times where people of colour had a horrific time in the country - what was their bliss was anything but for others. They don't have to be racist to wish for those times back. Indeed, they can be blissfully unaware of trials and tribulations others faced as it didn't have anything to do with their own life experience. The complexities of the Brexit vote are too much for the football segment of this site, but there is a need to point out that you are conflating a fair amount of things and making 5 out of 2+2 probably because you can't possibly know of the context unless filled in on it. And please don't assume I am trying to be condescending or intending to put you down - how can you possibly know nuance if you're not informed of it? Countries weave complex webs and pretext is important. Nobody here would be shocked at the stances people take because the position of most factions is marked in the sand - any poll, any vote, that affects city or country, the turn out from the younger folk will be considerably worse than that of the older generations. The younger folk who were trolling the Brexit campaign and even voting against their own interests severely underestimated the hand they were up against. Brexit got very serious here when the realisation it could happen dawned on those who were bemused and/or entertained did nothing initially. The whole nation is paying for that folly now, with no takebacks or re-do's. A lesson we're paying for now.
I'm going to repeat what I already said, too - you don't have to be racist to be a staunch nationalist; Brexit doesn't really have a place in this discussion and its strokes are much broader than those reserved for those who can casually rock up at a football match, act like berserk animals making racist noises and actions, laugh about it, leave, and go about their lives after the fact like nothing disgusting just took place. Or to 'let off some steam' as Carvajal idiotically stated.
Good people will be supporting Brazil vs Spain today.
God bless you Vini.
God bless you Vini.
Bang average when playing for us.
My experience as a person of colour is infinitely better in the UK than it has been in basically every other European countries I've visited or lived in. This is an experience repeated from lots of other people of colour I know.
Some of the overt racism in particular I've received, especially in southern and central/ Eastern Europe, has been pretty shocking. And I'm not talking about small villages but large/ capital cities.
It's actually pretty awful.
There are obviously still racists in the UK, as well as systemic racism.
And what's happening to him, as well as some of the posts about it from Spanish posters, is awful.
and come to united
I can only agree with you here. I'm not a POC myself, but I've travelled with many different POCs throughout Europe and currently live in Spain. My entire circle of friends is very diverse, so I at least allow myself an opinion as an informed third party. Spain has a completely different (and backwards) mindset when it comes to racism compared to the UK.
For the latest round of White Spanish Footballer Should Have Kept His Mouth Shut, I give you Dani Parejo, comparing being called an alcoholic to racial abuse
Good grief.
Sorry if I don't get it, but what part of what Carvajal said is so wrong?
1) Prefacing his argument with, what boils down to: I have black friends
2) Not acknowledging there is a nationwide issue here
3) Boiling racism down to "letting off steam"
Pretty much everything. The "my experience growing up with poc" is a staple defence used by racists to minimize the problem - not saying that was Carvajal's intent, but that is irrelevant - and talking about people hurling racial abuse out of anger and a desire to hurt someone equates racism to common insults
I wouldn't be against burning the racists down.
It’s a disgrace. Why must people go after how others look. It’s beyond stupid.
Vini are more than welcome to Manchester United.
Vini are more than welcome to Manchester United.
Thank you guys. He doesn't exactly say "I have a black friend", but if his personal experience living in a working class city with immigrants is irrelevant what is he going to say " ask Nico Williams who is black"?....
Then he sounds forceful asking for sanctions against racists.
With respect to equating racism to other insults I'm afraid many fans think the same.
In any case, it is not the first time that Carvajal has been asked about this, for being a team mate or because is known that he supports VOX. I think he is not going to leave that line, for nacionalism, or for not calling his own fans, which is the majority in the country, racist.
I see Chilavert weighed in a few days ago with his famed intellect. "Bread and Circus, the first one to insult and attack rivals is him. Don't be a faggot, football is for men."
The problem with Carvajal's statement is the implicit defense of people as 'not racist' because they are merely trying to 'insult with what they know will hurt.' Well. what they know will hurt him is racism. So they are doing racism. The problem boils down to what people are allowed to 'do' without 'being' and what they aren't.
It's particularly galling in Spain because the national anthem is often booed in games and conservatives are absolutely hysterical about it. Somehow that doesn't fall under the umbrella of "just hittin' 'em where it hurts."
It's particularly galling in Spain because the national anthem is often booed in games and conservatives are absolutely hysterical about it. Somehow that doesn't fall under the umbrella of "just hittin' 'em where it hurts."
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That would in fact be a much better answer. Carvajal has ZERO idea what is like to be the victim of racial abuse, he clearly doesn't understand it, so the best thing he could do would be to say "I don't know enough about this issue to comment". Attempting the minimize the issue, even unintentionally, is precisely the thing he should not have done
I know, but it doesn't excuse it
Ah. He supports the fascists. Cool.
Saw that. It’s very clear there’s still a long way to go if players can casually equate these two and not blink.
Absolutely disgusting, and I’m glad Vini’s consistently shining a light on it rather than shaking it off.
We should be breaking the bank for this guy. Offer them Rashford in part exchange.
The day after the match in Valencia there was a basketball game. Madrid-Barcelona in the palace of sports of the community of Madrid.
Racist shouts against a Barcelona basketball player in Madrid.
"This is not in keeping with the values of Real Madrid and its supporters and we have to be very angry. This can't be, I don't care if it's a Real Madrid or Barça player or another team, it can't be, we have to control this and fight against this and we're going to do it because this is more important than the title", stressed the Lithuanian.
The Spanish press is keeping quiet about this disgusting episode, and Vinicius? Quiet. link
2
Vinicius Jr. was due to testify today in the trial for the racist insults he received from fans at the Mestalla.
According to judicial sources, he even had the possibility of making this statement from Miami, but he has not even asked to do so... he prioritises his holidays.
3
Peter Federico, Real Madrid player on loan to Valencia. The Valencian player suffers an episode of racial discrimination identical to that of Vinícius, but neither the Brazilian nor Madrid have come to his defence. Racist insults from Real Madrid fans on his social networks for leaving for Valencia.
"The fight goes on" as Vinícius Junior says, but not equally for all. The 'Peter Federico case' has confirmed the hypocrisy of selective racism. It is clear that there is first and second class racism.
And finally, I leave you with this magnificent article. If you are interested, you can translate it. Link
I will leave the last part of the text here.
¨The truth is that the centre-back's stance and his gesture of protest reflect a way of thinking that is not very widespread in the media in this country. A black man who rejects an anti-racist campaign. A black man who is convinced that this whole campaign is useless, because it is based on arbitrary and artificial motives. It is not the black man's fault that racism exists. We are to blame. And it's not the black man's fault that Diakhaby doesn't want to appear in a photo against racism. It is the fault of those who use the wilcard of racism to defend their interests and not to really eradicate it.¨
Racist shouts against a Barcelona basketball player in Madrid.
"This is not in keeping with the values of Real Madrid and its supporters and we have to be very angry. This can't be, I don't care if it's a Real Madrid or Barça player or another team, it can't be, we have to control this and fight against this and we're going to do it because this is more important than the title", stressed the Lithuanian.
The Spanish press is keeping quiet about this disgusting episode, and Vinicius? Quiet. link
2
Vinicius Jr. was due to testify today in the trial for the racist insults he received from fans at the Mestalla.
According to judicial sources, he even had the possibility of making this statement from Miami, but he has not even asked to do so... he prioritises his holidays.
3
Peter Federico, Real Madrid player on loan to Valencia. The Valencian player suffers an episode of racial discrimination identical to that of Vinícius, but neither the Brazilian nor Madrid have come to his defence. Racist insults from Real Madrid fans on his social networks for leaving for Valencia.
"The fight goes on" as Vinícius Junior says, but not equally for all. The 'Peter Federico case' has confirmed the hypocrisy of selective racism. It is clear that there is first and second class racism.
And finally, I leave you with this magnificent article. If you are interested, you can translate it. Link
I will leave the last part of the text here.
¨The truth is that the centre-back's stance and his gesture of protest reflect a way of thinking that is not very widespread in the media in this country. A black man who rejects an anti-racist campaign. A black man who is convinced that this whole campaign is useless, because it is based on arbitrary and artificial motives. It is not the black man's fault that racism exists. We are to blame. And it's not the black man's fault that Diakhaby doesn't want to appear in a photo against racism. It is the fault of those who use the wilcard of racism to defend their interests and not to really eradicate it.¨
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What is it with Barcelona fans and racism on this forum?
There is not a more awful set of fans here. Literally what the feck?
Nor did I think it was possible for my opinion of a club to do such a massive 180 in the way it has for Barcelona.
What is it with all the Barca newbie posters and their stance on racism?
Ok seriously, how is that racist moron not banned yet?
Their stance on everything is terrible
Barsa fans have the worst takes I swear. They blend the victim complex of Liverpool, megalomania of Madrid, football style fundamentalism and a healthy dose of Catalonian supremacism that just makes them unique and detectable from a mile away.
Gosh this post is abhorrent.
He was banned over an hour before you posted this.
Thank you.
That guy was a prime example of someone being racist without probbly noticing it or thinking about it. Unfortunately quite a common trait in Spanish society.
Probably just the same person who gets banned and registers again.
That’s absolutely fecking disgusting. Downplaying racism and also being homophobic to boot. What constitutes a “man” in his definition? Not being understandably upset when people are being racist cnuts towards you?
I have the utmost solidarity for Vini, and all the people who are being racist towards him and/or victim blaming the kid should be ashamed of themselves.