Vinicius Junior

SilentWitness

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It really must be said that "Racism Equals Bad" is a near-universal opinion in the West.

Saying "I think the racist chants are bad" or "I don't approve of racism" or whatever, doesn't mean much. It just means "I know what I'm supposed to say because I live in society." I'm sure many of the people yelling "monkey" would characterize themselves as "not racist."

To the wider world, it comes across like Spain doesn't care about racism. Not because they haven't denounced racism. They have. But my parrot can denounce racism too. It's rote repetition with no understanding behind it.
I think you are right in terms of the understanding. Many people will hear others saying don't say this or don't do that but they don't truly understand why it isn't okay to do it or say it and they'll continue to do so in environments they feel safe and comfortable to do so. Spain quite clearly has an issue in that people feel safe and comfortable to be racist and use racist language quite regularly and it's incredibly depressing that people aren't making more of an effort or stand to change that.
 

Alex the Red

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My favourite outcome of this, pre sending off is if all of the Real Madrid players had stood by Vini and walked off the pitch. Even better if the Valencia players had done so too. I have not heard racist comments for years at an English footy ground - maybe I sit in quieter areas, but I think folk are more likely to report it and the stewards or club take action. It appears that in cases like this one in Spain the main club action is apologising but not banning the perpetrators and any who follow them.
 

Rooney in Paris

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My post is for people with a minimum of understanding.
Okay, guess that’s me excluded then.
He's clearly excluding himself. He's as tone deaf as Xavi, and a lot of the Spanish population. Completely missing the point.

Congrats on those who have tried engaging him though.
 

Melbourne Red

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I think you are right in terms of the understanding. Many people will hear others saying don't say this or don't do that but they don't truly understand why it isn't okay to do it or say it and they'll continue to do so in environments they feel safe and comfortable to do so. Spain quite clearly has an issue in that people feel safe and comfortable to be racist and use racist language quite regularly and it's incredibly depressing that people aren't making more of an effort or stand to change that.
Based on some of the quotes and arguments, there seems to be a tendency to draw an equivalence between racism and other types of verbal abuse. Racism has a difference force because it carries the weight of historical oppression and ongoing imbalances in power. It's also fundamentally dehumanising. It's different. That's why we treat it differently. It's weird to have to explain it. I thought this was already an established starting point for the discussion.
 

Rooney in Paris

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As the general outrage and this thread (+ even some mods) show once again, most people can't seperate 2 different topics. One being racism and the other unsportsmanlike behaviour. Because the first one is way worse, it somehow equalizes and excuses bad behaviour, or simply doesn't get any attention. If you talk about the latter, you get canceled because of the first one. Xavi should know, that in these times it's better to be silent sometimes. That goes also for this thread.
Ah, a little bit more from the other Chuckle brother. But I'd recommend you to take a page out of your own playbook.
 

Swoobs

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Ah, a little bit more from the other Chuckle brother. But I'd recommend you to take a page out of your own playbook.
Dont see what is wrong with what he said though, both are issues just that one is larger than the other so obviously one got a lot more attention and outrage than the other.
So instead of throwing shades at that user, address his point and what you so disagree with?
 

RedRoach

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I appreciate your perspective, and it's definitely quite unique and comprehensive, but I think this is downplaying just how difficult it is for Latin American populations arriving in Spain. I don't think they'd consider Spaniards to be particularly "most welcoming", and it somehow ignores just how much casual racism/xenophobia they have to put up with.
Well, having been an immigrant to a variety of countries, what I can say is it is not very different in each country. As an immigrant you always have to fight harder than the local population who undeniably get preferable treatment, and this is pretty much universal wherever you immigrate to. This is why the immigrant population are so important because they tend to fight harder and work harder than the locals because they have to.

The locals do tend to not necessarily accept immediately someone from outside the country and it takes work on the part of the immigrant to adapt (learn the language, learn cultural behavioural norms etc.). My son for example (who is English, born in the UK) and arrived at later age, most of his close friends are South American because the locals were less accepting and already have established friend groups.

It is often not until the second generation of immigrants when people truly integrate.

This issue is not necessarily always related to racism however, and is pretty universal if you are foreign. Xenophobia maybe.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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So instead of throwing shades at that user, address his point and what you so disagree with?
The user isn't making an actual point. They are passive-aggressively complaining about the flack they got from making this post, where they claim Vinicius Jr. is "vile and disgusting" and "the lower classes" are a breeding ground for racism.
 

Rooney in Paris

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Dont see what is wrong with what he said though, both are issues just that one is larger than the other so obviously one got a lot more attention and outrage than the other.
So instead of throwing shades at that user, address his point and what you so disagree with?
It's been done in several posts more eloquently than I could, it's about context and the time and place. Things don't happen in a vacuum. Words aren't just words, there is a context to everything. And the context of what happened on Sunday means that discussing anything else is totally irrelevent. Carlo Ancelotti's post-match interview was the best manifestation of this - nothing else matters.
'I am not condoning Russia for invading Ukraine, BUT to be fair Ukraine has some nazis too.'
Exactly.
 

Swoobs

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It's been done in several posts more eloquently than I could, it's about context and the time and place. Things don't happen in a vacuum. Words aren't just words, there is a context to everything. And the context of what happened on Sunday means that discussing anything else is totally irrelevent. Carlo Ancelotti's post-match interview was the best manifestation of this - nothing else matters.

Exactly.
I mean the Ukraine example can also be reframed as “I dont condone Russia invading Ukraine but Ukraine does need to tackle their corruption problems”. The focus should be on the invasion but it doesnt mean saying the latter deserves to be thrown shades at.


I agree, the focus should be on racism. Based on the recent post (didnt really see the previous one prior), he agreed that racism is the bigger issue and that xavi should have kept silent.

I guess his previous post sentenced him then
 

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My post is for people with a minimum of understanding.
What's this condescension? Your opinions are superior, is that it? Once again you sweep in to defend something you like (this time Xavi, the other time La Liga) without demonstrating any concern for the context of racism. Yes, that Xavi quote looks worse in isolation from the rest of his quote, but you haven't even mentioned that, youvejust been here to say that Vinicius did deserve that red card. No context, no sympathy, just defending Xavi's words.

How tone-deaf can you be.
 

carvajal

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What bothers @Niemans and other culés is that Lewa's sanction (totally exaggerated) was not reviewed, even though the sporting and obviously social context is totally different.
 

giorno

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I don't know if it was his intent but the more I read Xavi's quote the more tone deaf it gets. He's basically equating racial abuse with rudeness. Feck sake
 

top1whoisman

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I don't know if it was his intent but the more I read Xavi's quote the more tone deaf it gets. He's basically equating racial abuse with rudeness. Feck sake
Yep. The message that I picked up was "me, me, me, I've also been abused."
 

Cloud7

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Still a bit disappointed as well but the full quote sounds much better
The full quote does sound better in that he did comment on the racist chants being unacceptable etc however it would have been really easy for him to just not comment on the red card issue. That’s my only point of contention really. In light of what’s happened there’s no need to bring up the card being rescinded.
 

Zehner

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The full quote does sound better in that he did comment on the racist chants being unacceptable etc however it would have been really easy for him to just not comment on the red card issue. That’s my only point of contention really. In light of what’s happened there’s no need to bring up the card being rescinded.
Agree with that
 

cafecillos

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I thought Xavi was alright here:


(My) translation: (The journo starts asking a "question": "Madridismo and the society at large is going to praise you...", Xavi interrupts him) "It's not about "Madridismo", the shirt doesn't matter, Vinicius is a human being, he is not a Real Madrid player before he is a human being, we need to defend any professional footballer/human being above the team colours, this doesn't matter [what team the player plays for]".
 

Melbourne Red

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I thought Xavi was alright here:


(My) translation: (The journo starts asking a "question": "Madridismo and the society at large is going to praise you...", Xavi interrupts him) "It's not about "Madridismo", the shirt doesn't matter, Vinicius is a human being, he is not a Real Madrid player before he is a human being, we need to defend any professional footballer/human being above the team colours, this doesn't matter [what team the player plays for]".
Interesting, that provides some context. Thanks for posting.
 

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If Valencia player doesn't get anything for headlock then i suppose its fair to cancel Vinicius red card, but why not just give Hugo Doro a red as well?

These people make no sense to me.
 

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Now that's a good response from Xavi
Well ultimately that is the main thing. Football isnt bigger than just being human.

What is Real Madrid’s plan on this topic, I hope (maybe just me) that teams will walk out of the next few matches in protest. Hopefully the big 3 can do that to make a statement. Might affect the relegation battles though
 

Isotope

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I thought Xavi was alright here:


(My) translation: (The journo starts asking a "question": "Madridismo and the society at large is going to praise you...", Xavi interrupts him) "It's not about "Madridismo", the shirt doesn't matter, Vinicius is a human being, he is not a Real Madrid player before he is a human being, we need to defend any professional footballer/human being above the team colours, this doesn't matter [what team the player plays for]".
That's very good from Xavi. I guess since he lives in Spain for probably until he dies, he probably feels a need to be diplomatic on his overall interview also. Hence, his red-card comment.
 

Zehner

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Well ultimately that is the main thing. Football isnt bigger than just being human.

What is Real Madrid’s plan on this topic, I hope (maybe just me) that teams will walk out of the next few matches in protest. Hopefully the big 3 can do that to make a statement. Might affect the relegation battles though
Without knowing the schedule, that could end in a team with racist chants actually profiting from it by being awarded points ath the green table
 

WeePat

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Without knowing the schedule, that could end in a team with racist chants actually profiting from it by being awarded points ath the green table
Yes but I suppose if teams kept doing it every time one of their players was subjected to racial abuse, then I’d hope it would eventually force the governing bodies to hand down harsher sanctions. Another thing they could do is make it known teams won’t forfeit the 3 points if they walk out protesting racist abuse. The game could be rescheduled behind closed doors.
 

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Without knowing the schedule, that could end in a team with racist chants actually profiting from it by being awarded points ath the green table
The best statement will actually come from Valencia themselves walking off the pitch in protest of La Liga’s indifference. But lets not kid ourselves, they have a relegation battle to fight even if thry had the intention in the first place
 

saivet

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I really think that was bad from Xavi. He talks about the issue like it's about verbal abuse which is disingenius. Verbal abuse IS an issue in football but that should not be the focus to what happens to Vini. Xavi makes it sound like it's all the same but it isn't. I am not sure if he is glossing over what happened or if it's just clumsy. Him being called son of such and such should not be tolerated but it shouldn't be equated to what happened to Vini.
That was my impression too. Sounded like he was diluting the issue by grouping any type of abuse from fans as similar to racist abuse. Perhaps he was trying to be relatable to other industries away from football but just seemed very clumsy.
 

GatoLoco

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That was my impression too. Sounded like he was diluting the issue by grouping any type of abuse from fans as similar to racist abuse. Perhaps he was trying to be relatable to other industries away from football but just seemed very clumsy.
I don't know if Xavi was thinking that all type of abuses are the same. Personally I very much doubt so. But let's not forget that some abuses can be especially hurtful and cruel and they don't belong specifically to any particular group.

Like for instance, "Mijatovic, your son is going to die".

https://www.marca.com/en/football/real-madrid/2017/06/03/5932b0a8268e3e332a8b45c3.html

Xavi may or may have not been clumsy expressing his view, but the debate is still very necessary.
 

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I can't post links, so I'm quoting Tebas nonpology from the guardian:

“I think that the message, and the intention I had, was not understood by a significant number [of people], especially in Brazil,” he told ESPN Brazil. “I did not want to attack Vinícius, but if most people understood it that way, I need to apologise. It was not my intention, I expressed myself badly, at a bad time."

I hate it when people do that. Shut the feck up, if you don't have the balls to really apologize or - more likely - if you still think you're right with your shitty opinion and folding due to public pressure. This shit makes my blood boil.
 

giorno

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We got a harsher financial penalty for failure to control in our game against you at Stamford this season than that :houllier:
What kinda mickey mouse nonsense is this?
Fun fact! This is getting praise and seen as a good, proportional response in Spain!

Hell it's getting praise in Italy too! With the usual "oh look how good they are at dealing with this we would never" stuff that makes your blood boil

One section of the stadium. 5 fecking games. Less than 40k fine to the club. Feck sake
 

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Sevilla fans calling for a boycott of their match against Real Madrid because Vinicius' red card was rescinded. Also, because people may fall into Vinicius' "trap" resulting in them being scapegoated and sanctioned for life.

https://www.vamosmisevillafc.com/propuesta-de-gradas-vacias-para-recibir-al-real-madrid/

Spanish football yesterday experienced one of the biggest scandals in history, comparable to those actions that were perpetrated when there was no television.

Madrid have managed to ensure that Vinicius is not sanctioned for his aggression towards Hugo Duro, following the ruling of the Competition Committee that withdrew the red card, despite the fact that there is graphic evidence and a report that faithfully reflects what happened.

Sevilla's next home game will be against the Merengue side, with the important Europa League final just four days away and with practically nothing to play for in LaLiga. For this reason, and given the impossibility for the club to take any action, various groups on social networks are proposing an act of protest against the outrage that is taking place in Spanish football, with the Negreira case also pending sanction.

We ask Sevilla supporters not to go to the stadium for the match against Florentino Pérez's team, or to do so after the start of the match, and then go to the president’s box to show their disagreement with the president of the Madrid team.

We also ask not to fall into Vinicius’s trap, as they will be eager to make us a scapegoat and sanction us for life.
Apparently, Vinicius is using Jedi mind tricks to make people racist. I knew it.

Spain is fecked.
 

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Sevilla fans calling for a boycott of their match against Real Madrid because Vinicius' red card was rescinded. Also, because people may fall into Vinicius' "trap" resulting in them being scapegoated and sanctioned for life.



Apparently, Vinicius is using Jedi mind tricks to make people racist. I knew it.

Spain is fecked.
Please José. Do your thing on Wednesday.
 

Cloud7

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Sevilla fans calling for a boycott of their match against Real Madrid because Vinicius' red card was rescinded. Also, because people may fall into Vinicius' "trap" resulting in them being scapegoated and sanctioned for life.



Apparently, Vinicius is using Jedi mind tricks to make people racist. I knew it.

Spain is fecked.
It's actually a shame (not really) those Barca lads were banned as it would have been interesting to see them try to justify this
 

GeneralKenobi

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Barca paid the refs for decades and nothing happened.

Vinicius gets racially harrassed and some Sevilla fans want to boycott a game to not fall in his trap.

Feck me.