which he's not that great at
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Yeah, Vini alone is fine, he's not super hard working but that's good enough. Mbappé+Vini is a nightmare though. It was obvious signing Mbappé would impact Vini, but we've been told by some here that the frenchman was a great addition, that he was working harder at Real Madrid than he ever did for PSG and a whole lot of horse crap like that. Real had in Vini a top5 player that needed a good midfield to shine in a balanced team but Perez decided that it was a good idea to sacrifice the team balance to add a superstar that barely tries off the ball.
Mbappe has scored 33 goals in 48 matches. He was a great addition for Real.
La Liga is rubbish.
The French league is worse.
Their biggest problem isn't Mbapp but their fullbacks and midfield.
No he's not, especially not this season when Real needed to rebuild its midfield and by at least one top fullback. These goals would have been scored by someone else, but the team would have been far more balanced with compatible players.
We heard the same thing at PSG when he left "he scored most goals, he's going to be impossible to replace". No player replaced him, the team replaced him and the team is better that it ever was with him. If you think that his total of goals is enough to prove he's been a great addition, there's something you're missing.
At great cost to the rest of the team. Their balance is off and the attack has no fluidity as it has all been compromised to accommodate Mbappe.
My (quite unpopular) take at the beginning of this season was that Bellingham would lose out as a result of the balancing act needed to accomodate Vini and Mbappe into the team. To his credit, he stepped it up another notch this season and his defensive work rate is outstanding. I don't think anyone in Madrid would be calling for Bellingham's head as a result of how their season's going.
Not really, every team that has a new player, specially upfront, has to accomodate.
The issue with Real it's more or less the same that with City, succesfull, yet they didn't replace correctly in areas that they need urgently to do it.
He's been poor but he'll inspire a second leg comeback, I've zero doubt about that
Their problem is the way the team is built, and it includes Mbappé. Obviously Mbappé would work with a team filled with top players at every position, but having him on the pitch with Vini decreases his influence and weakens their balance. It was a totally unnecessary addition and they'd been (Vini included) in a far better position had their money been invested differently. They're just not compatible.
No, not every team has a player upfront that runs 8-9km per game (without being Messi).
Trying to fit world class players into the starting eleven…what a wonderful problem to have.
Not Vini’s best game tonight, but it’s allowed, take away 2 wonderful free kicks and the noise around Vini and Mbappe wouldn’t be as loud.
Not Vini’s best game tonight, but it’s allowed, take away 2 wonderful free kicks and the noise around Vini and Mbappe wouldn’t be as loud.
It feels a bit like 2004/2005 now with Madrid. They had Figo, Zidane, Beckham, Raúl, Ronaldo, Guti etx but they were found out tactically. This teams seems similar, I think the addition of Mbappe has turned it into a bit of Galatico side rather than a well balanced side. Vinicious isn't the same and Bellingham goes missing in these type of games
Unfortunately so, adex!On this forum you're only as good as your last game. You know this
Every GREAT player it's compatible in terms of style and atributes, yet not every player it's compatible in the sense of getting along with another player.
In PSG times, people talked too much of Ney, Killian and Messi not defending, yet it's not such a huge issue, or just the only one.
Killian and Ney constantly clashing with their egos was way worse, that kills chemistry, that makes players go for the individual play and glory and fight for silly stuff the whole time.
Mbappe got really late that Messi was there to assist him like no one ever before and by the time he got it, the team had already collapsed (Messi wrongly never wanted to be THE GUY and that also was a mistake).
From the usual bloopers from the defense, to Verratti never really coming back from his latest injury, Ney injured once again and Vitinha looking like a mal functioning clone in comparison with current one...while also not having precisly the best coaches out there and never replacing players like Di Maria and cia properly with mature new comers with similar traits. To reduce that period to Ney, Killian or Messi not defending, it was just silly, easy food for Social Media.
For instance that Barca of Suarez, Ney and Messi, it wasn't extraordinary the pressing they did (bar Lucho being himself), it was a team playing as such providing a proper basement to let them be and create upfront. Their chemistry made them almost take advantage of every play they've done.
YET, by the time cockiness was too much, specially after winning the 2015 CL, the team as a whole was more lazy, some players in the mid got older and the cracks started to be visible.
For instance in Real the relantionship between kid Vini and Benzema and cia wasn't precisly great when Vini was still maturing, yet they finally got their act together and they created a betetr chemistry between them. Now they have to do the same.
And at the end of the day, the main issue for Real, more than their forwards being more or less defensive, it's their MIDFIELD.
Like City, they let their mid get old in the "clever" department, they got a lot of muscle, stamina, talent, youth, yet Modric got ancient, Kross retired and like City, they didn't do the correct moves.
When after this the team faced quite a numbre of injuries (like City too) all that previous suddenly succees goes to the toilet. Everything that stays put, that doesn't move, in this world gets eaten alive.
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Like we say over here, Ficticius Jr.
Dumb post
It's not just Mbappé coming in, Kroos retiring is at least as important in Bellingham's transformation (and team's overall performance). They don't have any direct replacement plus Modrić is one year closer to retirement, so Jude had been moved back to compensate for that — not that he's anything alike to Kroos but he's good enough at everything to cover for his absence at least in some areas of the game.
Last year he would often play either as a supporting striker or even as a (false-ish) facilitating number 9, yeah, as Joselu wouldn't always start. This yeah Carlo had experimented a bit with a 4-4-2 diamond with Bellingham as a number 10 but it was too unbalanced (as Viní and Mbappé don't work well enough as a front two except for very specific scenarios).
He actually does work way harder. But there's a long way to go from not doing anything at all and doing (at least) enough.
I think he'll be one of their outgoing the oncoming summer, he'll fetch a massive fee and help them in their quest for a more balanced squad.
I do wonder if they ever genuinely thought they could make a team of both him and Mbappe work.
I do wonder if they ever genuinely thought they could make a team of both him and Mbappe work.
Bet he never watches it.
Safe bet.
Like if it matters...for years Spanish teams were winning Europa League Cups, mid table teams winning against big clubs from other Leagues, yet people would still say that everyone was crap. Extreme vias and opnions does not need any sort of proof in favor or against.
Reading some posts here about Real Madrid you get the impression they are having a terrible year, similar to our season! Or similar our last season...
Exactly, people talking about them being terrible, it's not precisly the same as not being as good as they should with their squad or having some bad games.
Yeah, by reading these posts I feel like Real should sack the manager, sell half of their squad, get a whole new squad to play 3-4-3, and perhaps (if they are lucky) they may be ready to challenge in 3 or 4 years. Maybe.
They're just really good at still winning games with the elite mentality that they have but a large portion of their fanbase has been worried about performances this season particularly.
Has been questionable ever since Balond'Or-gate, which is a self-inflicted wound if I've ever seen one.
Thanks harms. Will be interesting if a new coach comes in who might be “strict” (well more strict than Carlo at least) on his team principles as in requiring every player to press and work hard off the ball - with both Vini and Mbappe in the lineup.
With all due respect to Manchester United, they have way higher standards.
Maybe. Maybe also a bunch of spoilt brats too. Wouldn’t cope well at all if they were in the PL.
They have some unbelievable players though that we don't have that will win them matches on their own, if we had Mbappé, Vinicius, Bellingham, Valverde etc I'd be expecting to be close to winning everything.
Real Madrid is the most extreme example of flaky/entitled fans, but I remember the 'sell Giggs, sack Fergie' days here, was a bit of a pisstake but people would get pissed off at finishing second or third in the league and a lot of players in the 2000s who would be a top 3 players for the current side were derided as being useless. I see that with Liverpool fans now too who are constantly moaning about the transfer market and not getting players in, or certain performances when they're winning the league by miles.
You adapt to your recent circumstances, if we finished 5th next year then all our players would be seen as brilliant and Amorim a miracle worker. 5th about 15 years ago would have been full blown crisis.
I think they have some overrated players, very flashy against weaker opposition.
Everything has been unsettled since Mbappe arrived, and it was spoken about in great detail in both this and his own thread that this is exactly what would happen as has come to pass. It's not just a new player, it's a player who takes up the running lanes and channels of the tried and tested who were already winning the club major trophies and being terrors that other sides couldn't contain for 90 minutes. Now? Others are constantly having to cater for a player whose natural game interferes with their natural game and that is creating all kinds of problems with balance and structure on and off the ball.
We can talk about issues with the midfield now that Kroos has gone and Modric is really a shadow of himself, but that's a fraction of the issue as we see clearly that in possession and running towards the opposition, Madrid are not harmonious and the old, lightening dynamic they had before Mbappe, has gone.
It was a poor signing for the team they had. Ill considered and it's costing them - ultimately, it may even end up in Vinicius having to leave to get to express himself fully again. "Figuring out" how to use two players who make the same runs as an organic aspect of their individual games is one of the hardest tasks to sort out and often leads to one or both having to forgo parts of their game, which is exactly what we're seeing now - Vinicius is losing his identity whilst Mbappe cannibalises the space.
They're also much, much easier to play against off the ball with these two in the same team - nobody caters for two who aren't interested in the defensive side of the game, and there too, Madrid are paying the price for a signing that steps on the toes of too many who are already there.
If you have to play Modric who is nearly 40 away from home against one of the most physical midfields in world football then there's something wrong. They haven't really replaced Kroos and Valverde is a brilliant player but he gets taken away from influencing the middle to play right back because Carvajal is missing.
They are kinda like we were a few years ago, Moments FC on steroids and scraping by on pure belief and mentality. Bellingham's interview after the Arsenal game was case in point, he just said 'we can turn this over, that's what Real Madrid does', that unwavering belief carries them to a certain level, but can only go so far without being a functional, balanced team.
I disagree, especially in the CL. His off the ball contribution was underwhelming but he wasn't doing "nothing". He ran 8.8 km last night, which is pretty much within his PSG standards, and he's still FAR behind his teamates in terms of pressing (pressing on opponent per game in the CL) contribution :
He's still a lazy basterd.
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Definitely that mentality that's helped them beat City in recent years.
Replacing Kroos is their big problem.