Vinicius Junior

Fortitude said:
Everything has been unsettled since Mbappe arrived, and it was spoken about in great detail in both this and his own thread that this is exactly what would happen as has come to pass. It's not just a new player, it's a player who takes up the running lanes and channels of the tried and tested who were already winning the club major trophies and being terrors that other sides couldn't contain for 90 minutes. Now? Others are constantly having to cater for a player whose natural game interferes with their natural game and that is creating all kinds of problems with balance and structure on and off the ball.

We can talk about issues with the midfield now that Kroos has gone and Modric is really a shadow of himself, but that's a fraction of the issue as we see clearly that in possession and running towards the opposition, Madrid are not harmonious and the old, lightening dynamic they had before Mbappe, has gone.

It was a poor signing for the team they had. Ill considered and it's costing them - ultimately, it may even end up in Vinicius having to leave to get to express himself fully again. "Figuring out" how to use two players who make the same runs as an organic aspect of their individual games is one of the hardest tasks to sort out and often leads to one or both having to forgo parts of their game, which is exactly what we're seeing now - Vinicius is losing his identity whilst Mbappe cannibalises the space.

They're also much, much easier to play against off the ball with these two in the same team - nobody caters for two who aren't interested in the defensive side of the game, and there too, Madrid are paying the price for a signing that steps on the toes of too many who are already there.
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Signing a talent like Mbappe it's never a bad thing.
Same thing happened when Ney arrived to Barca, Luis Enrique thougth that it would not work and Ney struggled quite a bit at first, yet it did, primarly because THEY make it work, there was no Lucho, Barca management, other players involved, they find that connection to click, it's extremely important with this caliber of talent because they all want the spotlight, they all want to play their way, they all want to mantein or increase their status.
In fact when they became (and the team overall) more complacent, Luis Enrique didn't want a thing with them and everything went to the toilet. I've heard not long ago, that Lucho was offered the PSG job when Messi was there and he rejected. I always thought that instead of Poch and Galtier, he would have been perfect, having already deal with a similar situation, yet if it's true, it also shows how that balance went sideways at one point and he didn't want to go trought a similar situation, because that balance and chemistry it's hard to obtain it without the players actually wanting that, dealing themselves with that.

Providing the necessary adjustments in the team to take advantage of him and him realizing what this new scenario demands, it's another matter than merely Killian stop being lazy, this las thing as much can be a consquence of him finding the necessary chemistry with his partners to do so, or his mates finding the equilibrium to let him be that lazy, yet all of them offering sthg different in a more balanced style. Yet like I've said, it's never a bad thing signing rare talents like Killian or Ney.

The mid it's the most crucial issue they have, because it's not just about the zone of the pitch, it's the intelligence of the players that where on charge of that area. Intelligence it's so overlook when it comes to players and teams overall, yet it's vital.

And the other one it's simply chemistry, Mbappe can still be quite lazy (at least defensivly, not in offering himself as an option of pass) yet if he really connects with the other forwards, Madrid can work.
If that it's not on the table, that makes everything harder, exposes in a bigger way what it's lacking instead of reinforcing their best atributes. Same happened in PSG when Messi arrived.

Solving the mid and the ego management in that forward line it's the main thing to do for them.

PD: Another subject it's how is Mbappe as a player since day one, his atributes, his personality traits, that some of them of course would make that Chemistry upfront harder. Same with Vinicius.
 
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Fobal said:
Signing a talent like Mbappe it's never a bad thing.
Same thing happened when Ney arrived to Barca, Luis Enrique thougth that it would not work and Ney struggled quite a bit at first, yet it did, primarly because THEY make it work, there was no Lucho, Barca management, other players involved, they find that connection to click, it's extremely important with this caliber of talent because they all want the spotlight, they all want to play their way, they all want to mantein or increase their status.
In fact when they became (and the team overall) more complacent, Luis Enrique didn't want a thing with them and everything went to the toilet. I've heard not long ago, that Lucho was offered the PSG job when Messi was there and he rejected. I always thought that instead of Poch and Galtier, he would have been perfect, having already deal with a similar situation, yet if it's true, it also shows how that balance went sideways at one point and he didn't want to go trought a similar situation, because that balance and chemistry it's hard to obtain it without the players actually wanting that, dealing themselves with that.

Providing the necessary adjustments in the team to take advantage of him and him realizing what this new scenario demands, it's another matter than merely Killian stop being lazy, this las thing as much can be a consquence of him finding the necessary chemistry with his partners to do so, or his mates finding the equilibrium to let him be that lazy, yet all of them offering sthg different in a more balanced style. Yet like I've said, it's never a bad thing signing rare talents like Killian or Ney.

The mid it's the most crucial issue they have, because it's not just about the zone of the pitch, it's the intelligence of the players that where on charge of that area. Intelligence it's so overlook when it comes to players and teams overall, yet it's vital.

And the other one it's simply chemistry, Mbappe can still be quite lazy (at least defensivly, not in offering himself as an option of pass) yet if he really connects with the other forwards, Madrid can work.
If that it's not on the table, that makes everything harder, exposes in a bigger way what it's lacking instead of reinforcing their best atributes. Same happened in PSG when Messi arrived.

Solving the mid and the ego management in that forward line it's the main thing to do for them.

PD: Another subject it's how is Mbappe as a player since day one, his atributes, his personality traits, that some of them of course would make that Chemistry upfront harder. Same with Vinicius.
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I'm sorry but when it leads to your attack capitulating and causes the disharmony we've seen, it's obviously a big issue, which is why teams have to be astute when picking who should fit into where - it was known, before Mbappe even went there, exactly what problems it would cause, and they were spoke about in this thread and his own at the time; if that then happens, it means people saw what was coming and it played out as they expected.

You can't just add star names to the pot and not have a concern about how they fit, or just blindly hope they will "figure it out" as that's plain bad squad building and will most likely cause disruption to those already there. United did the same trying to fit Berbatov into a stacked, synergous line up, where it also backfired as all those players couldn't play together and one had to make way.

The time we see all of those players thriving is the time we can say that it worked, but when one is doing OK and others are fading into the background, something has clearly gone wrong. We shouldn't be at an if stage with one of the most expensive players in the world; that means a player has been bought with no clear idea of how to use him, or use him in conjunction with others in the team.
 
Fortitude said:
I'm sorry but when it leads to your attack capitulating and causes the disharmony we've seen, it's obviously a big issue, which is why teams have to be astute when picking who should fit into where - it was known, before Mbappe even went there, exactly what problems it would cause, and they were spoke about in this thread and his own at the time; if that then happens, it means people saw what was coming and it played out as they expected.

You can't just add star names to the pot and not have a concern about how they fit, or just blindly hope they will "figure it out" as that's plain bad squad building and will most likely cause disruption to those already there. United did the same trying to fit Berbatov into a stacked, synergous line up, where it also backfired as all those players couldn't play together and one had to make way.

The time we see all of those players thriving is the time we can say that it worked, but when one is doing OK and others are fading into the background, something has clearly gone wrong. We shouldn't be at an if stage with one of the most expensive players in the world; that means a player has been bought with no clear idea of how to use him, or use him in conjunction with others in the
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I think that I'm not being clear of what I mean.That doesn't go against the simple fact that this current Madrid is lacking more work by their forwards and more solidarirty from them.
What I'm trying to say it's that even if being lazy it's far from great, that cohesive pressing it's great, that of course some traits are always desireable. When signing players of the Caliber of Mbappe, with many of those issues already known by everyone, the main focus should be to create the necessary chemistry among the forward line to make them click. If that happens, his lazyness it's minimize, they start to know when to pass, when to dribble, when to stay, when to go, things that now aren't happening and are way worse for them to give Madrid an edge, than Killian pressuring or not. In other words, thinking that if they all just start running like hell it would work (it never hurts thougth, specially to win a match), it won't work either in the long term to get the best of them. More important with these type of players it's to them connect in a level that they overload the rivals with their talent.
This BTW doesn't mean that these particular three would work now, in time or ever, yet it's the main thing to pursuit than a single thing of Killian, Vini or Rodrygo running more.

It's always that risk involve of not ending working when it comes to this caliber of players throw at the same time in the pitch, yet for me it's always worth the risk and in the case of Madrid even a necessity as a way of function and mantein their status quo.

PD: still on just an strict football sense, their lack of brains, specially in the middle of the park, it's for me their biggest issue. Those brains also not few times help to mantein the shape of those in the forward line, to keep them on check and guide the other more dinamic and more reckless in a way mids (some even are entirely mids in the way they play). Luka alone and at this stage must feel burnout with stress at this point.
 
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Oly Francis said:
Yeah, Vini alone is fine, he's not super hard working but that's good enough. Mbappé+Vini is a nightmare though. It was obvious signing Mbappé would impact Vini, but we've been told by some here that the frenchman was a great addition, that he was working harder at Real Madrid than he ever did for PSG and a whole lot of horse crap like that. Real had in Vini a top5 player that needed a good midfield to shine in a balanced team but Perez decided that it was a good idea to sacrifice the team balance to add a superstar that barely tries off the ball.
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Haven't watched you guys much this season, tbh, only full games i have watched was the knockout tie vs Liverpool, but you sure looked like a better team than you were in the last few seasons.

Mbappe has given you plenty of good times, i'm sure, but at the same time, i can't imagine your team missing him all that much, correct?
 
Morty_ said:
Mbappe has given you plenty of good times, i'm sure, but at the same time, i can't imagine your team missing him all that much, correct?
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We don't, part of it is because despite his stream of goals, he became pretty unlikeable, but also because the team couldn't plays the way it currently plays with him in the team. We rely too much on a high press to accomodate this kind of dead weight and another coach could obviously find a way to make Mbappé work but Luis Enrique's style is far too enjoyable to want something different.

Here's another graph to understand part of the reason why Real Madrid has an issue with Vini+Mbappé (+Rodrygo) :

EoSVJZR.png
 
Oly Francis said:
We don't, part of it is because despite his stream of goals, he became pretty unlikeable, but also because the team couldn't plays the way it currently plays with him in the team. We rely too much on a high press to accomodate this kind of dead weight and another coach could obviously find a way to make Mbappé work but Luis Enrique's style is far too enjoyable to want something different.

Here's another graph to understand part of the reason why Real Madrid has an issue with Vini+Mbappé (+Rodrygo) :

EoSVJZR.png
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The worst possible outcome for Mbappe is if PSG win the Champions League in the same season that Real Madrid get knocked out in the quarter finals by Arsenal. That would be a bad look.....
 
kouroux said:
Take Mbappe out, this team has still got massive issues in midfield and full backs.
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Yep. Injuries and lack of depth have been the issue this season

All season long it was clear that we could not play all of Jude, Vini, Mbappé and Rodrygo at the same time against strong teams. Problem is, going into this match, our options were:

- drop one of them for Brahim. Which not sure if it would help
- drop one of them for Modric/Camavinga, play 3 in midfield with Valverde and start Lucas V, who still has the odd great game in him once in a while but is generally a liability these days

We also missed Mendy - one of the best 1vs1 defenders in the world, who might have helped against Saka

We actually looked good, really good, when we had Ceballos available. Unfortunately he got injured....
 
giorno said:
Yep. Injuries and lack of depth have been the issue this season

All season long it was clear that we could not play all of Jude, Vini, Mbappé and Rodrygo at the same time against strong teams. Problem is, going into this match, our options were:

- drop one of them for Brahim. Which not sure if it would help
- drop one of them for Modric/Camavinga, play 3 in midfield with Valverde and start Lucas V, who still has the odd great game in him once in a while but is generally a liability these days

We also missed Mendy - one of the best 1vs1 defenders in the world, who might have helped against Saka

We actually looked good, really good, when we had Ceballos available. Unfortunately he got injured....
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Exactly, everyone knows that Killian should be less lazy and the front row play with more chemistry.

Yet Madrid had too many injuries and didn't replace former legends in the mid with really similar players to create some sort of similar trajectory.
 
Oly Francis said:
We don't, part of it is because despite his stream of goals, he became pretty unlikeable, but also because the team couldn't plays the way it currently plays with him in the team. We rely too much on a high press to accomodate this kind of dead weight and another coach could obviously find a way to make Mbappé work but Luis Enrique's style is far too enjoyable to want something different.

Here's another graph to understand part of the reason why Real Madrid has an issue with Vini+Mbappé (+Rodrygo) :

EoSVJZR.png
Click to expand...
GoGx6m5WgAI68cG
 
Oly Francis said:
We don't, part of it is because despite his stream of goals, he became pretty unlikeable, but also because the team couldn't plays the way it currently plays with him in the team. We rely too much on a high press to accomodate this kind of dead weight and another coach could obviously find a way to make Mbappé work but Luis Enrique's style is far too enjoyable to want something different.

Here's another graph to understand part of the reason why Real Madrid has an issue with Vini+Mbappé (+Rodrygo) :

EoSVJZR.png
Click to expand...

Don't even know how it's possible to be that much lower than Salah, who literally just stands on the halfway line when Pool don't have the ball.
 
Oly Francis said:
Thanks god we're told he's working way harder!
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As I've said, if the base level that you're starting from is zero, any improvement is a significant improvement. It's also stats from October. But yeah, he's shit off the ball.
 
Kwabs said:
The worst possible outcome for Mbappe is if PSG win the Champions League in the same season that Real Madrid get knocked out in the quarter finals by Arsenal. That would be a bad look.....
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Would be brought up in media everywhere.
 
giorno said:
Yep. Injuries and lack of depth have been the issue this season

All season long it was clear that we could not play all of Jude, Vini, Mbappé and Rodrygo at the same time against strong teams. Problem is, going into this match, our options were:

- drop one of them for Brahim. Which not sure if it would help
- drop one of them for Modric/Camavinga, play 3 in midfield with Valverde and start Lucas V, who still has the odd great game in him once in a while but is generally a liability these days

We also missed Mendy - one of the best 1vs1 defenders in the world, who might have helped against Saka

We actually looked good, really good, when we had Ceballos available. Unfortunately he got injured....
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Even when all fit they lack technical players, it's all physical from them. Outside of modric who is that good at passing?
 
Hammondo said:
Even when all fit they lack technical players, it's all physical from them. Outside of modric who is that good at passing?
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Ceballos is. Tchouameni when he plays well

Cama and Valverde are decent or good passers to, but not tempo setters

None of them is a great creative passer of course though, but then we rarely relied on that from Kroos and Modric either
 
giorno said:
Ceballos is. Tchouameni when he plays well

Cama and Valverde are decent or good passers to, but not tempo setters

None of them is a great creative passer of course though, but then we rarely relied on that from Kroos and Modric either
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Valverde has a great pass in him, yet he is not a tempo setter, that's it's primarly what I imply when I say Madrid lacks brains, to be more clever.
And indeed more than being fluently providing creative passing, Toni and Luka where more in charge of managing trying to managing the tempo and even as important, to not loose whatever shape the coach assigned. Madrid even with them most pf times tried to play fast on the break and with fellas like Di Maria, Ozil, doing that on the fly creative passing
 
Wand of a right foot said:
Mbappe is an overrated primadonna. Vinicius is better but he has issues in his head.
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Vinicius has had a poor season so far. I think he is better than Mbappe. I think Mbappe is more naturally talented but think Vinny works on his game more. Probably Mbappe's mindset.

At PSG, I remember (there's a clip), him and Neymar fighting who to take the penalty. This is when Messi was also on the pitch. One of the best PK kickers of all time, and he just watches on.

Neymar also said Mbappe was jealous of Messi - https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sto...-mbappe-was-jealous-messi-paris-saint-germain

I think this goes to show his ego is his problem. If he managed his ego, he could have much better performances and more goals etc..
 
Garnacho Libre said:
Vinicius has had a poor season so far. I think he is better than Mbappe. I think Mbappe is more naturally talented but think Vinny works on his game more. Probably Mbappe's mindset.

At PSG, I remember (there's a clip), him and Neymar fighting who to take the penalty. This is when Messi was also on the pitch. One of the best PK kickers of all time, and he just watches on.

Neymar also said Mbappe was jealous of Messi - https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sto...-mbappe-was-jealous-messi-paris-saint-germain

I think this goes to show his ego is his problem. If he managed his ego, he could have much better performances and more goals etc..
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I think mbappe has physical attributes above vinicius but that's about it. Vinicius is above him overall imo, a very good player.
 
Hammondo said:
I think mbappe has physical attributes above vinicius but that's about it. Vinicius is above him overall imo, a very good player.
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For sure he does. I think his ego is the biggest problem for him and it affects performances. He likely has the characteristics to be a world class player but certainly not in the bracket of quality right now. I do feel he is a scapegoat for a lot of fans. Madrid's biggest problem IMO is their midfield. That's where they need to build going forward IMO.
 
GatoLoco said:
GoGx6m5WgAI68cG
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I saw this video analysing our game. It basically sums up that:

That Carlo wanted Vini and Mbappe to drop deeper and sit on Partey and Skelly which would mean our defence couldn't pass through the midfield.

Which was a good idea but what ended up happening was that both of these 2 got a bit, lazy is a very unfair term, but slow in doing their job. So it meant either one of Partey and Skelly was free who would then pass onto a free Saka (as your entire team was very narrow to stop our midfield) or passed onto Rice or Odegaard. The latter two dominating Modric, who's legs gave away and Bellingham who didn't know whether to help Alaba track Saka or follow Odegaard. The video also analysed that Merino dropping deep caused a bit of a problem as your defence weren't sure whether to follow him. Which meant your midfield was outnumbered and any time your defenders followed Merino we had a man free running into the space - ie Skelly for the assist vs Merino. A lot of the above all down to Mbappe and Vini showing zero intensity in closing down or following men.

You probably can assess your club more but I do feel Mbappe was a luxury signing you did not need. But again I don't know your squad in depth.
 
Works hard on the ball but man he is nowhere near Neymar. It would have been a travesty for him to be Balon Dor and Neymar never won it.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Works hard on the ball but man he is nowhere near Neymar. It would have been a travesty for him to be Balon Dor and Neymar never won it.
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He's nowhere near close to Neymar off the ball either. Neymar at his best was pretty hard working defensively, and unfairly grouped in with Messi/Mbappe at PSG.
 
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DennisReynolds said:
He's nowhere near close to Neymar off the ball either. Neymar at his best was pretty hard working defensively, and unfairly grouped in with Messi/Mbappe at PSG.
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I wouldn't say exactly hard working but he did what needed to be done, unlike Mbappé and Messi. He really was unfairly grouped with them because of his superstar status though. He'll ever be one of my biggest frustration, he was the ultimate player in my eyes at his prime.
 
DennisReynolds said:
He's nowhere near close to Neymar off the ball either. Neymar at his best was pretty hard working defensively, and unfairly grouped in with Messi/Mbappe at PSG.
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So is Vinicius

Neymar was better on the ball. In everything else, not really
 
Feel as if Madrid could be looking to sell him in the summer because they need to make room for Mbappe. Wouldn't say Mbappe is necessarily better than Vini but they went all in on Mbappe while Vini has had his fair share of bad press. But as of now, I'd struggle to think of a club who would be willing and rich enough to buy him. Maybe PSG. Can't imagine he'd go to Saudi Arabia at this stage in his career.
 
Zehner said:
Feel as if Madrid could be looking to sell him in the summer because they need to make room for Mbappe. Wouldn't say Mbappe is necessarily better than Vini but they went all in on Mbappe while Vini has had his fair share of bad press. But as of now, I'd struggle to think of a club who would be willing and rich enough to buy him. Maybe PSG. Can't imagine he'd go to Saudi Arabia at this stage in his career.
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https://www.reuters.com/sports/socc...lion-euro-saudi-offer-sources-say-2024-08-12/

200mil a year in wages will change anyone's mind.

It's an open offer to vinicius. A 200-250mil transfer fee for Madrid would help Madrid as well. I believe the loan for the renovation of the stadium runs till 2050. Though it's not like they are short of money.
 
Hammondo said:
I think mbappe has physical attributes above vinicius but that's about it. Vinicius is above him overall imo, a very good player.
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More top speed and stronger. Vinicius looks to have better acceleration, agility and stamina, so in terms of football, I’d argue Vinicius is at least as good physically.
 
Rossa said:
More top speed and stronger. Vinicius looks to have better acceleration, agility and stamina, so in terms of football, I’d argue Vinicius is at least as good physically.
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Well even if mbappe had amazing stamina, I doubt he would press more.
 
Yes, it's true both have played at their best as LW/LF in a 4-3-3. But as Ancelotti has tried this season - to great success at times - both are perfectly capable CFs that could work in tandem.

There is no reason they couldn't have worked as a duo similar to Bebeto and Romario or Yorke and Cole. Anelka and Drogba also had a lot of similarities, as did Ibra and Cavani, Inzaghi and Shevchenko. Luca Toni and Miro Klose as well. Their skill sets overlap to some degree but they also have particular individual perks. The give and go from both is frightening.

I feel the problem is neither of Vini or Mbappe although I'm personally more fond of pairing big guy/little guy like say Forlan and Aguero. The issue is Casemiro, Kroos and Modric no longer playing as well as Carvajal aging. In theory I could imagine

--------- Vini - Mbappe --------- (mobile CFs)
------------ Rodrygo ------------ (number 10)
Camavinga --- Bellingham (box to box 8)
--------- Tchouameni --------- (number 6)
Mendy - Alaba - Rudiger - Carvajal (overlap)
--------------- Courtois -------------

But of course Camavinga and Tchouameni don't come close to Casemiro, Modric and Kroos yet. Bellingham wants to play 10. Rodrygo wants the respect of Vini and Mbappe. Carvajal is old. Alaba is injury prone.
 
Red Pumpkin said:
Yes, it's true both have played at their best as LW/LF in a 4-3-3. But as Ancelotti has tried this season - to great success at times - both are perfectly capable CFs that could work in tandem.

There is no reason they couldn't have worked as a duo similar to Bebeto and Romario or Yorke and Cole. Anelka and Drogba also had a lot of similarities, as did Ibra and Cavani, Inzaghi and Shevchenko. Luca Toni and Miro Klose as well. Their skill sets overlap to some degree but they also have particular individual perks. The give and go from both is frightening.

I feel the problem is neither of Vini or Mbappe although I'm personally more fond of pairing big guy/little guy like say Forlan and Aguero. The issue is Casemiro, Kroos and Modric no longer playing as well as Carvajal aging. In theory I could imagine

--------- Vini - Mbappe --------- (mobile CFs)
------------ Rodrygo ------------ (number 10)
Camavinga --- Bellingham (box to box 8)
--------- Tchouameni --------- (number 6)
Mendy - Alaba - Rudiger - Carvajal (overlap)
--------------- Courtois -------------

But of course Camavinga and Tchouameni don't come close to Casemiro, Modric and Kroos yet. Bellingham wants to play 10. Rodrygo wants the respect of Vini and Mbappe. Carvajal is old. Alaba is injury prone.
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If Alonso does come with his 3421 then maybe you can play Vini and Bellingham as the 10's. Still have the problem of Mbappe wanting to drift into the left wing/left half but they could work it out on the training ground?
 
dinostar77 said:
If Alonso does come with his 3421 then maybe you can play Vini and Bellingham as the 10's. Still have the problem of Mbappe wanting to drift into the left wing/left half but they could work it out on the training ground?
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Great players can make anything work. But I don't see Vini thriving in a position where it's jammed, 10 is the most jammed on the pitch. He prefers LW and can be a great CF because he makes runs into space, is GREAT technically and has the ability to play give and go, 1-2 football.

Bellingham isn't a natural 10, he is a PERFECT 8. Stamina, speed, overall technique, late runs into the box, tackling - he has it all. But of course Gullit and Gerrard did play well as 10s so he can do it too. Seedorf is another one with a similar profile (although better technically).

Because of the above I'd line them up in a 4-4-2 diamond. You could have a skewed line up where Vini or Mbappe is allowed to take turns playing at LW if the RB is good enough to act as a false RW with a more defensively sound LB tucking in making the defense a 3 man defense. Think Abidal and Dani Alves, Ashley Cole and Ivanovic or Chivu and Maicon.

In theory during game

---------- Mbappe --------- (CF change with LW)
Vini ---------- Rodrygo -------- TAA (LW, 10, RW)
Camavinga --- Bellingham (box to box 8)
--------- Tchouameni --------- (6 can drop to CB)
------ Militao - Rudiger - Asencio ---
--------------- Courtois -------------

That line up could seamlessly switch to 4 at the back by Tchouameni dropping to CB until TAA is back. They could also immediately get two banks of 4 with 4 midfielders by Rodrygo dropping to LM together with TAA taking up RM.

Great players like Rooney, Villa, Tevez or Etoo had no problems shifting between CF, LW/RW or even down to CM, LM/RM during different phases of the game. Mbappe and Vini are on their level so they can too, no issue.
 
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