Lewandowski wasn't always a pressing machine. He happened to get Klopp as manager when he was a 21 year old nobody from Poland and it has of course served him well. Mbappe could still learn to press, for example if Klopp becomes the manager it's the first amendment. Especially if Perez backs Klopp and says it's press or the bench.
Vinicius Junior
- Thread starter jackofalltrades
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In the latest edition of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood), Imran (@Annihilate Now!) & Jamie (@Vault Dweller) celebrate a fantastic victory as Manchester United won 2-0 in the Derby. They celebrate the changes Carrick has made, discuss our new coaching team and find time to play a Stupid Game. Enjoy!
We thought ETH woulf manage to do the same to some of our players… some seem to think they are too big for such menial jobs.
Main problem is it has to come from within the team, especially at the big clubs with the big egos. When Bayern lost UCL at home against Chelsea 2012 the players hardly slept that summer. They took it upon themselves to rectify it the next season by running and pressing more than ever - including Ribéry and Robben - and were rewarded with a sextuple (or something like that).
Kroos made snide remarks a few years ago about Hazard. His lazy attitude made him into a pariah in a Real Madrid team full of stars but players that also were ready to put in a shift.
The harsh truth is that if a manager requires the team to press and they refuse the owners usually fire the manager because it's easier to replace one manager than 25 players. So the conclusion is you need your 7-8 best players buying into the pressing system and those 7-8 need to force every newcomer and youngsters to follow suit.
It's of course a bit easier for a manager to implement pressing if backed by the board but it's still no guarantee. At United ten Hag was backed by the board but he didn't have his 7-8 best players backing him. It eventually led to falls outs with several big egos and eventually the board cut its losses even though they didn't fault him.
Yea but I think that speed often stands out the most.
Mbappe signing for Madrid was the worst thing that could've happened to his career
After his hubris and his stupid on field antics.
Why?
Alonso rotated last night like he said he would. Zidane rotated the squad and won alot of trophies doing so.
He's been way worse since Mbappe joined
So has Bellingham. Granted he'd only been there 1 season before that, but he was great that season and not as good last season
Is that a formation change issue or him throwing toys out of pram issue?
It looks like the whole of the football superstar world got inspired by Dembele pressing like a mad man in the PSG UCL run. Mbappe was leading the RM press so well yesterday. I think they are CL dark horses this time. The defence is weak but otherwise they look good.
Their midfield isn't good.
Since Mbappé settled into the team it's become crystal clear that he's levels better than Vini, which in turn has changed the perception of him at the club/fanbase. Vini's struggles began when he "lost" the Balon D'Or and well, now playing with Mbappé it's unlikely he'll have another chance unless he wins with Brazil
Valverde, Tchouameni and Bellingham? Backed by guys like Camavinga, Guler etc. It looks pretty good. Tchouameni looked very good in the DM role yesterday but don't watch la liga very closely.
His role changed. He was Real Madrid's best midfielder last season.
He became a B2B midfielder doing all the dirty work alongside Valverde under Ancelotti's last season. He wasn't going forward anywhere near as much.
What?
Belllingham, Valverde and Camavinga/Tchouemeni isn't good?! What would you consider good?
That's 2 of the top 5 midfielders in the world and Camavinga/Tchouemeni are both top 10.
And Vini was Madrid's best winger last season. Theyre both worse since Mbappe came in
2 of the top 5 in the world? Seriously? I wouldn't pick any of them over PSG's or Liverpool's midfielders, and then City has a few better. I have not even thought about barcelona or bayern.
Vini's problem wasn't the result of Mbappe coming in.
His problem is that he's a proper twat who throws a tantrum and downs tools for every little thing, his own teammates scream at him for being a dick and for sulking and not tracking back. In fact, his performances basically took a turn for the worse when right after he didn't win the Balon D'or.
Bellingham was always going to be put further back. His false 9 role was a stop gap until they had a striker that wasn't Brahim Diaz or Joselu. Whether it was Mbappe, Haaland or someone else, Bellingham's future was never at false 9.
I won't say levels, yet I agree. His tantrums after that Ballon de Or and susequent season didn't help him at all. There is some player if someone fishes him angry and leaves Madrid
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You wouldn't have Bellingham over Ruiz, Gravenberch, Szozbolai, Bernardo Silva, Pavlovich, Goretezka, Kimmich?!?!
Forget Bellingham, I'd have Valverde over most of those.
Honest question, do you actually watch Valverde or Bellingham on a week to week basis?
Like, Vitinha is up there. So is Rodri (pre injury). But that's about it. To think those listed above are on Bellingham/Valverde's level is insane to me.
Put it this way, without Bellingham/Valverde last season, Madrid would be about 5th in La Liga. You don't understand how unbalanced that team was. 3 Left Wingers in a front 3, only Rodrgyo tracked back. Valverde and Bellingham were doing the donkey's work for 2 extra players.
Barcelona's guys are on Valverde/Bellingham's level of effectiveness and ability when they're fit. Unfortunately, Gavi/Pedri between them is a combination of Louis Saha and Luke Shaw in terms of fitness, so it's kinda pointless.
Madrid's issues in the midfield isn't a question of talent, it's a question of profile, of style tendencies.
Xabi with time might solve it, if not having a clear CM, by playing an style that suits better his players.
Xabi with time might solve it, if not having a clear CM, by playing an style that suits better his players.
I have not watched them much this season, but last season they were lacking, and notably behind the top midfields. Alonso might be able to do great things, but I don't see how he would make them all top 10 midfielders, thats a big jump.
It's clearly levels tbh.
They were lacking at what, precisely?
Passing ability, dictating play, and at times technical ability. They have focused a lot on physicality and made sacrifices.
I think there are a few names there that are massively overrated, Bellingham is one of them. I don’t think he is a top 10 midfielder in the world at all. They don’t have anyone like Modric and Kroos in midfield and their attack isn’t as potent as they were at their peak, where any player could take you apart in second if you let them.
They don’t have the players to just turn up and win anymore. They need a cohesive, well drilled system and I think there are too many holes to be a real contender this year. Their defence looks extremely vulnerable in terms of personnel.
They don’t have the players to just turn up and win anymore. They need a cohesive, well drilled system and I think there are too many holes to be a real contender this year. Their defence looks extremely vulnerable in terms of personnel.
Right, so this isn't their midfield problem but their forwards problem.
In so many games Bellingham wasn't actually playing CM but playing LM, because of Vini/Mbappe's inability to track back. Valverde who would surge from the right, wasn't able to do so because again he was asked to hold position more often than not due to the confusion of the front 3. Then, injuries to CM's meant that Tchouemeni often ended up playing CB, but Camavinga in there in a flat midfield added no extra dimension so Ceballos was played instead.
Oh and injuries meant Fran Garcia ended up at LB which meant that Bellingham was basically reduced to a defensive midfielder covering the left side from a non-tracking back Vini and an attacking FB who was poor at defending. Not to mention for about 1/3rd of the Season Valverde never actually played in CM given ACL injuries to Carvajal.
Using last year to judge the Real Madrid midfield qualities is pointless, because half the time their first choice three CM's were playing Left Wing, Rightback and CB.
I agree. They are very good players, Bellingham and Valverde could easily be called world class even. But they are not the greatest fit, as they don’t complement esch other that well. Ideally, you would put someone like Rodri behind the two.
I don't understand where this "Bellingham is overrated" thing comes from.
A bunch of dreadful England games under Southgate where everyone was dreadful and a CL Semi vs Bayern where he was injured?
You must have seen Bellingham play quite a lot to judge he is overrated. What part of his game is overrated?
They compliment each other perfectly as both are great double pivots. It's that they rarely got to partner with each other as both were playing outside of CM for a lot of the season due to injuries/balance. The ideal scenario is a CDM who can pass from deep, but both the guys in the team last season who could do that were playing in CB/Full back due to injuries.
Like, how can anyone say Bellingham Valverde and Tchouemeni/Camavinga don't work as a midfield 3 when there's been about 4 games in total where the they actually played together in midfield last season
4 of the back 5 of Madrid's first choice defense last season got ACL injuries. Their best centerback torn his muscle and was out for 4 months.
Courtois - Alaba - Militao - Rudiger - Carvajal literally were out for ages.
You literally had lineups like
Fran Garcia - Tchouemeni - Ascencio - Valverde
There is levels between Mbappe and a Piojo Lopez, yet between Vini and Killian, it sounded like too much...yet it's just a word, I just read it like sthg 4 times the player and felt it like too much.
And I don't meaning it in a pure stats sense and athletism where Killian will always be a freak/phenom, but in terms of the talent and stuff the Brazilian gave to Madrid, levels sounded a tad extreme at this current moment.
At the same time I have no doubt that carreer wise Mbappe would be conssider levels ahead of Vini if he ends his adventure in Madrid in great fashion and continues to be at great level with the NT. Yet at the end of the day I find it in general that we talk too casually about this player it's three times better than other when in general, there aren't such gaps. BTW I preffer clearly Killian as a player since time, but I also give a lot of credit of how vital Vinicius was for Madrid and how he transformed from a little kiddo with excessive bad deciciosn in the pitch, even clouncy at times, to a big game player in all these late success from Madrid.
I just don’t think he is particularly special at anything, and you need to be to be in the very elite bracket.
He scored goals playing as almost a striker, but where does he really shine in midfield? Not his passing, and not really his work rate or positioning either. He is a very good ball carrier, but is it enough to be top 5 in the world? I don’t think so, not in midfield.
Vinicius is a shadow of himself and has very obviously been put out by the Mbappe signing. I don’t think the team has the right balance in midfield or in attack.
What?!
Not his work rate?! He was ranked 2nd at Madrid behind only Valverde and top 10 in La Liga. Can't remember the exact position.
His ball carrying and dribbling for a B2B midfielder is immense.
His passing isn't KBD/Scholes/Pirlo but for his role it doesn't need to be. Madrid don't play like that anyway.
His interception and tackling stats are incredible.
His assists and goal numbers are also fantastic.
I'm not sure what you want in a midfielder here? A combination of Scholes, Kante and Zidane for them to be the very elite?
Top 10 in La Liga isn’t Top 5 in the world, is it? And that’s a somewhat favorable metric according to you.
So his work rate isn’t top 5 in the league, nevermind the world, his passing might not be top 20. Are his goal and assist numbers that good from midfield? Playing in La Liga for Madrid? They certainly aren’t top 5 good.
So he isn’t top 5 by any metric as a midfielder. Just a very good player rather than one of the absolute great ones, for me. Both Kroos and Modric were elite at certain aspects of the game, and I don’t think Bellingham is.
Will stop there though as the thread is about Vinicius and I am derailing it.
I don't disagree with you. Vinicius' big credit is how he has developed as a player from basically a clown to ballon d'or level at his best
Vinicius was a "clown" as an 18-19 year old being expected to be a superstar for Real Madrid
He exploded at 21, which is a pretty normal trajectory
Mate, he's 22 years old. Modric at 22 was playing for Dinamo Zagreb and Kroos at 22 was on loan (on the bench) at Bayern Leverkusen.
You're asking for top 10 work rate for a CM in a league where the top work-rate players on the list (or any league) tend to be full backs/wing backs/wide midfielders.
This is like saying Ballack wasn't an amazing header of the ball because he didn't have as many header wins as top 10 of PL (who otherwise are all CB's).
Also @ bolded, I mean if you don't think they are then that's mental. His first season for G+A beats any of Griezmann's Barca seasons, would be Frank Lampard's 2nd best ever season, beat's any of Xavi/Iniesta/Modric/Zidane's seasons, beats any of KDB's seasons.
Matter of fact out of "midfielders" only Bruno has had a season in recent memory with higher output.
Sure, if its "La Liga" then why aren't more La Liga midfielders doing those numbers?
How on earth is 36 G+A in 41 games not "top 5 good".
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I think his goals and assists are pretty good, not fantastic.
https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...NoBKAB6BAgxEAA&ictx=1&biw=2560&bih=1305&dpr=1
For example last season 16 players scored more goals in the PL than he did in la liga and 10 players scored more in la liga.
His improvement isn't normal. That's a big discredit to him otherwise we'd see many kid touted to do great develop like him.