Was Carrick better than Busquets defensively?

Paul_Scholes18

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I think he was as good as Busquets. It is strange how little England has rated him with him barely playing much for the national side.
 

El Jefe

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Mascherano was better than Carrick? No way. There's overrating happening in this thread but you're underrating Carrick IMO.
I mean its very much a matter of preference as they played the DM position in completely different ways. In saying that I honestly believe Mascherano was better. Being a CB at Barca has made people forget how excellent he was at Liverpool.

Also worth remembering that so many top players have moved to Barca in the last 10 years and completely failed to adapt to a different playing style or position, Mascherano had no such problems and that speaks to how good he was.

His international career was far better than Carricks. He's been a stand out player in World Cups and Copa Americas without having the Barca system available to him.
 

adexkola

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There's some truth to that but it's not entirely true either.

It's that constant question - is Xavi Xavi becuase of Xavi or because of Messi/Iniesta/Pep/Barcelona/tiki taka? Or is it the other way round? You're correct that playing in that Barcelona team would help you get out of tight situations and retain the ball. But it's also questionable whether you'd actually get I to that Barcelona team and if you do - would you fit in seamlessly like an equally vital cog as all time great midfielders or look somewhat pale in comparison. I think Carrick would do well in that midfield but reach nowhere near the level Busquets did. The latter is possibly thought of, within the game as one of the great midfielders, more at the level of the Keane's and Scholes than Carrick's of this world.

I thought Carrick was a terrific footballer but there's a reason why he's a divisive topic - because he wasn't an elite CM despite a few comparing him to elite CMs.
I've already admitted that putting Busquets in our team would have raised the midfield performance up a notch, I do think he was the better player all things considering.
 

VeevaVee

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Nope. There's been quite a bit of revisionism about Carrick, as he was such a standout towards the end, but at our peak (or one of them), when we wanted to beat Barca, our midfield was the weak point. A fantastic player nonetheless.
 

RyRoc

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I' a big fan of Carrick but Busquets intercepting, positioning and reading of the game was on a higher level. Disagree with the notion that Busquets was so good because of Xavi and Iniesta - for me it was the other way around. I saw top teams stop pressing Barca because there was just no chance of Busquets losing the ball, getting caught in possession or making the wrong decision. His passing wasn't spectacular in terms of range but in terms of accuracy and playing the exact type of ball a receiver needed , it was spot on! Busquets is one of the best if not the best defensive midfielder to play the game IMO.
 

Jeppers7

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What a player Busquets was. Truly world class. Mascherano also was a different type of player but unbeatable at times a monster. Also world class.
 

Eckers99

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No chance. Busquets and Pirlo were on a different stratosphere. It's silly to compare Carrick, a very good footballer in his own right, to all time greats.

Alonso and Carrick were probably at a similar level.

As for this thread, I'd say they were at a similar level defensively. Maybe Carrick was even better. But Busquet's was so absurdly good at everything else theres not much to compare. For example Busquets was as press resistant as a CM gets. That in itself makes your team defensively stronger by a hell of a lot. Carrick was prone to being suffocated and didn't have that standout quality that the Barcelona man did.
All of this rings true.
 

Champ

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It's an unpopular opinion but Carrick was world class.
His positioning was top drawer and his passing was quality.
As good as Busquets? That's a big call. ..
 

Raees

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It's an unpopular opinion but Carrick was world class.
His positioning was top drawer and his passing was quality.
As good as Busquets? That's a big call. ..
I think to say Carrick is as good as him as an overall player is madness..


But if we focus just purely on the defensive side of the game, I think it is a worthwhile discussion, though Busquets might still > in that respect too.
 

berbatrick

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While we're here, someone link a good Carrick video from YouTube. Preferably one with the tags #despacito #respect #skillz
there was a 18 minute one on the 12/13 season which was good - excellent forward passing mostly, and some skillsz too. the instagram video of the op is from another old video which had his defensive stuff from the chelsea and schalke games in 2011. and a shorter one from lvg's first season. i think all were taken down for copyright.
 

Revan

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there was a 18 minute one on the 12/13 season which was good - excellent forward passing mostly, and some skillsz too. the instagram video of the op is from another old video which had his defensive stuff from the chelsea and schalke games in 2011. and a shorter one from lvg's first season. i think all were taken down for copyright.
Carrick was a great, borderline world-class player (though maybe sucked for a season and a half around 2010). Busquests was an all-time great, one of the best to have played in that position. The list of midfielders (all positions) that were better than him in the last 20years includes Xavi, Pirlo, Zidane, Scholes and Iniesta. And probably that's it.
 

izec

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I don't think he was. At best he was on a similar level defensively, but i highly doubt he was better.
 

NoPace

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Carrick was a great, borderline world-class player (though maybe sucked for a season and a half around 2010). Busquests was an all-time great, one of the best to have played in that position. The list of midfielders (all positions) that were better than him in the last 20years includes Xavi, Pirlo, Zidane, Scholes and Iniesta. And probably that's it.
Modric in that list instead of Scholes, for me. Otherwise agree totally.
 

Ace

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I think Busquets is among the absolute best in the game to ever have played his poisiton. Carrick was a great servant for the club and had a stellar few years, but unfair to Busquets to compare the two.
 

Brightonian

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I know we're meant to be comparing him defensively to Busquets, but just watching that Carrick video reminded me of the time when in Scholes, Carrick and Rooney we had three of the very best long passers in the game in the same team. It was ridiculous. Other top sides had one player who could pull off those effortless diagonal passes - Xavi at Barca, Pirlo at Juve etc - and we somehow had three. It stood out because it was out of proportion to the other qualities of the team, which were starting to decline quite badly.

I guess Pogba is as good a long-range passer as anyone in the game, up there at that same elite level. So we still have the requisite one. But I'm not sure anyone else in the current United squad is anywhere near that level at that particular skill.
 

Infordin

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The one problem I have with rating Carrick on the same level as Busquets and Alonso is his international career.

Busquets and Alonso were both starters and key players that helped Spain win 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012. Alonso delivered an MOTM performance against France in the 2012 quarter final, so they weren’t merely passengers riding on the coattails of Xavi and Iniesta.

Carrick’s impact for England was almost nonexistent. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Carrick didn’t play at either World Cup 2010 or Euro 2012. Those two tournaments were in his prime.
 

adexkola

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The one problem I have with rating Carrick on the same level as Busquets and Alonso is his international career.

Busquets and Alonso were both starters and key players that helped Spain win 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012. Alonso delivered an MOTM performance against France in the 2012 quarter final, so they weren’t merely passengers riding on the coattails of Xavi and Iniesta.

Carrick’s impact for England was almost nonexistent. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Carrick didn’t play at either World Cup 2010 or Euro 2012. Those two tournaments were in his prime.
Wasn't his fault for the most part. If your managers can't see beyond Gerrard and Lampard in midfield then you have to hold your hands up
 

Cascarino

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Carrick’s impact for England was almost nonexistent. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Carrick didn’t play at either World Cup 2010 or Euro 2012. Those two tournaments were in his prime.
I think it’s too reductive to say that because he didn’t appear at those tournaments it means anything in his comparative ability to two players who did appear in those tournaments. If memory serves Milner and Barry got appearances at those tournaments yet neither of them are as good as Carrick (though both are good players). A less than stellar number of international appearances can often be down a variety of factors.

Having said I do think that Busquets is the better player, which is no slight on Carrick as I think Busquets Is pretty perfect
 

Righteous Steps

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The one problem I have with rating Carrick on the same level as Busquets and Alonso is his international career.

Busquets and Alonso were both starters and key players that helped Spain win 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012. Alonso delivered an MOTM performance against France in the 2012 quarter final, so they weren’t merely passengers riding on the coattails of Xavi and Iniesta.

Carrick’s impact for England was almost nonexistent. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Carrick didn’t play at either World Cup 2010 or Euro 2012. Those two tournaments were in his prime.
You can’t use international career because. Carrick should have got more games than he did and better players like Scholes and Lampard never had international careers that matched their club performances for whatever reason.

What you can use is their club appearances, Alonso was basically Carrick with better tactical awareness, and better technical ability, everything Carrick excelled in Alonso simply done better.

Busquets was a unique player and arguably the best DM of his generation, his close control touch all round ability was on a different level to Carricks, the only part of his game were Carrick was better was in his long passing.

After these two and Pirlo you can mentioned Carrick, but those three were the best deep lying playmakers of their generation .
 

caid

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Nah he was a level below him as a player. Even if he wasn't Busquets was bloody cynical and his teams tended to get a pretty significant advantage from it. Busquets is as close to the perfect dm as you can get really. Carrick was just a very good player.
 

Jeppers7

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Lampard
Gerrard
Yaya Toure
Fabregas
Nedved
Kaka
Schneider
Viera
Zidane
Scholes
Giggs
Keane
Xavi
Iniesta
Petit
Makelelee
Beckham
Ronaldinho
Pirlo
Veron
Riquelme
Davids
Seedorf
Modric
David Silva
Redondo
Cambiasso
zola
Ballack
Essien
Busquests

off the top of my head, although I’ll have missed some world class players off that loss from around 99-2013

Carrick was of a similar level to Gareth Barry, Jordan Henderson.
 

criticalanalysis

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Am I wrong in thinking Busquets and the general midfield play of Barca was much more down to earth during 2015 (yes the year they won the treble) and under Enrique's tenure?

I think that gives a good indication of his level as he was mostly in a two man midfield, getting overrun and exposed with Rakitic playing a blinder next to him.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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It’s just an example. Managers are interviewed multiple times on a weekly basis. They are often complementary about opposition managers and players.

If you could go back in time and offer Guardiola the swap, there is no way he would take it. He was simply admiring a player as he has done many other times.

It’s like when people post the quotes about so and so saying such and such is the best player in the world. It is a soundbyte and doesn’t really mean anything.
Pep could just said Carrick is a great player without mentioning Alonso & Busquets name and yet he mentioned the name. He could have just said "Redmond is on the same level as Sterling" , but he didn't. If manager only said "Carrick is a great player", yes it doesn't really mean anything but compliment.

At the end of the day when manager start comparing player to others and calling them on the same level, there is meaning into it.
 

Infordin

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Pep himself said that Carrick would get in his Barcelona team. I’d imagine he’d take Busquets place.
Pep says a lot of things, like how Foden is the most talented player he’s ever coached. Bravo’s performance at Old Trafford is the best he’s ever seen from a goalie, and so on.
 

ghagua

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No, not even close. Carrick was good when the going was good, but disappeared when it mattered. Watch the 2 games against Barca in the 2 finals and you will see he struggled.
 

GifLord

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Didn't Carrick go to complete shit after the 2009 final? Took him like 2 seasons to regain his old form.
 

berbatrick

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I think Busquets was equal or better defensively, far better in terms of keeping the ball and short passing, but slightly worse on long passing, through balls, direct pass to a striker through the opposition midfield.
 

berbatrick

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Didn't Carrick go to complete shit after the 2009 final? Took him like 2 seasons to regain his old form.
he wasnt great next season, included his worst performance (vs bayern at home) but he was very good in the next one in 2010/11, held the midfield together as the only consistent defensive option and was excellent in the CL run to the final. the highlights in the op are from the QF against chelsea, he also dominated the SF against schalke.
he faded a bit again next season when cleverley, anderson, fetcher were preferred at the start, but the one after that was his best especially in terms of forward passing.
 

berbatrick

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No, not even close. Carrick was good when the going was good, but disappeared when it mattered. Watch the 2 games against Barca in the 2 finals and you will see he struggled.
partnered with giggs in a 2-man midfield against xavi, iniesta, and busquets, they got destroyed, and in the 2nd half the tactical switch was??? switching giggs wide and having a carrick-park central midfield.
he had zero help against the best midfield of all time and was one of the less bad performers in both finals. there used to be a touch compliation of his from the 09 final and he personally wasnt as bad as people think.

also he was key to getting to the final, i think the QF and SF are also considered games which "mattered".
 

berbatrick

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Lampard
Gerrard
Yaya Toure
Fabregas
Nedved
Kaka
Schneider
Viera
Zidane
Scholes
Giggs
Keane
Xavi
Iniesta
Petit
Makelelee
Beckham
Ronaldinho
Pirlo
Veron
Riquelme
Davids
Seedorf
Modric
David Silva
Redondo
Cambiasso
zola
Ballack
Essien
Busquests

off the top of my head, although I’ll have missed some world class players off that loss from around 99-2013

Carrick was of a similar level to Gareth Barry, Jordan Henderson.
messi
ronaldo
vidic
henry
rio
terry
zaki
deeney
blind


has as much relevance to this as your list.
 

SambaBoy

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For me, he had too many big lows at United to truly be considered in the same bracket as the likes of Pirlo, Scholes, Xavi, Busquets etc. When Bayern knocked us out at OT in the CL, it was one of the most gutless performances I have seen by a United player. Fergie used to say he was a slow starter which was fair enough but I'm sure there was seasons where he wouldn't be a regular in the team till November.

When he was in good form, he was absolutely brilliant and was a big reason for our success at the start of the decade. I'm sure there was a stat towards the end of his time where we really struggled to win games unless he was starting due to our inability to keep the ball without him in the side. Some of his passes were terrific and underappreciated as they weren't 50 yard defence splitting passes but for me, he was the best player I have seen playing between the lines, he used to drill into into the half spaces for the other player to turn, really underrated quality.
 

cyril C

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No, never. I still remember a few years ago fans had criticised Carrick for his lack of hard tackle. Carrick relied on positioning to do his defensive duties, which under some circumstances was inadequate. Better than Scholes and Giggs of course but no where near a DMF standard. Carrick was good enough for the team 80% of the time, but somehow short when we really need to break up Barca's eternity passing game for example.
 

Bondi77

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He was class for us and maybe we benefited from him being overlooked so often on the international stage.
I am more interested in how he performs in his coaching role and will he be able to bring out the best in the young talented midfielders we have at the club at the moment.
 

ghagua

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Right, that's me writing off the entire team that featured in the 2 finals then.
Whos is talking about the entire team? This is a comparison between 2 players, not the entire team. When it mattered most, the player we are talking about disappeared without a trace. Big players show up no matter how bad the team is struggling. Carrick misplaced passes all throughout the game.
 

berbatrick

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Whos is talking about the entire team? This is a comparison between 2 players, not the entire team. When it mattered most, the player we are talking about disappeared without a trace. Big players show up no matter how bad the team is struggling. Carrick misplaced passes all throughout the game.

sideways, backwards 5 yards, only 2 tackles all game, no interceptions. what a coward.
 

adexkola

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Whos is talking about the entire team? This is a comparison between 2 players, not the entire team. When it mattered most, the player we are talking about disappeared without a trace. Big players show up no matter how bad the team is struggling. Carrick misplaced passes all throughout the game.
It's a stupid point, there are so many flaws in it I can't be arsed pointing them out