Wayne Rooney's legacy

AjaxCunian

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Oh I agree with that, Messi isn’t the player he was either and Neymar for me underwhelms. But is seriously talented.
Think Neymar really underwhelmed last season and Messi isn't the player he was but he's still more than any else Ive seen, up until this day. Creating, scoring, dribbling like that in such different ways, but that might be personal.
 

Varun1

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Rooney was a different player, I’d say that. He lacked that clinical edge to be a world class goal scorer year after year and he lacked that top level genius, of a Cantona for example, as a playmaker but was very good at both aspects. For sure he could play long diagonals, Valencia will testify to that. Ronaldo was better in the air and a far better goal scorer. Ronaldo’s first touch and technique were on another level to Rooneys which meant his weight of pass, short and through the lines was better than Rooneys. You surely can’t tell me Rooney was a better athlete than Ronaldo? As for pressing and defending I always felt Rooney was a better player when he stopped charging around the pitch letting his emotions take over. Once SAF got a grip on that he became more effective. He gets praised to the hilt for letting emotion take over, but he was far better once that had left his game. But the long and short of it is that he was nothing like Messi or Neymar. They are better players than he was, whether you want to argue he was more rounded or not he wasn’t as good at football as that level of player.
Maybe my memory is failing me, I can't remember this aspect ever going away. I always felt he would have been a better striker if he wasn't always dropping so deep.
Maybe that was partly due to the lack of balls from our midfield.
 

Bebestation

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I think most people outside of an United forum wouldn't say so. Lewandowski's output for such a long period of time just speaks for itself and got him much closer to the best of the world talk.

However, put Rooney as a striker in such a functioning team behind him for years and I think he wouldn't be far off at all.
@TsuWave
I mean isn't this why alot of people value messi more than C Ronaldo though? One looks like able to do more with a football (Rooney looks better and more versatile on a football than me to Lewandowski who is a pure predatory striker) - whilst they have also achieved the similar in career with regards to trophies.
 

Jeppers7

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Well there's a difference between being a Rooney and being a Berbatov though. That's were most forwards fall into. I don't think that anyone could accuse the likes of Roberto Baggio, Gianfranco Zola and Thierry Henry to be lazy even though they didn't shared Rooney's workrate.

Workrate is indeed important in certain positions. Italy for example would have never won the WC without Gattuso. However do you need every single player to run as much as a McT does? Should a striker like Rooney focus on other skills instead?

In the past England had a reputation of a very determined but poorly talented pool of players. That became an unjust criticism decades ago (specifically since the golden generation burst into scene). I am no England talent fan but I'd say that talent wise this England's side is at par if not better to all other top teams during the Euro. However the mentality is still flawed. English players need to learn that they shouldn't run when the ball can the work for you. It needs to stop acting like a pick up truck and start acting like a Bentley. It has all the prestige and the talent to do so.
Good points
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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You made it sound as if Rooney chose to sacrifice personal glory over team effort. I believe he had no choice on that whatsoever.
That's what you believe but in reality he did choose team's achievement over personal glory. He said it himself that many times he prefers team than his own individual achievement, preference means his own choice. He said he knocked Sir Alex door to say that he didn't like 09/10 season when he played as a lone striker despite of scoring tons of goals and people always noted that as his peak season but in reality he chose not to go the path to become the best player because he prefers to involve more in the game for the sake of the team, that's his choice. He said himself he prefers to be team player if it means for the team's success, again it is his choice.
 

Jeppers7

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Maybe my memory is failing me, I can't remember this aspect ever going away. I always felt he would have been a better striker if he wasn't always dropping so deep.
Maybe that was partly due to the lack of balls from our midfield.
The season after Ronaldo left I felt Rooney focussed his energies more on being in the right place and less on charging around the field.
 

anant

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On the other hand would Rooney be a better player if he focused more on developing his technique, his finishing, his passing range and his football brain rather then dedicate so much time on work rate? The answer to that is probably yes. I remember when we bought Ronaldo and Rooney. The former was NOT the most rated of the two. Look at them towards the end of their career. Ronaldo is the best player in the Serie A and is still one of the top 5 players in the world while Rooney is managing Derby County.

There's too much emphasis in the EPL on work rate. That's great when the player in question is Phil Neville, Nicky Butt, Scott McTominay or Robbie Savage. Its not that great with a striker with the pristine talent of Wayne Rooney.
On an average, teams run somewhere between 105-120kms per game, which roughly comes out to around 10-12 kms on an average for a player (ignoring GKs). You rarely ever see a player cover 14kms or so on a consistent basis, which effectively means that effort of 1 player not tracking back and being given a free role can be afforded (which is what you see in every side), however, do that for 3 odd players and you then need a lot more workhorses.

If you have 2 or more players who think this way, the team will struggle quite a bit, especially in PL where fitness is crucial. Hell, in all sides where Ronaldo has been, the other players did help out quite a bit in defence including Benzema at RM
 

Jeppers7

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That's what you believe but in reality he did choose team's achievement over personal glory. He said it himself that many times he prefers team than his own individual achievement, preference means his own choice. He said he knocked Sir Alex door to say that he didn't like 09/10 season when he played as a lone striker despite of scoring tons of goals and people always noted that as his peak season but in reality he chose not to go the path to become the best player because he prefers to involve more in the game for the sake of the team, that's his choice. He said himself he prefers to be team player if it means for the team's success, again it is his choice.
I think there’s far more to it than that. Rooney was in many ways a confidence player. He regularly went on long patches without scoring and his touch was often poor. He made up for that, in his mind, by putting in the effort, but i actually doubt he had the mentality of a Ronaldo or Messi etc and as such he was part of the reason teams were successful as opposed to being the biggest part.

The notion that Rooney was so unselfish that he sacrificed certain personal acclaim for the sake of the greater good is nonsense. He regularly got himself sent off for petulance or came close to getting sent off. So the notion he did everything for the team rather than a sense of self serving…rubbish.


also, @Jeppers7 is in this thread speaking nothing but facts.
Thank you
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I think there’s far more to it than that. Rooney was in many ways a confidence player. He regularly went on long patches without scoring and his touch was often poor. He made up for that, in his mind, by putting in the effort, but i actually doubt he had the mentality of a Ronaldo or Messi etc and as such he was part of the reason teams were successful as opposed to being the biggest part.

The notion that Rooney was so unselfish that he sacrificed certain personal acclaim for the sake of the greater good is nonsense. He regularly got himself sent off for petulance or came close to getting sent off. So the notion he did everything for the team rather than a sense of self serving…rubbish.



Thank you
Neuer and Ribery made it to top 3 Ballon d'or during the Ronaldo and Messi prime era. Are you telling me Rooney doesn't have the same mentality as Neuer and Ribery?

Rooney only had 3 red card in his EPL career so to say he regularly got himself send off is nonsense. The fact is really out there in 09/10 and what happened after 09/10. People noted 09/10 was his peak because he scores lot of goals. Forward tends to be recognised or appreciated more by goals. But after 09/10, he knocked Sir Alex door that he didn't like the role he was given in 09/10, he doesn't care about being recognised with his goals because it only leads him to win individual achievement not team's achievement, he wants to be team player.
 

devilish

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That's what you believe but in reality he did choose team's achievement over personal glory. He said it himself that many times he prefers team than his own individual achievement, preference means his own choice. He said he knocked Sir Alex door to say that he didn't like 09/10 season when he played as a lone striker despite of scoring tons of goals and people always noted that as his peak season but in reality he chose not to go the path to become the best player because he prefers to involve more in the game for the sake of the team, that's his choice. He said himself he prefers to be team player if it means for the team's success, again it is his choice.
I believe that Rooney played that way because that's the only football he knew how to play. In fact he stuck to that style even when it was wiser for him and more beneficial to the squad to take a step back and allow the ball to do the work for him. Very few players can reinvent themselves like Scholes did. Take Rio Ferdinand as an example. He was the complete CB, a player who had the right mix of technique, pace and defensive prowess. Yet he simply couldn't adapt losing that yard of pace.
Roberto Baggio was the finest no 10 the world had ever seen but he only played a certain style. If he was ordered to release the ball quicker then he'll go bonkers which is why he ended up playing with frigging Brescia instead of a top side.
It happens even to some of the best players.
 

devilish

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On an average, teams run somewhere between 105-120kms per game, which roughly comes out to around 10-12 kms on an average for a player (ignoring GKs). You rarely ever see a player cover 14kms or so on a consistent basis, which effectively means that effort of 1 player not tracking back and being given a free role can be afforded (which is what you see in every side), however, do that for 3 odd players and you then need a lot more workhorses.

If you have 2 or more players who think this way, the team will struggle quite a bit, especially in PL where fitness is crucial. Hell, in all sides where Ronaldo has been, the other players did help out quite a bit in defence including Benzema at RM
As I said there's a huge gap in terms of workrate between a Ronaldo/Berbatov and a Rooney/Tevez. Most players sit somehow in the middle.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I believe that Rooney played that way because that's the only football he knew how to play. In fact he stuck to that style even when it was wiser for him and more beneficial to the squad to take a step back and allow the ball to do the work for him. Very few players can reinvent themselves like Scholes did. Take Rio Ferdinand as an example. He was the complete CB, a player who had the right mix of technique, pace and defensive prowess. Yet he simply couldn't adapt losing that yard of pace.
Roberto Baggio was the finest no 10 the world had ever seen but he only played a certain style. If he was ordered to release the ball quicker then he'll go bonkers which is why he ended up playing with frigging Brescia instead of a top side.
It happens even to some of the best players.
Well, that's wrong. Because he showed in 09/10 that he could play the different way.
 

anant

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As I said there's a huge gap in terms of workrate between a Ronaldo/Berbatov and a Rooney/Tevez. Most players sit somehow in the middle.
But you need a Rooney if you want to play a Ronaldo or Berbatov.

I mean Rooney almost always spent his career playing with an attacker who wasn't known for high defensive Workrate - RVN then Ronaldo then Berbatov. And hence Rooney's workrate was crucial for us
 

Jeppers7

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Neuer and Ribery made it to top 3 Ballon d'or during the Ronaldo and Messi prime era. Are you telling me Rooney doesn't have the same mentality as Neuer and Ribery?

Rooney only had 3 red card in his EPL career so to say he regularly got himself send off is nonsense. The fact is really out there in 09/10 and what happened after 09/10. People noted 09/10 was his peak because he scores lot of goals. Forward tends to be recognised or appreciated more by goals. But after 09/10, he knocked Sir Alex door that he didn't like the role he was given in 09/10, he doesn't care about being recognised with his goals because it only leads him to win individual achievement not team's achievement, he wants to be team player.
what about cup games etc? There were countless times Rooney pushed the boundaries with discipline and it certainly wasn’t for anything other than selfish reasons. Honestly if you think Wayne Rooney
who pushed for a move to City and threw all his teammates under the bus was only interested in the team then ok.

Ribery I never saw much of but I’d argue Neur has been a better gk than Rooney was a footballer. He almost reinvented the position.
 

Tom Van Persie

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I love Rooney but don't kid yourselves. He wanted a new contract and he used our transfer dealings post Ronaldo and flirted with City to pressure the club. Once we tabled an improved offer he signed.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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what about cup games etc? There were countless times Rooney pushed the boundaries with discipline and it certainly wasn’t for anything other than selfish reasons. Honestly if you think Wayne Rooney
who pushed for a move to City and threw all his teammates under the bus was only interested in the team then ok.

Ribery I never saw much of but I’d argue Neur has been a better gk than Rooney was a footballer. He almost reinvented the position.
His only red cards were in league games. 3 red and zero in cup of his United career, so to say he regularly got himself send off is nonsense. Him pushing a move to somewhere has no relevance to what happened on the pitch and what he could do. What happened on the pitch is Rooney picks team's achievement over individual achievement.

But the point is Rooney would have been more appreciated as a forward like Neuer as gk if he choose to play the way like he was in 09/10 season. That was the season he played differently and focussed on scoring goals. Producing the end product is how forward being appreciated the most.
 

Jeppers7

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His only red cards were in league games. 3 red and zero in cup of his United career, so to say he regularly got himself send off is nonsense. Him pushing a move to somewhere has no relevance to what happened on the pitch and what he could do. What happened on the pitch is Rooney picks team's achievement over individual achievement. Money is neither team and individual achievement, it's his off pitch issue.

But the point is Rooney would have been more appreciated as a forward like Neuer as gk if he choose to play the way like he was in 09/10 season. That was the season he played differently and focussed on scoring goals. Producing the end product is how forward being appreciated the most.
Yes only three times he chased after refs and swore abuse in their faces or hacked down opponents in frustration.

I’m sorry but I’ll agree to disagree. Everything is a sliding scale but no way Rooney sacrificed certain personal glory for the good of the team. As if a better version of Rooney wouldn’t benefit the team in any case. You seem totally enamoured with him so I’m not going to change your mind. It’s nonsense though.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Yes only three times he chased after refs and swore abuse in their faces or hacked down opponents in frustration.
Why can't you just admit that what you said about Rooney regularly got himself send off is wrong?

I’m sorry but I’ll agree to disagree. Everything is a sliding scale but no way Rooney sacrificed certain personal glory for the good of the team. As if a better version of Rooney wouldn’t benefit the team in any case. You seem totally enamoured with him so I’m not going to change your mind. It’s nonsense though.
Rooney played in different role in 09/10. If he plays the way like the 09/10 in his other seasons people would appreciate him more because he would be a more regular 20 plus or 25 plus league goals, he has shown the talent what he could do if he plays as the main no 9. Rooney said it himself in Rio's video, he knocked the manager's door after 09/10 season and told the manager he prefers to play in more support role behind the striker.
 

Maticmaker

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For me Rooney was always the guy who just loved playing football, preferably as a striker, but if (in his opinion) the midfield needed a hand he'd go and drop in there; also in his latter days I can remember him making not only last ditch tackles but on one or two occasions goal-line clearances as well!

Rooney was never blessed with an athletic physique as such, he was a naturally 'chunky individual who for years was a boy in a mans body, and his natural his enthusiasm was pervasive. Even in the pre-match kick about/one touch passing, he was the one who got upset when one of his team gave the ball away. The fact that Wayne played top class football from the age of sixteen was a testament to his love of the game. As someone who just looking at a custard pie would seem to just put on pounds, it must have been very difficult to stick to the diet that he would need to make the weight, and obviously once or twice he 'fell off the wagon'.

I have over my lifetime had the pleasure of watching some really great players grace the pitch at OT. however very few players even those with perhaps more all round skill than Rooney could match his sheer enthusiasm for the game and his will to win. The fact he is the top scorer for Club and Country is for me testament to that.
 

horsechoker

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Never mind been informed it might be from 2019/2020 but still.
Some saying it's 3/4 years old. I don't think it's recent.

Rooney unfortunately played in the smartphone/social media era. The likes of Gazza, Tony Adams, Dwight Yorke used to get into some proper shenanigans but nobody carried video cameras with them in those times.
 

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A lot of comments in here about whether Rooney would have achieved more individually if he had been more selfish. I think they are missing the point because that's what made Rooney great was that he was a team player. Can you imagine Ronaldo, Messi or Neymar being willing to play out wide on the left so that the team can progress to a CL final? No chance. That's part of his legacy, proper team player. I'm questioning whether some of the people in this thread even watched United on a regular basis or not. Seems some of them have some sort of axe to grind, probably opposition fans with fake accounts.
 

Jeppers7

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A lot of comments in here about whether Rooney would have achieved more individually if he had been more selfish. I think they are missing the point because that's what made Rooney great was that he was a team player. Can you imagine Ronaldo, Messi or Neymar being willing to play out wide on the left so that the team can progress to a CL final? No chance. That's part of his legacy, proper team player. I'm questioning whether some of the people in this thread even watched United on a regular basis or not. Seems some of them have some sort of axe to grind, probably opposition fans with fake accounts.
Yes I agree. Rooney wasn’t as talented as the other players you mentioned and made sacrifices as such. I think all those players you mentioned have played wide left, but the point on sacrificing those players. The question really would be can you imagine a manager ever sacrificing one of those players when trying to progress to a CL final ? No chance.
 

Pexbo

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Rooney was better than Ronaldo, more naturally talented. He was a more complete player, and it's for that reason that Ferguson was able to play him in more tactical positions. Ronaldo wouldn't be capable of playing how Rooney could, Rooney could play where Ronaldo could, his goals tally in the season after Ronaldo left proves that.

Of course Ronaldo has gone on and did what he did, but those first 3 or 4 years at United he was half the player Rooney was.
Neither could do what the other did to the same level. 10/10 managers would pick Ronaldo to do what he did over Rooney though.
 

Green_Red

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Neither could do what the other did to the same level. 10/10 managers would pick Ronaldo to do what he did over Rooney though.
Totally agree with that. In hindsight he has definitely eclipsed him, but he has most footballers that have ever lived.

From a United perspective Rooney is a bigger legend for us than Ronaldo. Club all time goalscorer, club captain, played for the club 393 times.
 

Giant Midget

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Yes I agree. Rooney wasn’t as talented as the other players you mentioned and made sacrifices as such. I think all those players you mentioned have played wide left, but the point on sacrificing those players. The question really would be can you imagine a manager ever sacrificing one of those players when trying to progress to a CL final ? No chance.
Messi and Ronaldo are that good that a manager would have to be batshit insane to sacrifice their output.

That’s the point - the team needed one attacker player to sacrifice himself and Rooney was chose precisely because Ronaldo can have a greater contribution to the team individually than Rooney.