No he wasn't. Not even close.
Wayne Rooney's legacy
- Thread starter El Jefe
- Start date
A tarnished legacy for me.
We start with the obvious that on his day he was a truly top footballer. There were times when he scored at will and did so in spectacular, ferocious fashion. Club record in goals scored and he has more than a few medals to his name.
But he held the club hostage not once but twice. Early in his career he was reckless with his petulance and late in his career he was rather poor, arguably for 3 maybe even 4 seasons. 3 poor seasons will tarnish a legacy, but add his hostage-taking and his petulance and suddenly what a brilliant career looks more like a checkered career.
How much better could Rooney have been had he kept some composure, even though that ferocity was part of what drove him to be the brilliant player that he was? I'd say a lot.
So perhaps the question isn't how great he Wayne Rooney. He was great. The better question is how much better could he have been had he looked after himself, mentally and physically, the way Ronaldo did? For me, had he done so he'd be in the same conversation as Pele and Maradona, if not Messi.
A shame.
We start with the obvious that on his day he was a truly top footballer. There were times when he scored at will and did so in spectacular, ferocious fashion. Club record in goals scored and he has more than a few medals to his name.
But he held the club hostage not once but twice. Early in his career he was reckless with his petulance and late in his career he was rather poor, arguably for 3 maybe even 4 seasons. 3 poor seasons will tarnish a legacy, but add his hostage-taking and his petulance and suddenly what a brilliant career looks more like a checkered career.
How much better could Rooney have been had he kept some composure, even though that ferocity was part of what drove him to be the brilliant player that he was? I'd say a lot.
So perhaps the question isn't how great he Wayne Rooney. He was great. The better question is how much better could he have been had he looked after himself, mentally and physically, the way Ronaldo did? For me, had he done so he'd be in the same conversation as Pele and Maradona, if not Messi.
A shame.
Best United scorer in history. Best England scorer in history. Sacrificed personal glory for a team many times and played on the wing despite he is a striker, always played with passion, won everything in United shirt.
Legend! And in top 5 legends of this club.
He wanted to leave in City? I don't know anything about that. Anything. Never happened that
Legend! And in top 5 legends of this club.
He wanted to leave in City? I don't know anything about that. Anything. Never happened that
Bullshit
Show me how he wasn't
He’s one of the greats.
He's a club legend (head and shoulders above Ronaldo who I wouldn't call a United legend)
A club legend.
He was a mainstay during our most successful period in our history.
He was a mainstay during our most successful period in our history.
OP's entire argument should be invalidated, because he mentions Rooney never winning the PFA award.
He did in 2009-2010. He carried our entire attack that season and if he didn't get injured vs Bayern, we probably win the league.
We dropped points at Blackburn crucially(no Rooney and Berba led the line) whilst missing loads of chances. If we had Rooney that game, we win it. Boom title #19.
He did in 2009-2010. He carried our entire attack that season and if he didn't get injured vs Bayern, we probably win the league.
We dropped points at Blackburn crucially(no Rooney and Berba led the line) whilst missing loads of chances. If we had Rooney that game, we win it. Boom title #19.
Thats a particularly interesting choice of example when arguing his greatness as another set of dropped points against Blackburn in 2012 when Rooney was dropped and fined for turning up to training still drunk with a steaming hangover over the festive period highlights exactly the reason his career fell off a cliff and the sense of entitlement that never left him when his first touch and fitness definitely had still craws in the throat for a lot of fans.
Probably stayed longer than he should have, but he was so important for long time. After Ronaldo left he pretty much made the team tick from that No.10 position. We relied on him so much that you'd wonder where the goals would come from when he was injured.
I stand corrected. Drogba was actually better that season but with Rooney being the English golden boy and having an outstanding season too he was always going to win it.
The feck are you talking about?
I don't agree with this. Rooney was one of the best players in the world for about 10 years and played in multiple roles where he was often backing up someone else (e.g. Ronaldo, RVP). Kane has played pretty much exclusively as a pure number 9 and has been poor for a while. Rooney was also better as an all-round player than Kane imo (e.g. his passing).
PFA player of the year is arbitrary and winning the golden boot doesn't mean you're more effective. Darren Bent was third goalscorer behind Drogba and Rooney for a couple of seasons but that didn't mean he was one of the most effective players or even forwards.
He may not have ever won the golden boot but he wasn't just a goalscorer, he also only became a pen-taker late into his career.
There's a reason why he's the only player in Premier league history to have 250+ goals and 100+ assists. Kane for comparisons sake despite all his goals has 19 assists. Efficiency can be categorised into much more than just goalscoring and Rooney damn sure was much more than just a goalscorer.
Who is Kane even competing against in the PFA team of the year? Rooney was competing against Ruud, Drogba, Henry, Shearer, Tevez, Berbatov, Ronaldo, Anelka, Adebayor, Van Persie and Torres in his prime years as a striker despite not being the main striker for most periods.
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PFA teams of the year for the most part are 80-90% correct, there are usually 2 contentious entries at most while the rest of the team picks itself. The best players in the season will almost certainly get picked.
Regarding the golden boot, it usually does mean you're more effective. Look back on the golden boot winners from the last 20 years and almost all were the most effective strikers that year.
Kane has also had fierce competition in Aguero, Salah, Costa, Sanchez, Vardy, Aubameyang. In Rooney's peak years, Ruud, Henry and Shearer were long gone.
Btw Rooney was a far better player than Kane I'm not arguing otherwise for a second. Kane however played at his peak for 4 straight seasons and was consistently devastating, Rooney never gave us back to back seasons of his best. He'd have one good season followed by a decent one.
Stop using Ronaldo and Messi stats to define greatness.
In that vain Robben, Rooney, Eto'o, and Drogba are just above average. These were incredible players.
Playing for Barca and Real have definitely boosted Ronaldo's and messi's stats. Both dont score at the same rate for country as well as previous and post clubs in ronaldos case.
Also, Ronaldo and Messi had midfielders like Xavi, Iniesta, and Modric. Ronaldo had Benzema too who is a selfless team player that knew his role perfectly.
Rooney was a force in Europe for years while being world class in his league which was either best or second best in his prime.
For England? Ya he disappointed a bit but look at his other forwards in tournaments :
SWP, Walcott, Lennon, Downing, Johnson, Defoe, Bent, Ashley Young, Welbeck, Caroll and Heskey was actually his partner in a world cup. Heskey. Try and make a semi final with that. When he did have Kane and Sterling he was washed up at that point.
In that vain Robben, Rooney, Eto'o, and Drogba are just above average. These were incredible players.
Playing for Barca and Real have definitely boosted Ronaldo's and messi's stats. Both dont score at the same rate for country as well as previous and post clubs in ronaldos case.
Also, Ronaldo and Messi had midfielders like Xavi, Iniesta, and Modric. Ronaldo had Benzema too who is a selfless team player that knew his role perfectly.
Rooney was a force in Europe for years while being world class in his league which was either best or second best in his prime.
For England? Ya he disappointed a bit but look at his other forwards in tournaments :
SWP, Walcott, Lennon, Downing, Johnson, Defoe, Bent, Ashley Young, Welbeck, Caroll and Heskey was actually his partner in a world cup. Heskey. Try and make a semi final with that. When he did have Kane and Sterling he was washed up at that point.
Really? In hindsight, people may accept that the winner was the best player but most are debatable.
Most effective striker? Maybe but Rooney was more than that and far better at other things than Kane is. He was our best goalscorer and creator at times. While Kane focuses purely on goalscoring, Rooney was moved between the two roles over the course of his career and sometimes expected to do both.
Sad day for me when he broke Sir Bobby Charlton's goal-scoring record for Manchester United, but i'd probably have said that even if he hadn't flirted outrageously with both City and Chelsea and not ignored the great advice he was given early in his career that if he didn't keep on top of his fitness he'd be finished at the top level by his late 20's because of his body shape.
GOAT
Rooney was not primarily a goalscorer and trying to damn him with his (actually exceptional) goalscoring record is completely absurd. I feel like this kind of nonsense always sidesteps the indisputable fact that Rooney wasn't a centre forward, he just played there occasionally. That combined with his awful form under LVG (who ruined pretty much everyone else who played for him as well), and a lingering resentment over the contract stuff seems to have given an awful lot of people some form of amnesia.
Nobody remotely sane disputes his quality when he was playing alongside Ronaldo, but those weren't even his best years. The five seasons after Ronny jumped ship are his real legacy, even with the club's relative lack of success in those years. In those five seasons between Ronaldo's departure and Van Gaal's arrival, Wayne Rooney started 138 league games for us, scoring 93 goals and getting 45 assists. That's a goal or assist a game, as good as any attacking player's record in the history of the league, and some of you lot think that was him in decline...
Nobody remotely sane disputes his quality when he was playing alongside Ronaldo, but those weren't even his best years. The five seasons after Ronny jumped ship are his real legacy, even with the club's relative lack of success in those years. In those five seasons between Ronaldo's departure and Van Gaal's arrival, Wayne Rooney started 138 league games for us, scoring 93 goals and getting 45 assists. That's a goal or assist a game, as good as any attacking player's record in the history of the league, and some of you lot think that was him in decline...
When your team that good everybody cannot be the "main guy". If we deem only Ronaldo to be our main guy then that's a slight on Vidic and Rio which is silly. If we deem Keane or Cantona to be the "main guy" then is that a slight on Scholes and Giggs?
Rooney is up there with the best this league has seen. While Ronaldo was better than him during their best years at United let's not forget that as a teenager, Rooney was superior. And he gave the league and United more years of service and excellence. It's possible that Rio and Vidic had higher peak years but overall Rooney is up there with all of these players. Those who want pure stats won't go for him, but in terms of a combination of influence and heart, Rooney, particularly under 28, was absolutely brilliant. This notion that his actual level wasn't that is silly.
He had two huge seasons for us where he plundered in almost 60 goals in the league. His best seasons I think was between 09 to 12. He was great in the second half of the 10/11 season when he came back after the transfer fiasco to help us win the league and bring us to CL finals. The first half of that season he was dogshite and playing to get out.
I think Rooney has always been a polarizing player for us because of the huge expectations that were placed upon him when he was a teenager. People were expecting R9, Pele and Maradona levels of talent when he obviously wasn't. He also had a very low bottom level and wasn't the most eye-pleasing player. He still a top-class player and legend of the club.
I think he could have had more impact if he took care of himself a bit better and if he was a bit more stable in terms of which position he needed to play.
2 good seasons? You're just trying to get a reaction. You obviously are a young lad who is just looking at stats. Wayne Rooney was a beast of a player. Was a honour to have been able to watch his entire career.
Also how do you become united and england top scorer if you only have 2 good years?
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Wasn't the most eye pleasing player? He was a joy to watch. So many fantastic moments. I loved watching him play.
I think he was massively underappreciated in most of his time here and his goalscoring record speaks for itself. Definitely declined massively towards the end of his time here though.
The City flirting, even if his reasons were kind of valid did sour it for me. I was always a bit frustrated with him, he was brilliant for us, and I always had the nagging feeling he could have been even more, which is mad to say about our leading goalscorer of all time but I still stand by it. His decline was quite steep and seeing him play every week as a shadow of his former self was painful.
He's a Utd legend for sure though, and I think his standing with us will only grow as time goes by.
He's a Utd legend for sure though, and I think his standing with us will only grow as time goes by.
Yeah I really must be a young lad. I listed out his seasons and provided a brief summary of his performance for context. I couldn't possibly have watched him all his career. I clearly drew my conclusions from his stats
Btw where do I say he only had 2 good seasons. He had many good seasons but not enough top class ones. Why don't you tell me all the seasons Rooney was exceptional in?
The transfer fiasco leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, but I actually think Rooney echoed the perception of many fans and his frustration was the decline of the quality of the team. Whether it was to make a point or he was actually going to leave, we'll never know. But let's not forget Denis Law finished his career at City. Different time and set of circumstances I know, but these days he would be vilified.
Rooney was in equal parts frustrating and amazing, amazing in the sense that he scored goals you wouldn't believe, but frustrating in the sense that he never really reached his true potential. If he did, then he would have been held in the same breath as Ronaldo, Messi and co. because never have I seen such a talented teenager play in the prem with such an already well developed and well rounded game.
He goes down as Manchester United's all time goalscorer, and will more than likely hold that record for a long time. The fact that often he played second fiddle in the team to Ronaldo, or out on the wing to accommodate Berbatov and Tevez, and the fact that he only really had a few seasons as a true CF show how incredible those stats are.
Desire, aggression, heart and a touch of real class are what I think of when I recall Rooney's career. Goals, assists, last ditch tackles, on his day he was everywhere, and when he played well the entire team did. We'll likely not see such well rounded footballer as him for a long time, and given what we are watching now we should be blessed for the 14 years or however long he spent here.
In the end, a mixture of body shape, bad lifestyle and off-field antics really caught up to him, and tainted his legacy. Compare him to Ronaldo, a year older and still one of the best at the very top. Comparing their career trajectories from 29 onwards really paints a picture.
So in a nutshell, he was a really, really world class player, but could have been so much more.
Rooney was in equal parts frustrating and amazing, amazing in the sense that he scored goals you wouldn't believe, but frustrating in the sense that he never really reached his true potential. If he did, then he would have been held in the same breath as Ronaldo, Messi and co. because never have I seen such a talented teenager play in the prem with such an already well developed and well rounded game.
He goes down as Manchester United's all time goalscorer, and will more than likely hold that record for a long time. The fact that often he played second fiddle in the team to Ronaldo, or out on the wing to accommodate Berbatov and Tevez, and the fact that he only really had a few seasons as a true CF show how incredible those stats are.
Desire, aggression, heart and a touch of real class are what I think of when I recall Rooney's career. Goals, assists, last ditch tackles, on his day he was everywhere, and when he played well the entire team did. We'll likely not see such well rounded footballer as him for a long time, and given what we are watching now we should be blessed for the 14 years or however long he spent here.
In the end, a mixture of body shape, bad lifestyle and off-field antics really caught up to him, and tainted his legacy. Compare him to Ronaldo, a year older and still one of the best at the very top. Comparing their career trajectories from 29 onwards really paints a picture.
So in a nutshell, he was a really, really world class player, but could have been so much more.
He's had a phenomenal career that dwarfs most other players but there's always going to be a sense of what could have been with him. The very fact we witnessed him and CR7 in their early years and watched their development makes it all the more stark because it's so clear how important lifestyle and attitude is to be considered amongst the best in the world. That said, CR7 set the bar stupidly high so that shouldn't cloud Rooney's legacy.
He should always be considered a club & England legend but for various reasons he won't be as fondly remembered as his stats deserve. For a player who played deeper and was never a Ruud type striker, the stats are even more phenomenal - probably the most naturally gifted all rounder I have seen.
He should always be considered a club & England legend but for various reasons he won't be as fondly remembered as his stats deserve. For a player who played deeper and was never a Ruud type striker, the stats are even more phenomenal - probably the most naturally gifted all rounder I have seen.
Top 5 club legends for me and it shouldn't even be up for debate. Top goalscorer, 6th most number of appearances, crucial part of arguably our most dominant era ever (2007-11)
Also, only Giggs has more assists for our club, I don't think even Scholes has as many as Rooney.
I'll admit I'm extremely biased as Rooney is my favourite ever United player, but in my opinion, together with Keane and Scholes, they are the 3 most influential players under Sir Alex's tenure.
In those post Ronaldo seasons a lot of people couldn’t see the wood for the trees, focusing on Rooney’s performances when he was never the issue. You sell Ronaldo, you sign Owen and Valencia, then trot in Ashley Young?
Something similar is happening with Pogba, though his commitment and quality is far less proven and more questionable.
Something similar is happening with Pogba, though his commitment and quality is far less proven and more questionable.
You said that 06/07 was 'Another very inconsistent season' for Rooney, which either means you didn't watch us that year, or you've since had some kind of head injury.
There really are some clowns on here. I said he had an inconsistent season that had excellent high points and long barren spells, what part about that isn't true?
At the end of the season 8 of our players made the team of the year (rightly so). Rooney didn't make I wonder why.
Nobody gives a flying feck about the PFA team of the year.
He scored 23 goals and got 15 assists, a goal or assist every 121 minutes. Anyone who actually watched us back then knows that season was just about the best we've ever been going forward, and it was every bit as much about him as it was Ronaldo that year.
Just because you looked on wikipedia and saw gaps between games he scored in doesn't make his season 'inconsistent', for christ's sake.
He scored 23 goals and got 15 assists, a goal or assist every 121 minutes. Anyone who actually watched us back then knows that season was just about the best we've ever been going forward, and it was every bit as much about him as it was Ronaldo that year.
Just because you looked on wikipedia and saw gaps between games he scored in doesn't make his season 'inconsistent', for christ's sake.