We are 2nd in the league and deserve to be there. Agree?

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,117
We’re only there because everyone else has been shit tbf, we’ve done okay and gotten good draws against some of the top 6 which is good if they were 1-0 wins I think we’d all definitely say we deserve to be there fine margins really.

I think we’ll win a cup this season though we’ve got the squad for it now.

It's not because other teams have been shit, it's a stupid argument to make, it is because they have won the second most points over the last 26 games.

Do Liverpool deserve to be 6th?

No, they are only there because everyone else has improved got more points than them.
 

Dirty Schwein

Has a 'Best of Britney Spears' album
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
32,014
Location
Miracle World
Supports
Luton Town
The issue is whether the board will want to build on this in the summer or are they happy with just achieving top 4...

City are City, they'll most likely buy a striker and God knows who else.
Liverpool will have VVD and Gomez back and you would assume a couple of players to freshen up the squad.
Chelsea will be much better next season. They have already improved under their new coach.

Hopefully we make some moves in the transfer market and then you could see these 4 teams competing for the title.

I doubt the likes of Leicester. West Ham, Everton, Spurs could break into the top 4 if the big four teams do the right business.
 

Zaphod2319

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
4,209
Supports
Chelsea
I added this to the Tuchel thread. Only because any success that Chelsea is experiencing, this is a reminder that we are nowhere where we need to be. I think both teams have more work that needs to be done. A top 4 finish would be really good after the last two months. I do agree that Man Utd have earned the second spot, I don't think based on this and other stats it is going to be easy to stay there until the end.

A chart on how the big six have done against each other this year.

 

tomaldinho1

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
17,712
Chelsea have taken 15 points in 7 matches since Tuchel has taken over as manager which is good but certainly not Pl winning form by any stretch of imagination and I can't see them sustaining it either and overtaking us, gap would only grow between us and them they would have done really well if they make top 4 from here on.

Leicester are already facing serious injury issues and well Everton won't be making top 4 either injury crisis or not.
(15/7) x 26 would have them in 2nd, 7 points behind City. It would also lead to an 81 point season. Technically you are right at this moment in time as City are higher but it's very strong form.
 

Norman Brownbutter

ask him about his bath time mishap
Joined
Nov 4, 2020
Messages
1,668
I guess, although I cant say Im enjoying watching us play. Most of the time Im bored and doing other things. Ive made a point of watching every single game since SAF retired and this is on par with the most boring LVG had to offer. Its just not fun to watch. Its all hit and hope, misplaced passes and moments of brilliance. I once had a conversation with a guy about what was more important, being entertained, or winning. For me, if all that matters is the win I might as well just be checking the scores at full time. football is supposed to be fun and entertaining. Even when we are winning, Im bored. Even when we are winning by a lot, Im bored. It seems everyone(an over exaggeration. I dont watch everyone) is playing more entertaining football than we are. But they are below us, so I guess we deserve it based on results. But more often than not, its a slog to get through and the actually entertaining games are too few and far between in my opinion.
 

SuperiorXI

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2012
Messages
14,606
Location
Manchester, England
For sure we deserve to be there. But it's still not good enough, we need that top spot. If we can keep it to 6-12 pts this season, next season is about a title challenge for sure.
 

El Jefe

Full Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2012
Messages
4,899
Of course we deserve it but has to be mentioned that if Liverpool weren't decimated by injuries we'd most likely be third.
 

elmo

Can never have too many Eevees
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
13,361
Location
AKA: Slapanut Goat Smuggla
The issue is whether the board will want to build on this in the summer or are they happy with just achieving top 4...

City are City, they'll most likely buy a striker and God knows who else.
Liverpool will have VVD and Gomez back and you would assume a couple of players to freshen up the squad.
Chelsea will be much better next season. They have already improved under their new coach.

Hopefully we make some moves in the transfer market and then you could see these 4 teams competing for the title.

I doubt the likes of Leicester. West Ham, Everton, Spurs could break into the top 4 if the big four teams do the right business.
They only spend money improving the starting 11 when we finish out of the top 4 and limit the spending to improve the bench when we finish in it.

That's almost how every summer window has been since Woodward took over.
 

Infra-red

Full Member
Joined
May 4, 2010
Messages
13,418
Location
left wing
Of course we deserve it but has to be mentioned that if Liverpool weren't decimated by injuries we'd most likely be third.
I think this would equally be true if Chelsea weren't decimated by Frank Lampard.

Next season will be a lot tougher in terms of getting into the top 2/3.
 

slored1

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2016
Messages
3,532
We’re only there because everyone else has been shit tbf, we’ve done okay and gotten good draws against some of the top 6 which is good if they were 1-0 wins I think we’d all definitely say we deserve to be there fine margins really.

I think we’ll win a cup this season though we’ve got the squad for it now.
Disagree partly with that point. I'd even argue we were quite unlucky in the recent bad run, should be closer to City. Some ridiculously marginal things going against us (Cavani misses vs Arsenal, two major refereeing decisions against us in the Sheffield game, Maguire's goal against Burnley, no foul against Lindelof...). So I think if we replay this season after the Spurs game again 10 times, we'd be second at this point in time quite often.
 
Last edited:

kkengvib

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
154
Location
Basel, Switzerland
The table doesn't lie.
Based on current form however, I believe we deserve to be comfortably in the top 4. If you had asked me this question a month ago, I'd say top 2.
 

Noodle

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
323
Supports
Chelsea
The league doesn't lie.
This is one of my least favorite myths, the league can and does regularly lie. This assumes that luck balances out over a season but that's not how luck works. Many teams have vastly overperformed/underperformed based on what would be expected due to luck and bad refereeing decisions.

For instance it only takes a net result of 3 big refereeing decisions over a season and you can +/- a variance of 18 points in position, that's the difference between a top four place and a 12th place finish in a lot of seasons.

For what it's worth i think you've been comfortably worthy of a top 4 position, but i wouldn't say you're by far the second best team in the league.
 

Deery

Dreary
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
18,590
It's not because other teams have been shit, it's a stupid argument to make, it is because they have won the second most points over the last 26 games.

Do Liverpool deserve to be 6th?

No, they are only there because everyone else has improved got more points than them.
They’re there because of injuries mate, let’s not pretend we’re something we’re not if Leicester weren’t constant bottlers they’d be second now and Chelsea have massively underperformed considering the money they’ve spent.

I’m happy we’re second and the table doesn’t lie but in a regular season not under these circumstances I don’t think we’d be second.
 

gajender

Full Member
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
3,849
(15/7) x 26 would have them in 2nd, 7 points behind City. It would also lead to an 81 point season. Technically you are right at this moment in time as City are higher but it's very strong form.
Sample size is way too small to make any kind to judgement to be honest at this moment , if they lose against Liverpool which is a possibility suddenly his start wouldn't look so great ,Tuchel is very good coach most probably he would do very well with Chelsea but it's way too early to comment on his impact on Chelsea whether positive or negative.
 

RUCK4444

New Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
9,553
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
I never understand that "deserve" word in football. Did we cheated? No. So deserved. Every club in PL is in deserved position.

Well, except City. They cheat with FFP.
This.

You deserve exactly whatever position your in.

We are 2nd so are currently the 2nd best team. We’ve all played same amount of games more or less.

I think we have underachieved this season if anything. If you factor in how poor our finishing has been compared to last season (the forwards) then we should only be in a much better points return than we are now imo.

We’ve missed chance after chance.

Also you have to factor in (imo) the lack of a preseason and therefore how terribly unfit we were at the very start of the season.

Not to mention no proper backing in the summer. When you add it up we should be having a much better season than we are imo.
 

automaticflare

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2016
Messages
1,490
I don't think Bruno's goal rate is sustainable and that masks our defensive inabilities. We consistently concede shit goals.

Our form since going top has been absolutely shambolic, but other teams have gone through similar periods.

I think we are lucky tbh. and it is quite tight on who is best of the rest after City.
 

RUCK4444

New Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
9,553
Location
$¥$¥$¥$¥$
They’re there because of injuries mate, let’s not pretend we’re something we’re not if Leicester weren’t constant bottlers they’d be second now and Chelsea have massively underperformed considering the money they’ve spent.

I’m happy we’re second and the table doesn’t lie but in a regular season not under these circumstances I don’t think we’d be second.
If Leicester weren’t constant bottlers?

That’s like saying if Sheff United were playing like last season they would be 6th. But there not, so there is no point talking about what-ifs.

Liverpool have been woeful going forwards not defensively, how does losing CB’s affect your goal scoring? C’mon. They are where they deserve to be, just as we would be if we were in their current position.
 

always_hoping

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
7,733
Yes the league table doesn't lie however a long way to go yet and no guarantee a top 4 finish will happen as still only 6 points ahead of 5th.
 

simplyared

Full Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
4,382
Location
somewhere ouside the UK
We are there on merit as the League doesn't lie... but wouldn't agree that we are definitely best of the rest. I haven't a clue how we would fare against many teams in the Premier League on a given day... am I confident going to Palace this week for example? Hopeful, but not confident.

I feel the fact that we are second, is a statement about the current quality of the Premier League, rather than our being better than everyone apart from City, but that's a seperate discussion.
That's exactly what the threads about. If you'd asked me that question a month ago I would have felt the same as you. Now I don't because I expect us to win because we have far more quality than they have.
 

Deery

Dreary
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
18,590
Disagree partly with that point. I'd even argue we were quite unlucky in the recent bad run, should be closer to City. Some ridiculously marginal things going against us (Cavani misses vs Arsenal, two major refereeing decisions against us in the Sheffield game, Maguire's goal against Burnley, no foul against Lindelof...). So I think if we replay this season after the Spurs game again 10 times, we'd be second at this point in time quite often.
Yeah there’s been fine margins as I said if we can turn draws into wins against the top 6 we will have a very good next season.
 

tomaldinho1

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
17,712
Sample size is way too small to make any kind to judgement to be honest at this moment , if they lose against Liverpool which is a possibility suddenly his start wouldn't look so great ,Tuchel is very good coach most probably he would do very well with Chelsea but it's way too early to comment on his impact on Chelsea whether positive or negative.
Yes of course, my point was so far their form has been great.
 

EliotTheRed

Full Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2011
Messages
315
Location
Gilwern, South Wales
Absolutely, it’s an improvement points and position wise on last season. Despite that, some results have been disappointing recently where we’ve dropped needless points.

Over the course of the season though I think we’re closest to City than the rest.

Further improvement next year will depend on summer signings obviously, but I’m optimistic for next season already.
 

Annihilate Now!

...or later, I'm not fussy
Scout
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
49,914
Location
W.Yorks
This is one of my least favorite myths, the league can and does regularly lie. This assumes that luck balances out over a season but that's not how luck works. Many teams have vastly overperformed/underperformed based on what would be expected due to luck and bad refereeing decisions.

For instance it only takes a net result of 3 big refereeing decisions over a season and you can +/- a variance of 18 points in position, that's the difference between a top four place and a 12th place finish in a lot of seasons.

For what it's worth i think you've been comfortably worthy of a top 4 position, but i wouldn't say you're by far the second best team in the league.
We're not by far the second best team, we're the second best team by about a point... which is about right.

I was being a bit flippant by trotting out the saying, but largely the league is a fairly accurate representation of how good you are, particularly at the end of the season.

I mean the league is probably lying with where West Ham are, but having said that on current form and standing you can see why they're there, and if they continue and are there at the end of the season then they'll have been the 4th best team this season.

And much is made of ref decisions, but then you get into "if my aunt had balls" territory, and frankly all teams will moan that more decisions have gone against them then have.
 

Deery

Dreary
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
18,590
If Leicester weren’t constant bottlers?

That’s like saying if Sheff United were playing like last season they would be 6th. But there not, so there is no point talking about what-ifs.

Liverpool have been woeful going forwards not defensively, how does losing CB’s affect your goal scoring? C’mon. They are where they deserve to be, just as we would be if we were in their current position.
They bottled the top 4 last season and the chance to overtake us twice this season I think it has to be said, Liverpool lost some of their midfield as well and didn’t have their front 3 regularly for large parts of the season as well as their CB’s, not that I want to defend Liverpool but injuries have affected them.
 

RedDevil@84

Full Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
21,649
Location
USA
Err.. Yes obviously.

But the season is not over yet. And we have a tough run in. It will be really difficult to stay 2nd. But hope we do.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
12,557
We've been less shit than the rest but they've the excuse of having injuries.

Who have Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs had injured? remind me please?

Pogba, Cavani arguably our form players both have missed the last 4/5 games.

Are you saying we haven't had any injuries? Bailly? McTominay? Pogba? Cavani?
 

Oranges038

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
12,117
They’re there because of injuries mate, let’s not pretend we’re something we’re not if Leicester weren’t constant bottlers they’d be second now and Chelsea have massively underperformed considering the money they’ve spent.

I’m happy we’re second and the table doesn’t lie but in a regular season not under these circumstances I don’t think we’d be second.
They are their because that is where they deserve to be based off points won. Just like Utd are second based off points won, just like Sheffield Utd deserve to be bottom. You deserve your position on the table after 26 or 38 games based on whether or not you earn more or less points than other teams. Isn't that how the league table works?

Maybe there should be a deserving league table with points added and subtracted for extenuating circumstances such as injuries or referees making bad decisions.
 

Deery

Dreary
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
18,590
They are their because that is where they deserve to be based off points won. Just like Utd are second based off points won, just like Sheffield Utd deserve to be bottom. You deserve your position on table after 26 or 38 games based on whether or not you earn more or less points than other teams. Isn't that how the league table works?

Maybe there should be a deserving league table with points added and subtracted for extenuating circumstances such as injuries or referees making bad decisions.
Well if you look at my post I didn’t exactly say we didn’t deserve to be there I said we are there because everyone else aren’t as good as they should be so I guess we can agree on that.
 

Zlatan 7

We've got bush!
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
11,767
Well if you look at my post I didn’t exactly say we didn’t deserve to be there I said we are there because everyone else aren’t as good as they should be so I guess we can agree on that.
As good as they should be, how good is that? Are we being better or worse than we should be, or not as good as we should be but still a slightly better not as good as we should be than teams below us?
 

Nick7

Full Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
19,307
Location
Ireland
Yes the league table doesn't lie however a long way to go yet and no guarantee a top 4 finish will happen as still only 6 points ahead of 5th.
yeah this is worrying. We aren't far away from a top 4 scrap at all. Look at Leicester last season. A bad run and they fall out of the CL spots that they were nailed on for. They were 12 points ahead of us at this stage last season.
 

2 man midfield

Last Man Standing finalist 2021/22
Joined
Sep 4, 2012
Messages
46,000
Location
?
Yeah definitely, it’s a shame that we’ve had such a poor run recently. We’ve lost 15 points on city this side of Christmas, just makes you wonder what could have been.
 

SAFMUTD

New Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
11,787
Points don't lie, there's no "deserving" in football. We have been the 2nd best team in the league, but lets not fool ourselves thinking we are close to being champions. We are as close to City's 1st place as we are to Arsenals 10th.

We have been the second best mainly because Liverpool dropped massively and we are the best of the rest.
 

Robbie Boy

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
28,092
Location
Dublin
I could make a case that Sheffield United should be there but that would be all sorts of crazy.
 

Pogue Mahone

The caf's Camus.
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
133,828
Location
"like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
I added this to the Tuchel thread. Only because any success that Chelsea is experiencing, this is a reminder that we are nowhere where we need to be. I think both teams have more work that needs to be done. A top 4 finish would be really good after the last two months. I do agree that Man Utd have earned the second spot, I don't think based on this and other stats it is going to be easy to stay there until the end.

A chart on how the big six have done against each other this year.

Those big six charts are kind of pointless. Last season we were top (or very close to the top anyway?). This season we’re bottom. We haven’t changed much. It’s a tiny sample of games so you can’t draw any lasting conclusions. Unlike the 38 matches played over a full season. Which tells us exactly how good those 6 teams are, relative to each other.
 

vanrooney

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
2,160
Location
Austria
of course we deserve to be there and we had injuries too. pogba was in top form when he went down against everton and may have made a big difference in the games since then. pogba also had covid and missed large parts at the start of the season
 

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
37,331
yeah this is worrying. We aren't far away from a top 4 scrap at all. Look at Leicester last season. A bad run and they fall out of the CL spots that they were nailed on for. They were 12 points ahead of us at this stage last season.
We arent chasing 1 spot this year though. 1 team may go on a tear and overtake us but 3 teams arent coming from the pack and putting pressure on us.
Look at this Wednesday, a draw in Liverpool v Chelsea and we win v a weak Palace side and we are comfortably clear of both, with 11 games left.