We are a lazy team with no intensity

RedStarUnited

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
8,215
Sure some players are worse than others (Rashford) but as a team we are simply too lethargic. This is the build up for the third goal against Brighton, its almost 2 minute long and I think theres only 1 moment in the whole move we put any sort of a decent press on a player with the ball. Its near the touchline when Casemiro presses two players and Reguillon almost wins it back.



30 passes and 3 were challenged. This is not an issue of 1 or 2 players its a team thing. Any team can come to OT and give us a game simply by working harder than us. For all the plaudits Peps City get for their on the ball skills, you will hardly ever see a passage of play like this against them. I thought ETH would fix this but it seems unfixable.
 
Sure some players are worse than others (Rashford) but as a team we are simply too lethargic. This is the build up for the third goal against Brighton, its almost 2 minute long and I think theres only 1 moment in the whole move we put any sort of a decent press on a player with the ball. Its near the touchline when Casemiro presses two players and Reguillon almost wins it back.



30 passes and 3 were challenged. This is not an issue of 1 or 2 players its a team thing. Any team can come to OT and give us a game simply by working harder than us. For all the plaudits Peps City get for their on the ball skills, you will hardly ever see a passage of play like this against them. I thought ETH would fix this but it seems unfixable.


But you will certainly see a passage like that by them. You will never see it from us, which is more of what is holding us back from being a top side than anything else.
 
Scotty getting rinsed by their fullback and then not breaking a half arsed job to get back.
 
Scotty getting rinsed by their fullback and then not breaking a half arsed job to get back.
Yep, McTominay was the worst all game. Never chased back properly. Clearly he's not arsed after it was made clear he wasn't rated by ETH.

Casemiro jogged around looking fat and tired. Eriksen doesn't have the legs anyway.

Rashford wasn't great, but unlike those other players he almost created goals and affected the game.
 
But you will certainly see a passage like that by them. You will never see it from us, which is more of what is holding us back from being a top side than anything else.

See this is a wrong view. both things are equally as important to each other. The more you have the ball/control the less work you have to to win it back. At the same time the less work you do off the ball = less of the ball. So without working hard to win it back you cant put together any moves.

Yep, McTominay was the worst all game. Never chased back properly. Clearly he's not arsed after it was made clear he wasn't rated by ETH.

Casemiro jogged around looking fat and tired. Eriksen doesn't have the legs anyway.

Rashford wasn't great, but unlike those other players he almost created goals and affected the game.

But he didnt affect the game. we scored one goal and that was nothing to do with him. So theres should not be a but for him either.

Too many excuses for this team.
 
Our pressing has always been bad, and you could see it clearly here. Half assed attempts, and most of the time it's just one player trying to close down an opponent when two others just ball watching, barely moving.
 
Yep, McTominay was the worst all game. Never chased back properly. Clearly he's not arsed after it was made clear he wasn't rated by ETH.

Casemiro jogged around looking fat and tired. Eriksen doesn't have the legs anyway.

Rashford wasn't great, but unlike those other players he almost created goals and affected the game.

He is by far the worst one on a game by game basis. He is the most lazy and selfish player I have seen for many many years and his decision making in non existent. He affects the game alright, but in the wrong way. Him loosing the ball because he won't pass or his lack of pressing is normally the start of a goal from the other team.
 
But he didnt affect the game. we scored one goal and that was nothing to do with him. So theres should not be a but for him either.

Too many excuses for this team.
Rashford was by a mile our best attacker that game. The only one Brighton was afraid of. Nearly assisted Hojlund twice. Hit the woodwork.

He was not the problem.
 
It's games like this that you realise players like Antony is at least willing to run and track back. Wish he can improve in his final third.

I also think our wings constantly gets exposed.
 
If the roles were reversed and we were the passing side, I wonder how many times we would have to replay it before succeeding in 30 passes before a goal.
 
Rashford was by a mile our best attacker that game. The only one Brighton was afraid of. Nearly assisted Hojlund twice. Hit the woodwork.

He was not the problem.

That is the problem because that's all he can be bothered to do.
 
I didn't see that tactical fouling the moment you were dribbled past. That's what Pep's team always do.

Don't know if this is a player issue or coaching issue .
 
I'm so bored of defending Rashford. I'll leave you all to it. If he gets injured long term we'll see how we look shall we. You can all hug each other with glee
That is the problem because that's all he can be bothered to do.
Unlike all the other players he affected the game, provided threat with intensity on the ball, was unlucky not to get a goal or assist. None of the others did this. So why is he the one to get piled on?

Yes his workrate was poor in the second half and we know his head drops and he sulks when things aren't going well. He's not the only one as we know, the whole team was at it. But compared to Casemiro, Eriksen, McTominay etc he played much much better. But he gets all the stick. I genuinely wonder about our fanbase.
 
Rashford was by a mile our best attacker that game. The only one Brighton was afraid of. Nearly assisted Hojlund twice. Hit the woodwork.

He was not the problem.

Being an attacking threat doesn’t mean you don’t have to put in your shift in defending.
 
Come on, i know Rashford could do more work but it would defently also affect his attacking. He will always be one of our biggest threats. Our problem is without doubt our midfield. Casemiros limit is movement - he controls, tackle and place him well but the leg isnt there. We desperatly need a good CDM who run like hell and can cover the field. With Bruno in front, we can close down the team down way better.

I think we can do better than Casemiro, but he is still a really good footballer when the game suits him.

I am more worried about the lack of ability to change/adjust the tactics in game. It has been a problem in a long time now.
 
It's not like Brighton pressed us particularly hard. We had plenty of time on the ball. I don't think they worked harder.

It's all about that bit in the final third. They were very good in those key moments up top and we weren't.

All the other talk abouy tactics, pressing, intensity is just noise.
 
I'm so bored of defending Rashford. I'll leave you all to it. If he gets injured long term we'll see how we look shall we. You can all hug each other with glee

No one want's him injured, just for him to do what he is obviously being asked to do.

Unlike all the other players he affected the game, provided threat with intensity on the ball, was unlucky not to get a goal or assist. None of the others did this. So why is he the one to get piled on?

Yeah he did, but again this also highlights his poor decision making. Numerous times we would of had a better chance to score if he passed it to someone else. Much like other games.

Yes his workrate was poor in the second half and we know his head drops and he sulks when things aren't going well. He's not the only one as we know, the whole team was at it. But compared to Casemiro, Eriksen, McTominay etc he played much much better. But he gets all the stick. I genuinely wonder about our fanbase.

Because it's week in week out? It's like he thinks pressing is just about tackling. He presses, doesn't get the ball, head drops and then doesn't bother for the next 10 minutes. It's obvious EtH wants us to press high.

"we know his head drops and he sulks when things aren't going well" - great.

Honestly, I think he could be one hell of a player if a) he could recognise when a pass is on, that someone else is in a better position to score than him and b) work for the team in the defensive phase.
 
Scotty getting rinsed by their fullback and then not breaking a half arsed job to get back.

That really pissed me off. If you're Scott McTominay, a professional footballer with extremely limited skills, you have to be at full tilt defensively or else you are literally useless.
 
I'm so bored of defending Rashford. I'll leave you all to it. If he gets injured long term we'll see how we look shall we. You can all hug each other with glee

Unlike all the other players he affected the game, provided threat with intensity on the ball, was unlucky not to get a goal or assist. None of the others did this. So why he the one to get piled on?

Yes his workrate was poor in the second half and we know his head drops and he sulks when things aren't going well. He's not the only one as we know, the whole team was at it. But compared to Casemiro, Eriksen, McTominay etc he played much much better. But he gets all the stick. I genuinely wonder about our fanbase.
I find it amazing when people on this forum are so baffled as to why a lot of us single out and pile in on Rashford and give him so much stick.

He is supposedly United through and through and has regularly said in interviews work rate is the minimum 'we' (meaning himself and the players) should be giving for the badge and the fans. Yet he can't be bothered to work.

He is one of the highest paid players in the league!

He struts around like he is Messi.

He can't pass.

He can only shoot with all his power.

A lot of attacks break down through him.

A lot of goals against us come from his side of the pitch as he refuses to track runners.

However poorly he plays he isn't dropped.

He isn't the only problem by a long stretch, but he is our talisman, and if our talisman can't be bothered to work off the ball what makes you think any of the other players will..

I would swap him with so many other wingers, and these other wingers may not score as much he did last season BUT I believe the team would score more and concede less without Rashford.
 
The crowd were on him by the second half, a few groans at him. People see whats infront of them
 
If the roles were reversed and we were the passing side, I wonder how many times we would have to replay it before succeeding in 30 passes before a goal.
We did it quite a few times last season including against Arsenal at home, but carry on
 
It's not like Brighton pressed us particularly hard. We had plenty of time on the ball. I don't think they worked harder.

It's all about that bit in the final third. They were very good in those key moments up top and we weren't.

All the other talk abouy tactics, pressing, intensity is just noise.

And why should they? Their passing game renders them one of the more productive teams in the league in terms of chances created. What they lack is the budget that will allow them to have players able to make the most of that. Pep has described them, relatively to their size as a club, as the best passing team in Europe.

When you are a transition team, pressing, intensity and aggression should matter. Often times, these things are the difference between Liverpool having a good season or not.

As for the final third. Their first two goals were the two best chances in the game (xG 0.52 and xG 0.30 respectively, both classify as excellent chances). For comparison, our best chance had an xG 0.16 (Rashford in the 25th minute) , while Hannibal's goal was measured at xG 0.03. Before you can be good in those key moments, you have to become good at making them happen.
 
There’s stats that show Rashford has by far the most sprints of any player for us this season - more than Bruno. You can see he’s knackered after sprinting forward constantly, I’m not saying it’s the only reason, but I don’t think he can play 90 minutes at the intensity people are expecting - Antony regularly comes off early for example.

There’s a reason City and Brighton can press like they do, they aren’t asking their players to run onto long balls constantly and make lung busting runs.
 
There’s stats that show Rashford has by far the most sprints of any player for us this season - more than Bruno. You can see he’s knackered after sprinting forward constantly, I’m not saying it’s the only reason, but I don’t think he can play 90 minutes at the intensity people are expecting - Antony regularly comes off early for example.

There’s a reason City and Brighton can press like they do, they aren’t asking their players to run onto long balls constantly and make lung busting runs.

You're not allowed to be sensible in the middle of a witch hunt fella.
Rashford is not doing what the manager is asking, and the manager is playing him everyweek because he is the managers favorite and teacher pet
Get on board and get the pitch forks out
Lets analyse his play by looking at isolated clips and not actually measure his work rate and running intensity in the games with any objective measurements.

Actually let's ignore the objective measurements when it does not suit the agenda, pitch forks to the ready
 
No one want's him injured, just for him to do what he is obviously being asked to do.



Yeah he did, but again this also highlights his poor decision making. Numerous times we would of had a better chance to score if he passed it to someone else. Much like other games.



Because it's week in week out? It's like he thinks pressing is just about tackling. He presses, doesn't get the ball, head drops and then doesn't bother for the next 10 minutes. It's obvious EtH wants us to press high.

"we know his head drops and he sulks when things aren't going well" - great.

Honestly, I think he could be one hell of a player if a) he could recognise when a pass is on, that someone else is in a better position to score than him and b) work for the team in the defensive phase.
I actually don't disagree with anything you say here.

My issue is the completely disproportionate pile-on on specifically Rashford when he was one of our better players in this specific game and is one of our best players full stop.
 
No one want's him injured, just for him to do what he is obviously being asked to do.



Yeah he did, but again this also highlights his poor decision making. Numerous times we would of had a better chance to score if he passed it to someone else. Much like other games.



Because it's week in week out? It's like he thinks pressing is just about tackling. He presses, doesn't get the ball, head drops and then doesn't bother for the next 10 minutes. It's obvious EtH wants us to press high.

"we know his head drops and he sulks when things aren't going well" - great.

Honestly, I think he could be one hell of a player if a) he could recognise when a pass is on, that someone else is in a better position to score than him and b) work for the team in the defensive phase.

No its not, and it depends on the opposition most of the time.

Sometimes we press very high, and sometimes we press from the mid block
 
I actually don't disagree with anything you say here.

My issue is the completely disproportionate pile-on on specifically Rashford when he was one of our better players in this specific game and is one of our best players full stop.

I honestly just think because its game in game out the same thing.
 
I find it amazing when people on this forum are so baffled as to why a lot of us single out and pile in on Rashford and give him so much stick.

He is supposedly United through and through and has regularly said in interviews work rate is the minimum 'we' (meaning himself and the players) should be giving for the badge and the fans. Yet he can't be bothered to work.

He is one of the highest paid players in the league!

He struts around like he is Messi.

He can't pass.

He can only shoot with all his power.

A lot of attacks break down through him.

A lot of goals against us come from his side of the pitch as he refuses to track runners.

However poorly he plays he isn't dropped.

He isn't the only problem by a long stretch, but he is our talisman, and if our talisman can't be bothered to work off the ball what makes you think any of the other players will..

I would swap him with so many other wingers, and these other wingers may not score as much he did last season BUT I believe the team would score more and concede less without Rashford.
Mate, not only did he get 30 goals last season - 30! - but also 11 assists. To say he isn't the problem is the understatement of the century.

Your list reads like irrational hate. He can't pass, ffs. He struts around like Messi, dear lord.
 
Mate, not only did he get 30 goals last season - 30! - but also 11 assists. To say he isn't the problem is the understatement of the century.

Your list reads like irrational hate. He can't pass, ffs. He struts around like Messi, dear lord.
30 goals and 11 assists, amazing. What about the season before? Will we see him reach those heights again, I very much doubt it. Like I just said, we could get in another winger on far less money who will contribute far more to the team than Rashford. I believe we score more and concede less without Rashford. If you think that would be worse then Rashford getting 30 goals and 11 assists each season then that's on you. I support United not Rashford.
 
Sure some players are worse than others (Rashford) but as a team we are simply too lethargic. This is the build up for the third goal against Brighton, its almost 2 minute long and I think theres only 1 moment in the whole move we put any sort of a decent press on a player with the ball. Its near the touchline when Casemiro presses two players and Reguillon almost wins it back.



30 passes and 3 were challenged. This is not an issue of 1 or 2 players its a team thing. Any team can come to OT and give us a game simply by working harder than us. For all the plaudits Peps City get for their on the ball skills, you will hardly ever see a passage of play like this against them. I thought ETH would fix this but it seems unfixable.

If we played like Brighton people here would be moaning, too many back passes, too made sideways passes, get in the box, run at a defender, take a shot.
 
30 goals and 11 assists, amazing. What about the season before? Will we see him reach those heights again, I very much doubt it. Like I just said, we could get in another winger on far less money who will contribute far more to the team than Rashford. I believe we score more and concede less without Rashford. If you think that would be worse then Rashford getting 30 goals and 11 assists each season then that's on you. I support United not Rashford.
We paid £80 million for a winger who can’t assist and scored like three goals last season. £75 million for one the season before that. Neither are now in the squad.

Rashford can see out his 5 year contract and not cost as much as Sancho or Antony did in transfer fees individually.

Please do tell me where we can find this magical left winger that will suddenly allow us to stop conceding three goals a game.
 
30 goals and 11 assists, amazing. A feat Ryan Giggs never once managed, I suppose Rashford is the better player according to you? If you even remember who Giggs was? What about the season before, how many did Rashford score and assist again? Will we see him reach 30 goals and 11 assists again, I very much doubt it.

Like I just said, we could get in another winger on far less money who will contribute far more to the team than Rashford. (Remember Giggs? :smirk:)I believe we score more and concede less without Rashford. If you think that would be worse then Rashford getting 30 goals and 11 assists each season whilst we get outplayed most weeks and win nothing then that's on you. I support United not Rashford.
 
And why should they? Their passing game renders them one of the more productive teams in the league in terms of chances created. What they lack is the budget that will allow them to have players able to make the most of that. Pep has described them, relatively to their size as a club, as the best passing team in Europe.

When you are a transition team, pressing, intensity and aggression should matter. Often times, these things are the difference between Liverpool having a good season or not.

As for the final third. Their first two goals were the two best chances in the game (xG 0.52 and xG 0.30 respectively, both classify as excellent chances). For comparison, our best chance had an xG 0.16 (Rashford in the 25th minute) , while Hannibal's goal was measured at xG 0.03. Before you can be good in those key moments, you have to become good at making them happen.

Which source are you using for those xG ratings? They seem pretty high given the chances, especially the second goal. Understat for example has them at 0.37 and 0.11 respectively (link here).

I agree with you about the pressing, intensity, and aggression, also needs to combined with well drilled pressing instincts, and unity too, knowing the triggers and everyone fulfilling their role. Against Spurs was the most egregious example of some of our players being passengers when we didn't have possession.

Even with the above missing we're still pretty good at winning the ball in dangerous situations, we've just been awful at taking advantage, wasting most of them with poor decision making in particular.
 
There’s stats that show Rashford has by far the most sprints of any player for us this season - more than Bruno. You can see he’s knackered after sprinting forward constantly, I’m not saying it’s the only reason, but I don’t think he can play 90 minutes at the intensity people are expecting - Antony regularly comes off early for example.

There’s a reason City and Brighton can press like they do, they aren’t asking their players to run onto long balls constantly and make lung busting runs.
What qualifies as a sprint for that stat? Because a player can sprint more times, but not expand as much energy as someone that has to do it for a lot longer. I'm not suggesting that's the case here, but it would be good to know what exactly that stat measures. That's something fbref does (explain) for each of their stats.
 
Which source are you using for those xG ratings? They seem pretty high given the chances, especially the second goal. Understat for example has them at 0.37 and 0.11 respectively (link here).

I agree with you about the pressing, intensity, and aggression, also needs to combined with well drilled pressing instincts, and unity too, knowing the triggers and everyone fulfilling their role. Against Spurs was the most egregious example of some of our players being passengers when we didn't have possession.

Even with the above missing we're still pretty good at winning the ball in dangerous situations, we've just been awful at taking advantage, wasting most of them with poor decision making in particular.

Opta for The Analyst. We are generally taking too many risks and we are getting very little in return. Sometimes, we are not good at taking our chances (Spurs game, for example), some others it all looks disjointed and hopeless. I'm not angry at ETH, and i think it's disingenuous to make absolute judgements because everything that could have gone wrong thus far has gone wrong. But i am very disappointed. I look at the 30 passes that led to Brighton's second goal and at the 3 almost identical goals they scored and i can't help but shake my head at how far away we are from that.
 
Opta for The Analyst. We are generally taking too many risks and we are getting very little in return. Sometimes, we are not good at taking our chances (Spurs game, for example), some others it all looks disjointed and hopeless. I'm not angry at ETH, and i think it's disingenuous to make absolute judgements because everything that could have gone wrong thus far has gone wrong. But i am very disappointed. I look at the 30 passes that led to Brighton's second goal and at the 3 almost identical goals they scored and i can't help but shake my head at how far away we are from that.
We are far too direct and simplistic. Unless you are catching the opponent in a bad setup its very easy to defend against.
 
We are a team with lack of physicality that is required in EPL.
 
And why should they? Their passing game renders them one of the more productive teams in the league in terms of chances created. What they lack is the budget that will allow them to have players able to make the most of that. Pep has described them, relatively to their size as a club, as the best passing team in Europe.

When you are a transition team, pressing, intensity and aggression should matter. Often times, these things are the difference between Liverpool having a good season or not.

As for the final third. Their first two goals were the two best chances in the game (xG 0.52 and xG 0.30 respectively, both classify as excellent chances). For comparison, our best chance had an xG 0.16 (Rashford in the 25th minute) , while Hannibal's goal was measured at xG 0.03. Before you can be good in those key moments, you have to become good at making them happen.

Agree and that's what I said. That final pass, that final decision, they got it right and we didn't. There were situations for us to create proper chances but we spurned them.

This argument that Brighton don't have to press but we do seems manufactured to create a point about us being lazy.

If passing more means you don’t have to press like crazy surely the answer is to be better at passing? Not continue to be poor at passing and just run harder.

I thought we won the ball high up fairly well, Brighton gifted it to us a few times. We just did little with it.
 
Agree and that's what I said. That final pass, that final decision, they got it right and we didn't. There were situations for us to create proper chances but we spurned them.

This argument that Brighton don't have to press but we do seems manufactured to create a point about us being lazy.

If passing more means you don’t have to press like crazy surely the answer is to be better at passing? Not continue to be poor at passing and just run harder.

I thought we won the ball high up fairly well, Brighton gifted it to us a few times. We just did little with it.
Well it means they have to press less, City are basically always at the bottom of the table for distance travelled.