I’ve never seen him giving an indication to the team, or trying to motivate the players, always sat in the bench sleeping or asking suggestions to carrick, mckenna
We are an awfully coached team
- Thread starter bond19821982
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
This. Of all the players in our attack, Bruno getting stick for our poor defensive record is absurd. Sure he gives the ball away a lot, but he also tracks back and makes a genuine attempt at winning the ball back
Making a genuine attempt at something has the same result as not doing it at all. So yes, he does try, but he's incapable of actually doing it so the result stays the same. I'm not smart enough to know how Ronaldo has changed this but Bruno has been a problem before Ronaldo got here defensively
He is a problem because when you press other players have to press too. When their keeper has the ball, he is one that is pressing him. No one else apart from Cavani does that. So it is bound to happen that he cannot get back to defend from one end of the pitch to the other all the time.
Which happened before Ronaldo got here. Cavani does press but it's clear the coaching staff isn't coaching what effective pressing is to our players. It doesn't matter who does/doesn't do it when it's not being done as a unit. Bruno running forward waving his arms expecting press when the coaches aren't telling them to do it is a liability. Either it's done as a cohesive plan or isn't done at all. Just randomly throwing a few bodies forward is worse.
The absolute gall of some Solskjaer apologists slating Fernandes and his apparent ill-discipline without the ball when without Fernandes’ majesty these past 18 months or so, Solskjaer would have had his P45 signed, sealed and delivered long ago. Solskjaer can thank his lucky stars the Fernandes transfer worked out the way it did for us as his brilliance papered over a lot of ugly cracks.
Incredible to see him now being cast as scapegoat to protect the very man whose job he’s saved countless times. You genuinely couldn’t make it up.
Incredible to see him now being cast as scapegoat to protect the very man whose job he’s saved countless times. You genuinely couldn’t make it up.
Hes in the 91st percentile for "attempted pressures" for AM's and averages 1.53 tackles pr game which is pretty good for someone who essentially plays as a false 9 a lot of the time. Bruno has a risky risky style means a lot of turnovers, but hes far from a defensive liability
We aren’t a team. We aren’t coached.
Not sure how turning the ball over a lot and being caught out of position after trying to press by yourself doesn't make you a defensive liability but okay.
177 pages says it all.
His coaching/tactical nous is nowhere near the level required for a team to win trophies.
His coaching/tactical nous is nowhere near the level required for a team to win trophies.
Do you prefer him to casually stroll around instead? On our list of defensive issues hes far, far down the list
Sure you could completely wing clip him and ask him to play it super safe LvG style, but that way we are losing one of our most potent attacking threats
Oh I agree the manager and midfield are bigger issues but I just don't see Bruno being a viable option in the future with how he plays and he will. Need to adapt
That I agree that if he does on his own then it is useless. But he is doing it in every match. So either he is not being told not do it or he is deliberately ignoring instructions or the coaching staff has no clue what to do. I feel it is the last one.
Need to adapt to what? Are you saying that he is deliberately ignoring instructions and doing his own thing?
To whatever a future coach demands from him. It is obvious that Solskjaer is not against what he is doing, otherwise he would drop him, but it is just not efficient what he does.
If he really does his own thing and Solskjaer doesn't stop him doing it, than Solskjaer would be much worse than I so far think he is.
But isn't he supposed to be pressing the defensive midfielder in the hole, rather than the centre back or the keeper. He's ending up to far ahead of the play to be effective
There’s a middle ground between every team selection having to feature Bruno Fernandes as roaming, all-action #10 – even when said formation (see the 4-3-3 against Villarreal) cannot really support such a role – and drilling Bruno into becoming a LvG disciple.
We had a great Summer of signings, was'nt it the case we sign a fast competent cb so we could play a higher line, we sign a natural rw to operate in tight spaces so we can break a low block, feck we even got Ronaldo but we have gone backwards, he said he was excited to see Ronaldo and Cavani play together yet replaced them with each other the other week, it's a mess now, great undoing crap from previous managers and building a good squad, he is not brave enough in his conviction to attack like we need to do, barring a top cm the squad is there, just need to be brave and convincing to impress that upon the squad and it appears he does not have that persona to do so.
No real DMC except that wood Fred. One of our worst performers.
Mctominay is just not good enough to be starting for one of the biggest teams in the world. Pogba is not a box to box midfielder and never will be, but somehow Ole expects him to track back and recover balls.
We need a top DMC likes of Rice and we can control games more this way.
I would rest Pogba and Ronaldo for a game or two and start Doni and Rashford.
We are paying Mata hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, and he can bring feckall to the team. We are too static too predictable and without proper dmc teams are bringing games to us
Mctominay is just not good enough to be starting for one of the biggest teams in the world. Pogba is not a box to box midfielder and never will be, but somehow Ole expects him to track back and recover balls.
We need a top DMC likes of Rice and we can control games more this way.
I would rest Pogba and Ronaldo for a game or two and start Doni and Rashford.
We are paying Mata hundreds of thousands of pounds per week, and he can bring feckall to the team. We are too static too predictable and without proper dmc teams are bringing games to us
Think it needs to be said that not every aggressive "running at somebody" equals "pressing". I mean, pressing means it isn't just one player but it is some sort of group and they follow a certain pattern. This is where we fall short. We have no plan, Bruno is aggressively running at people and lamenting that others don't join in isn't us being bad at pressing. We just don't do it very often. And who is supposed to press whom is defined in the plan, if there is no plan, then nobody can violate the plan.
Who are the players whose careers are ruined? What is the actual damage being done?
That is hyperbole. Look, I can imagine what you mean but it is hyperbole to talk about him doing damage when the actual problem is that he isn't delivering the sort of progress we expect or differently said, other managers seem to deliver more than him when given a squad. I don't see any damage being done but we are not progressing which definitely is an issue. An issue that should be engaged by either executing a plan ready for those situations or by creating such a plan. But as long as no actual damage is done (remember last days of Mourinho, he did some damage by splitting the changing room), measures don't have to be driven by urgency but by smart thinking.
The scenario you are talking about, have an interim then take final decision in the summer isn't against my concerns, I could live with that. I want to avoid making an already difficult situation more difficult by forcing ourselves to decide out of the little pool of currently available managers instead of doing a real due dilligence, candidate scouting, interviews if potential visions align and so laying the groundwork for the summer.
My personal opinion is, I don't see the harm of keeping Ole in the job until then, I don't see the need for an interim, it isn't like Ole is ruining us whatsoever. Who would be an interim who is better or promises a better outcome of the season than Ole? And again, I am not bigging up Ole at all but I'd perceive that as an unnecessary sidestep. Be transparent internally to him and maybe to key players that the club is preparing steps for the summer and leave the group as it is. It isn't like we are soooo much worse these days than 1 month ago or 6 month ago. We are just as dull as we are since quite a while, only problem is that the results are now lacking a bit. Obviously this is a problem but this also isn't a new one, last year in January we had a similar streak.
I don't see real chances for a manager to come in halfway through the season and change it to soooo much better. I know, there were times in the past where that happened but it certainly isn't the norm. Maybe, maybe, I could imagine a switch in January coupled with a transfer and a loan or something. But right now, personally I would kind of see it as an act of rashness and desperation. Replace one or two players with work rate, try to be more solid in the middle by making use of a different formation and the results will come back. Sure - this isn't what United should be striving for, going for a few good results. That's where the work in the background comes into play. This season is running, there is no reset button. We have to play with the cards we got and we have to live with the consequences of some decisions.
Last edited:
I know alot of fans won't agree but Conte the man for me. Will be well drilled and play a system we will have identity as a team. He is a winner. He will make sure our midfield will be solid. Will buy a defensive midfielder no doubts about that. 2 years at Chelsea, 1 premier league trophy and 1 Fa Cup. Got inter 1st title in 8 years with some of utds deadwood in his squad.
@NZT-One I agree. While I want Solskjaer gone, the timing of his departure is secondary. What's important is getting the next appointment right, and if it takes some time to choose the right man, that's fine with me.
I'm not bothered about 'saving this season', because I don't think there's that much to be saved. We can't win the league. Even if we got Pep or Klopp right now, they wouldn't be able to close right away the gap to the well-trained top teams in the league. And I won't rush a change for the possibility of winning the Champions League.
I'm not bothered about 'saving this season', because I don't think there's that much to be saved. We can't win the league. Even if we got Pep or Klopp right now, they wouldn't be able to close right away the gap to the well-trained top teams in the league. And I won't rush a change for the possibility of winning the Champions League.
I think the point being made here is that the failure of our press, and the defensive issues that link to it, are not a consequence of Bruno’s efforts but rather a structural issue stemming from a lack of skilled and intelligent coaching.
Oh for sure, I agree with that entirely. I'm just saying having a player go about it on his own is not a good thing either
The point is that most of the things we do are not done as a team. They are a bunch of individual players thrown in together. It is very rare that we move the ball in any sensible way. We have brilliant players who can do brilliant things and they pull us out of trouble a lot of times. But this is not the result of any team work.
I’m not saying you need to rant and rave on bench but sometimes I wonder if players would notice if he nipped home after the game started to watch Corrie if he could do it in time to get back for half time
Watching the game against Leicester I just can’t believe how much Ole has changed his style since he came into the job. When he first came in the tactics are night and day. We used to press high and compact the areas of the pitch.
But yesterday, the space between each line of the team was absolutely massive. There’s was so much space for the likes of Maddison and Tielemans to operate in. I can’t help but think the amount of joy Bruno and Pogba would’ve gotten with that much space.
I think it was away to City either last season or the season before and Ole went out of his way to make the gaps between the lines of defence tiny and it was a bit of a masterclass by him.. but for a long time now he’s just looked clueless, as if he thinks he can just send the players we have out and hope for the best. I don’t have a clue what he works on on the training pitch because tactics are non existent at the moment.
But yesterday, the space between each line of the team was absolutely massive. There’s was so much space for the likes of Maddison and Tielemans to operate in. I can’t help but think the amount of joy Bruno and Pogba would’ve gotten with that much space.
I think it was away to City either last season or the season before and Ole went out of his way to make the gaps between the lines of defence tiny and it was a bit of a masterclass by him.. but for a long time now he’s just looked clueless, as if he thinks he can just send the players we have out and hope for the best. I don’t have a clue what he works on on the training pitch because tactics are non existent at the moment.
This is the thing. To the uneducated, us not having an identity will look like it's a new development, some would even link it to Ronaldo (they already have).
We haven't had a footballing identity on the pitch since Ole got here. He has done some good things, especially with squad building but the lack of identity on the pitch has always been there. People have just attributed it to missing this player or that player.
From the very beginning, I have always said, even with the team missing some big pieces, you should always have a clear grasp of where a team is heading tactically. You saw it with Pep, you saw it with Klopp and you saw it within weeks of Tuchel coming. People forget that both Klopp and Pep still had fairly big holes in their squad when they arrived. Pep was starting Jesus Navas, Nolito, Negredo and co ffs! But you could see what he was trying to do. You could see the principles of his ideas on the pitch, same with Klopp, the same with Tuchel. I am mentioning them because like it or not, that's our competition.
With Ole, as the years have passed, I have failed to see anything. What I have consistently seen is a huge disconnect between how he says he wants the team to play and how we actually play. When he came, he told every Tom, Dick and Harry he was going to make us the hardest pressing team in the land. I took that as wanting us to defend territory and dominating the ball in high areas as much as possible.
As bad as we are out of possession, I feel we are even worse in it. All I have seen in three years is the personnel improve. But the structure, style and cohesion of the team has absolutely not.
He has to go.
Simple as that really. He has to go asap.
A good manager knows how to coach players, the team. Has a strategy, tactics, and a matchplan, has to identify the players, he needs.
Ole is a nice guy, he smiles, but how does he coach his players? Not good, my opinion, but you can argue about it.
His team is not coached well enough. To many ups and downs.
4-2-3-1 - his formation combined with the individual brilliance of his players is his strategy. I do not see anything else. No basic idea to dominate and win. Pressing is more of a phrase, not a finished, well drilled idea.
Tactics and match plans do not really exist. Maybe against better teams Ole has the plan of counter attacking, but it is not well finished.
Ole signings, Sancho has shown near to nothing, VdB does not exist as a player, Ronaldo great player and a great statement, but not what United needed. Verane a solid signing. Carvani great signing. So his signings are not good, but not bad either.
Ole is a nice guy, smiles most of the time, but that is not enough to coach Manchester United. His ideas were good enough to change the face of the team, but his deficits are too big. He will not coach this team or any other to a title in the PL.
Ole is a nice guy, he smiles, but how does he coach his players? Not good, my opinion, but you can argue about it.
His team is not coached well enough. To many ups and downs.
4-2-3-1 - his formation combined with the individual brilliance of his players is his strategy. I do not see anything else. No basic idea to dominate and win. Pressing is more of a phrase, not a finished, well drilled idea.
Tactics and match plans do not really exist. Maybe against better teams Ole has the plan of counter attacking, but it is not well finished.
Ole signings, Sancho has shown near to nothing, VdB does not exist as a player, Ronaldo great player and a great statement, but not what United needed. Verane a solid signing. Carvani great signing. So his signings are not good, but not bad either.
Ole is a nice guy, smiles most of the time, but that is not enough to coach Manchester United. His ideas were good enough to change the face of the team, but his deficits are too big. He will not coach this team or any other to a title in the PL.
If we do get Conte I think people will be surprised at how good our midfield actually is. Especially Fred, who for some reason gets completed lambasted on this forum. People on this forum would love a Fabinho yet fail to mention that Fred kept Fabinho out of the Brazil team the whole Copa America. In fact, all one has to do is look at Freds performance against Uruguay in their last game to see how well Fred performs in a functioning midfield 3 (Something Conte always has as a manager).
Spot on
We obviously don't know what goes behind the scenes, but as much as we all ended up hating Mourinho (because he became toxic) watch this video and ask yourself - can you imagine Ole and his staff explaining game like this to our team and our team being drilled enough to execute the kindof thing he is talking about?
My answers is: astounding NO! I think all they do is practice passes in a circle, some standard situations and that is about it.
My answers is: astounding NO! I think all they do is practice passes in a circle, some standard situations and that is about it.
Very nice. Thank you for sharing. Xavi is very intelligent. He will 1000% be manager of Barca at some point. They are planning for him to be next Pep for them, when he decides he is ready.
But it's also not just about moving pieces on the table, explaining system in theory. The remarkable thing about Jose's video is that he keeps mentioning how his team was very well-drilled to execute his tactics. You can tell me what to do but I won't be able to do any of it
Jose had tactics but also his coaches had his team perfectly coached to make it happen. I have no confidence we can say the same about our team, today.According to the book 'The Special One', by the time he arrived at Real Madrid, he stopped coaching on daily basis. He only concerned himself with big games. His coaching staff did the rest. His players got so frustrated that, during the league winning season, they came up with tactics among themselves. This is the iteration of Mourinho United got. I think Solskjaer is heading for this level of frustration from his players.
I suggest you avoid getting personal with me. Based on what I have read from you, there is nothing to indicate you can recognise a winner even if they paraded in your kitchen, let alone by reading posts from anonymous people in a forum.
Again, go back and read your arguments. One of them is that we should keep Ole in the job because people who work at least 40 hours a week have not yet started evaluating possible replacements. All your arguments are based on the idea that we have a bunch of useless pencil-pushers in the background, who have yet to look into available options, both now and in the summer, their demands, their contracts, etc.
The fact is, nothing is going to change in the summer in terms of availability of suitable managers (Tuchel, Klopp, Guardiola, Rogers, Pochettino... are all tied down and wouldn't coach us anyway. Rogers and Pochettino would consider us, but do we really want them?). So, we are left with Conte, Zidane, and Ten Haag as an exotic choice... two of whom are available now. So, what is the point of waiting and seeing another season flushed down the toilet and waiting for Ronaldo to be a year older?
Saying that Conte is in the mix because he is first and foremost available shows a real lack, a tragic lack of football knowledge. Conte is a top-level manager who's been successful at every job he held. He won the league with Ashley Young and Victor Moses at wing backs. His Italy was amazing to watch and he won the league with Chelsea playing some great football. Granted, he can be defensive, but at least there is a philosophy, a plan behind it and he is clearly a winner (haven't noticed that, have you?) He is volatile, but perhaps this club needs to stop being so nice and impotent - it's led us nowhere and that is definitely not our way.
There are rumours we will switch to a 3-4-1-2 against Atalanta and Liverpool. So, why not bring Conte in who's a specialist in that system rather than allowing Ole, who's only seen it on PES. to play it?
Ok, but the quality of Mou's coaching staff when he arrived was head and shoulders above of who Ole is trusting. It did decline in the following years and Mou himself became bitter and toxic, but at least initially he had professionals!