We are an awfully coached team

VanHaal'sRedArmy

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Has this been proven or just what you think?
Have you seen anything that suggests otherwise? Anyone on that bench you think has the gall to tell Ole off when they don't see the same thing as he does?
 

ray24

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Ole is only still around because he has the luxury of spending tons of money on players. He's just someone that buys his way out of trouble, rather than a coach that makes the team better than the sum of its parts.
 

stw2022

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I'm not as annoyed as others seem to be with last night. Liverpool imploding and 'he used to play for us' though as still the only two real things you could list as a reason why he has the job though.

I do wonder if we'll look back at this period, in years to come, and wonder what we could have achieved under a different manager. Maybe we'll go on to achieve great things under this one. I still think he's learning the job. Learning at the top in England doesn't work. The game is too competitive. Even at our majestic best we weren't Real Madrid in Spain. We couldn't just randomly pick any ex-player to manage us and reasonably expect to win the league. Top management matters in England because it's about far more than 'my XI is better than your XI so obviously we'll win 4-0'
 

CanadianUtd

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Everyone’s got to relax. We were a man down for vast majority of the game. Odds are you lose a game in which you’re down a player in the first half.

…as for “awful coaching”/decision making, anyone who watches the games would know it’s more of a collective than a single person (Ole) calling the shots. You can usually see angles on the bench of Ole and others talking strategies over in game scenarios. Things happen. Especially when you’re short handed a player in a match. It happens.
 

JG3001

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Everyone’s got to relax. We were a man down for vast majority of the game. Odds are you lose a game in which you’re down a player in the first half.

…as for “awful coaching”/decision making, anyone who watches the games would know it’s more of a collective than a single person (Ole) calling the shots. You can usually see angles on the bench of Ole and others talking strategies over in game scenarios. Things happen. Especially when you’re short handed a player in a match. It happens.
Dont worry, plenty of us are just as concerned/critical of his support group as the main man himself…
 

Cnaiür urs Skiötha

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The red card is a poor excuse, we played badly before. Having a front 4 of Ronaldo, Bruno, Pogba, Sancho and creating zero chances is just awful.
Yes we got enough top players to beat anyone and sometimes bang in quite a few, but is the football good? For 95% I would say no.
It seems a bit like with England - a fantastic group of players getting wasted.

I am still not Ole out though, would be ridiculous at this stage. Just saying that with this squad I would expect us dominating and creating much much more.
 

stw2022

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I'm still not sure what we are as a team. What our tactical outlook is. One of the things for me that has worried me for a while (even before he turned up) is that unlike other top sides there's never any consistency in how we play. Other top sides lose and occasionally play poorly but you can usually expect them to try and win the game playing a certain style of football. Their hallmark might be short passes, pressing, defensive play, focus through the middle, rely on wingers....what's ours? We seem to lack that. Often two United performances side by side over the last few years will look like two totally different teams led by two totally different managers, trained and prepared by two completely different coaching staff. You never know what United you're going to get in terms of how we're going to play.

We lack an identity on the pitch. How would you even describe our style of play beyond 'we signed Ronaldo'? That's always been the concerning thing for me, even when we were playing well. Nobody knows if a team will win their next game but the fact none of us, hand on heart, can even begin to pretend we know how we're going to try to, is concerning. It's why I'm reluctant to acknowledge 'progress' that others are because every performance seems so utterly disparate from the last, how can you judge besides being one of those Teletext fans who looks at the result on screen and from that alone deduces: 'Humm, a win, what a good performance I say' or 'A defeat? This is not good enough!'
 
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CanadianUtd

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Dont worry, plenty of us are just as concerned/critical of his support group as the main man himself…
It’s taken 3+ years to get the team to where they are, bringing in new pieces and getting rid of all the dead weight. Look at Ole’s record/winning percentage in his first 100 games compared to managers in all of United’s history — speaks for itself, all while having done that with dreadful squads.

…maybe this is crazy but how about we give him another run with the squad he’s assembled and see how much better he does now.
 

LUC1f3R

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Everyone’s got to relax. We were a man down for vast majority of the game. Odds are you lose a game in which you’re down a player in the first half.


…as for “awful coaching”/decision making, anyone who watches the games would know it’s more of a collective than a single person (Ole) calling the shots. You can usually see angles on the bench of Ole and others talking strategies over in game scenarios. Things happen. Especially when you’re short handed a player in a match. It happens.
1) That's okay if we had played against a really good team. But 10 men against Young Boys should be enough to show a fight.

2) For all his decisions, the subs backfired. Makes me wonder what he was discussing. And his lack of tactical nous keeps getting exposed. Many a times, we were saved by a moment of individual excellence than team play.

I'm sure we will win next few games and we will forget about this for a month. Let's see how we manage through Oct/ Nov fixtures. If we are not challenging the table (2-5 points of the leader at least), Ole has to go.
 

Baneofthegame

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The only thing really that worries me is how we couldn’t keep the ball whatsoever in the second half. Which then got me thinking about whether say, if City had 10 men vs YB would they be dominated so easily.
 

dove

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Everyone’s got to relax. We were a man down for vast majority of the game. Odds are you lose a game in which you’re down a player in the first half.

…as for “awful coaching”/decision making, anyone who watches the games would know it’s more of a collective than a single person (Ole) calling the shots. You can usually see angles on the bench of Ole and others talking strategies over in game scenarios. Things happen. Especially when you’re short handed a player in a match. It happens.
You are missing the point. It's not 1 game. If you watched us the last 3 years, we constantly have subpar performances but many times we manage to escape with a win or at least a draw simply because of the quality of players we have (like against Wolves). We always look like conceding goals and often struggle to create anything. This way of playing will never win us any trophies but some people turn the blind eye to it and think that as long as we are able to scrape points being outplayed- it's fine, but it's just going to take us as far as it did the last couple of years. TOP 4 with no trophies. I don't understand why some people here keep focusing on 1 game. It's been happening for years now and our 4 year trophy draught is not a coincidence or lack of luck or whatever. We haven't been good enough and we still aren't, doesn't matter what players we sign.
 

JG3001

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It’s taken 3+ years to get the team to where they are, bringing in new pieces and getting rid of all the dead weight. Look at Ole’s record/winning percentage in his first 100 games compared to managers in all of United’s history — speaks for itself, all while having done that with dreadful squads.

…maybe this is crazy but how about we give him another run with the squad he’s assembled and see how much better he does now.
Look, we all know this isn’t going to define the season, I expect that we will still qualify, probably have a decent cup run in the knockout competitions, and we will be top 4 come the end of the season. But, based on what I have seen over the past 3 years, I believe that is his limit (and obviously, you are quite welcome to disagree). So it’s a case of playing it safe vs gambling on someone else. The longer we wait, the harder it’s going to be to justify replacing him, as we’ll lose out on manager availability.
 

Godfather

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I'm still dissapointed. Sad to see Ole can't form a team that has any sort of control in football games. Even with a squad like ours. 10 down or not, but we could have at least tried to keep some possession at times with the player material we have. And it's nothing new either. Even in our other games this season we hardly ever looked totally in control.
 

Godfather

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It’s taken 3+ years to get the team to where they are, bringing in new pieces and getting rid of all the dead weight. Look at Ole’s record/winning percentage in his first 100 games compared to managers in all of United’s history — speaks for itself, all while having done that with dreadful squads.

…maybe this is crazy but how about we give him another run with the squad he’s assembled and see how much better he does now.
We still have quite a lot of that. One assisted the winning goal for the opponents yesterday.
 

Mercurial

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Have you seen anything that suggests otherwise? Anyone on that bench you think has the gall to tell Ole off when they don't see the same thing as he does?
I'm not so sure, they are always whispering to eachother and confering when the camera pans to the coaching staff and look quite engaged on whats happening. Chances are just as much that they are just too novice (bar Phelan) on the coaching staff, and give out naive advice or suboptimal suggestions.
 

NZT-One

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I disagree with the underlying premise. The chopping and changing of the squad is not inherent to changing the manager and did not have to happen, it is itself a result of bad management (not by Old of course). I mean, appointing Moyes after Ferguson, LvG after Moyes, and Mourinho after LvG - none of that makes sense in terms of continuity, and that's what caused the constant squad overhauls. (I'm not including the Mourinho-Ole transition here since that one did work out better. But since Ole wasn't initially hired as the permanent new manager, probably not much thinking went into continuity there either.)

Next, I also don't think Ole would have been instrumental in getting these players to join United. He is not an illustrious manager and has not achieved great things. He will have played a (large?) role in the player identification and hiring process, of course, but I would really doubt that big players would have joined United because of Ole in particular.

Also, you don't need these players specifically at United. It's a cool group to have in its current form, but another manager would also have been able to attract big names (probably some of the same), because United are a big club with big money, regardless of the manager. (And to some extent even regardless of performances, as some of the transfers during the worst periods of the past few years have shown.)

Finally, firing Ole wouldn't have to lead to another squad overhaul if United would do a good job with the selection process, and made sure to hire someone that can build on what Ole has been working towards, and agreed that the current squad is in good shape to continue that work. For example, hiring a manager focused on possession or pressing would make little sense. Of course though, as I said,.United had had an awful recent track record hiring coaches with an eye on continuity. So in that sense, if they would get that completely wrong once again, you're right that you'd be in for another squad overhaul that would set you back a few years again...
Very good post. Very well formulated and a very good point, that some people seem to ignore. It isn't a law of nature, that we have to duplicate the mistakes done in the past. Switching a manager doesn't have to be such a cataclysmic event, that sets everything back to square one. Sure, it can absolutely happen but it is close to worst possible scenario and that is certainly just as unlikely as the very best thinkable outcome like we have seen it with Tuchel in Chelsea. All in all, I am still behind the manager because he is putting the bar pretty high overall for me. But I would also say, that the club would make a mistake if he is not well prepared for a situation where a switch might be needed.

(on a more fantastical tone: heck for me Ole can stay where he is until eternity, if his effects are so positive, if we find Roles for Carrick, Fletcher, seemingly Mata and Grant, why not for Ole as well. )

Point out the team are badly coached when we lose and we're accused of jumping on Ole. Point it out when we win and we're accused of being miserable/spoiled. When is it actually acceptable to point out evident flaws in the team? Because these aren't issues that only appear when we lose games, they're consistent and they're glaring, unless you have your head buried in the sand or don't understand what's actually happening in the games you're watching.

We don't need to wait until the end of the season to judge whether we're badly coached, we've been watching United under Ole for years at this point. We can see when even poor players are well/badly coached too, so the notion that he needed better players before we could judge him in this regard was always nonsense.
I agree with that statement, I would adjust it though because with one adjustment, it creates way less resistance while staying correct nonetheless: switch badly coached with not as good coached as some of our competitors.
 

Sviken

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This is madness.

1. The team clearly has a system. If you can't see that, then I can't help you, but there is definitely a system.

2. You're absolutely right, it is the bare minimum, but something that the so-called bigger names of LVG and Mou were unable to do consistently.
Has Ole really been a better manager than Mourinho? Really? What he have to show for it? I know we like to shit on Mourinho because he was toxic and I agree with that statement, but as far as results, Mourinho has been far better than Ole, let's be fair. He won us a double (the only trophy that we were missing and completed our trophy haul) and he achieved second place with a much worse squad and higher points total. Pretty sure he would have won the league if he had this squad last year. So what has Ole done to deserve this credit that he has been better than Mou? He smiles a lot during press conferences? Give me a break. At best you could say he has been better than van Gaal (a has been) and Moyes (who never deserved to be a United manager in the first place) which are both bottom of the barrell in terms of appointments. Not really that much of an accomplishment.
 
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Litch

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No Ole agenda but it's a result business. If he goes out of the CL, can't see how he recovers from that.
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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We have a coaching staff full of 'yes' men. No one really has a say against what Ole thinks he should do.
How you think people like carrick walked into the job. He is one constant in 3-4 management failures. But he is still there in the dugout. Guess who will snap him up in case he loses the job tomorrow. Also, have you noticed how our set pieces improved since that chelsea coach? The club needs to be a bit more ruthless regarding who gets the job. Thats why clubs like chelsea dont go 10 years without a major trophy. Its not like we don't spend you know?
 

Eriku

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Well @Eriku, would you like to have a go, don't think I can word it as well as you.

I think they have their badges, they passed tests or some sort of training and therefore must be of good standard. All professional coaches are good coaches.
I’d say a team that’s done 3rd and 2nd place in the EPL, made semis and finals, and gone on the longest unbeaten streak, is certainly not badly coached.

Are they merely good and therefore not good enough for an elite club? Possibly. Like I’ve said, it’s the ridiculous hyperbole I react to. We clearly don’t have bad or mediocre coaches. Football is highly competitive and you don’t see consistent progress without good coaches.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Simple, Ole as DoF. Then bring in a coach who can actually coach, and who will focus on coaching.
I’d be completely fine with that. He’s done a pretty good job with recruitment, but he’s never a top coach.

People on this forum think I hate the guy, but he’s done a good job at building a squad. We just need a proper coach now. Do people think he is going to all of a sudden figure it out? We have had 3 years of him. We know what he offers, and sadly it’s not enough to challenge for titles, so move him upstairs.
 

Anustart89

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Imagine if Ole’s contract situation hadn’t been sorted already. The insecurity among the players probably would’ve made us lose the game 6-1 instead.
 

Sly

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Has Ole really been a better manager than Mourinho? Really? What he have to show for it? I know we like to shit on Mourinho because he was toxic and I agree with that statement, but as far as results, Mourinho has been far better than Ole, let's be fair. He won us a double (the only trophy that we were missing and completed our trophy haul) and he achieved second place with a much worse squad and higher points total. Pretty sure he would have won the league if he had this squad last year. So what has Ole done to deserve this credit that he has been better than Mou? He smiles a lot during press conferences? Give me a break. At best you could say he has been better than van Gaal (a has been) and Moyes (who never deserved to be a United manager in the first place) which are both bottom of the barrell in terms of appointments. Not really that much of an accomplishment.
Good post. There are always excuses for Ole. I understand the simpathy due to the player past and achievements at the club but he's a poor manager with a mediocre historial. Some of the tactical decisions are baffling and he keeps being outwitted by opposing managers. He's just riding the coattails of the players. The performance was embarrassing. United won't win the League or the CL with Ole. No chance.
 

lex talionis

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You need a squad to win trophies. If you rely on the same 11,12,13 players to win you games you might win a trophy.. but you won’t win the league. Is it the players fault they aren’t up to the required level or Oles fault for not having them up to the required standard and preparedness? I say it’s equal blame actually.

As for Ole, you can like a person and you can want them to succeed but sometimes you just have to admit that in order to progress further a change needs to be made. He has taken you guys as far as he can. Admittedly further than most people thought he could. But he continues to make the same mistakes. In order to reach that next level you need a manager that can evolve with his team and he really isn’t showing signs of doing that.
An excellent post. But let’s be sure what it is that’s being debated here.

Are we debating whether Ole is primarily responsible for last night’s defeat? Or whether he’s capable of managing United to its next PL or CL trophy?

If it’s the former, we were moments away from a 1-1 draw most of us would have taken under the circumstances. Two players lost their head and we lost the game. Bringing on Lingard was a mistake, I completely agree, but who among us looks at Lingard as a footballer who is likely to concede the match winner in stoppage time? Not many. As ridiculous as Lingard is as a player who craves fame above all else (at least well out of proportion to his ability), no one would have suspected that he’d make that colossal of a mistake.

If it’s the latter, I share the same concerns many have expressed here. But it’s just too easy to have a go at Ole over a genuine concern after an incident in which two players who should have known better put in shambolic performances.
 

Nicoseth

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I agree with this we do have a system. Unfortunately the system we are employing are not good enough.
IMO, we are playing very similar to Fergie early title winning teams. Very quick transition with getting the ball to your attacking players as soon as possible with emphasis on the wings. This is why his system works wonder when we're playing against team who attack us, since we can employ that system. But matches with low block teams, or European teams who valued possession, against teams who would need us to control possession and being creative with that. That's where we struggled

Ole doing better than previous manager is great, but at United we need to keep improving. If this team can't improve further, then questions must be asked to the manager

Ole did well in the man management stuff, but you don't become a great manager by just great at managing the players ego. The in game management and tactics coaching is also important
Agree, mate! we need to keep improving. Last night was a shit-show, but I think we're on the right track.
 

bond19821982

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Has Ole really been a better manager than Mourinho? Really? What he have to show for it? I know we like to shit on Mourinho because he was toxic and I agree with that statement, but as far as results, Mourinho has been far better than Ole, let's be fair. He won us a double (the only trophy that we were missing and completed our trophy haul) and he achieved second place with a much worse squad and higher points total. Pretty sure he would have won the league if he had this squad last year. So what has Ole done to deserve this credit that he has been better than Mou? He smiles a lot during press conferences? Give me a break. At best you could say he has been better than van Gaal (a has been) and Moyes (who never deserved to be a United manager in the first place) which are both bottom of the barrell in terms of appointments. Not really that much of an accomplishment.
Exactly. He may continue to get us top 4 but not because of his talent but rather because of player talent . To secure a trophy, you need a better plan or coach or whatever you call it.

People say we lost because of a red yesterday. Man , we were crap even before red. As usual, we got bailed out by our brilliant individual play. I have no issues in losing a match but show something ffs. Red or not, against YBs 45 mins parking the bus when you have Ronaldo, Bruno, Pogba,Sancho is criminal. Should just be sacked just for that.
 

Marwood

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Main problem is our passing game. It's poor and hasn't improved since Ole arrived.

Yeah an individual mistake ultimately cost us last night but the inability to just string passes together to take the sting out of it was the real problem.

I see a lot saying Ole is old fashioned and football has moved on. Nothing to do with that. Not keeping the ball leads to bad results but that was the case 10 years ago. It was the case 20 years ago. In any era you have to be able to pass and move.
 

Pretzels81

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We are.

I just hope CR finally makes clear for everyone that Ole is a "just pick 11 players" nothing manager.

If he starts a civil war in the dressing room, so be it. He already was instrumental in bringing down Pellegrini and Benitez during his Real days.

Imagine this fine squad (our best since 12-13, and probably better) managed by the likes of Tuchel or Nagelsmann. PL title + UCL semis guaranteed.
 

PoTMS

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I just hope one day soon we get a proper coach in to manage these exceptional group of players. Ole is not that guy. Him as Director of Football on the other hand would suit him down to the ground.
 

NinjaZombie

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Ole needs his Carlos Queiroz. Of course, the alternative would be to get a head coach in an arrangement similar to what Tuschel does for Chelsea but I don't think that's the way they wanna do things at United. So something similar would be to have Ole's strengths, which is man management and squad building, being supplemented by someone who has good ideas on how to play on the field and can implement them.
 

House Mkhitaryan

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He's coaching as if it's 2001 and he thinks he's SAF. Times have changed and soccer tactics have evolved. What worked when SAF coached Ole doesn't work now. Just look at Mourinho's fall to see evidence of this. If SAF still was manager, he would have evolved.. but Ole's managerial tactics are stuck in the past. He has no new ideas and has not learned anything from modern coaches. He's doomed to fail, just doesn't have it in him.
 

Amir

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Ole needs his Carlos Queiroz.
No.

I'm a big fan of Queiroz's work with us, but looking at what he's done before and after United - or what Fergie's other assistants did after United - is a great reminder that while they supplemented what we had, it worked because they were a cog in Alex Ferguson's club. It worked because they worked for Fergie.

Fergie might not have been the best football tactician in the world, but he was no slouch. If your manager isn't good enough in the core of the game, you can't get away from that no matter who you hire to help him.

Your assistant would not be the one making subs for you. And if you just did everything he suggested, then why are you the manager?
 

OleTheGreat

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The red card is a poor excuse, we played badly before. Having a front 4 of Ronaldo, Bruno, Pogba, Sancho and creating zero chances is just awful.
Yes we got enough top players to beat anyone and sometimes bang in quite a few, but is the football good? For 95% I would say no.
It seems a bit like with England - a fantastic group of players getting wasted.

I am still not Ole out though, would be ridiculous at this stage. Just saying that with this squad I would expect us dominating and creating much much more.
For once there is someone here who totally agrees and thinks the way I do. I have watched football for a long long time and I for one thinks that this group of players have no idea what their position is. They keep changing every match and they get lost every time. People seem to think that if we brought good players, it will all work out but that's not it, is it? We need to work hard in training to put the pieces where they belong. We need put players in a positions and train them to work around the defensive shape but what does Ole do. He does general training and one the day he picks the team he puts players based on how they trained physically but has no idea how good they are tactically. For example, let us talk about Pogba.. one day he plays a deeper role in a pivot and the next he's a winger but in actuality he's not good in either positions. We brought Sancho in because he's the best damn right winger available but what does Ole do, he plays him on the left and plays Greenwood on the right. There is no pattern of play or smooth transition because nobody in this team has any idea of their position and slots they need to be in and cover. This is just a team that runs around and passes the ball every time by looking up and finding someone which is too slow and easy for the opponents to read. For heaven's sake Ole needs to make up his mind and at least play 80% of the team together in the same position all the time or else stop asking for too much from players because I've had enough. Even Championship teams play smoother football than we do. We have a wealth of talent who are clueless because of the way they are play week in week out. I agree that they are all professionals and these days players are more versatile to the positions and will cover for one another but that is not how it works on the long run and if they do not know their place, they will definitely not learn the traits of their colleagues let alone play around the defense.

De Gea
AWB Varane Maguire Shaw
Mctominay
Bruno Pogba
Sancho Ronaldo/Greenwood Martial/Rashford

Play this team week in week out and they'll all learn a thing or two about the runs people will make and the things one needs to do to move the ball up field. Or keep doing the same shit over and over again and ultimately get sacked because we might win many due to individual abilities but we won't win the big ones because bigger teams play a certain way and they know what exactly to do.
 

Nicoseth

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Has Ole really been a better manager than Mourinho? Really? What he have to show for it? I know we like to shit on Mourinho because he was toxic and I agree with that statement, but as far as results, Mourinho has been far better than Ole, let's be fair. He won us a double (the only trophy that we were missing and completed our trophy haul) and he achieved second place with a much worse squad and higher points total. Pretty sure he would have won the league if he had this squad last year. So what has Ole done to deserve this credit that he has been better than Mou? He smiles a lot during press conferences? Give me a break. At best you could say he has been better than van Gaal (a has been) and Moyes (who never deserved to be a United manager in the first place) which are both bottom of the barrell in terms of appointments. Not really that much of an accomplishment.
People on here really have short memories. Mourinho may have got more points in a season than Ole but he was equally miles off city and the football was dire most of the time - way worse than under Ole. As for winning 'a double' - the Carabao Cup and EL are hardly a double to be particularly proud of. Our football has been way more entertaining than under JM and look at the squad now compared to how Mou left it. Night and day. Time will of course decide the fate of Ole and last night was terrible, but as a fanbase we need to quit the reactionary BS and support the team and coaching staff. I am in full support of Ole but he has to deliver this season - no doubt. If he hasn't done that by the end of the season then it's time to talk about a change. Not when we're top of the league.
 

AneRu

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An excellent post. But let’s be sure what it is that’s being debated here.

Are we debating whether Ole is primarily responsible for last night’s defeat? Or whether he’s capable of managing United to its next PL or CL trophy?

If it’s the former, we were moments away from a 1-1 draw most of us would have taken under the circumstances. Two players lost their head and we lost the game. Bringing on Lingard was a mistake, I completely agree, but who among us looks at Lingard as a footballer who is likely to concede the match winner in stoppage time? Not many. As ridiculous as Lingard is as a player who craves fame above all else (at least well out of proportion to his ability), no one would have suspected that he’d make that colossal of a mistake.

If it’s the latter, I share the same concerns many have expressed here. But it’s just too easy to have a go at Ole over a genuine concern after an incident in which two players who should have known better put in shambolic performances.
The issue here is that this isn't the first time these players have let us down but here we are three years into a rebuild and still blaming defeats on players we knew to be unreliable. This is the issue with keeping deadwood or giving too many chances to unreliable players, you can never really move up a level as long as you have the likes of Fred, Lingard, Lindelof, Mata and Jones being one or two injuries/suspension away from playing key roles. We are just too soft on average players.