The guy said nothing wrong.
Get off your high horse. I hate to break it to you but your way of supporting the club isn't certificated as the role model for every other United fan.
We are an awfully coached team
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Get off your high horse. I hate to break it to you but your way of supporting the club isn't certificated as the role model for every other United fan.
Don’t always agree with you but this is very very true. For all the crap we give city about 60 million subs. I wouldn’t say the likes of Dias, Mahrez, Rodri, Cancelo, Fabinho, Salah, Mane, Robertson were at a world class level before they joined city and Liverpool.
I don’t remember there being a massive clamour on here to sign these players as for instance it is for Sancho, Haaland etc.
If he can't find anything positive about Ole and staff then, yes, he has problems beyond just supporting the club. And to state unequivocally that Ole and staff can't win any major titles is pretty stupid. Do you agree with him?
We didn't learn our lessons last night. If you listened to Klopps post match interview he alluded to a process of solving the problems we caused Liverpool, it took 15-20mins. I wonder how much of this done by the players and how much by Klopp?
Then I wonder how much of this we do. Thinking about the absolute commitment to playing out from the back with McFred stood level with their forward line and it not only not working but actually costing goals.
Ole needs to be more dynamic during the game especially with a young team. He seems to only 'solve problems' at half time only it appears.
Then I wonder how much of this we do. Thinking about the absolute commitment to playing out from the back with McFred stood level with their forward line and it not only not working but actually costing goals.
Ole needs to be more dynamic during the game especially with a young team. He seems to only 'solve problems' at half time only it appears.
No he didn't say that. He said that can't trust them to win major titles against Pep and Klopp, which is his fair opinion. To respond to this by telling him to just go support another club is a ridiculously arrogant way of thinking of your ways of supporting the club and your beliefs. Just a terrible response that instead of trying to discuss why he can't trust the coaching stuff to win major titles, makes you act as the role model for United fans and the one who judges if people are supporting their club in the right way or not.
Agree, Pep and Klopp really set a bar higher since joining EPL. Their systems are very well drilled and I wouldn't put this down completely to Ole as he claimed not to be leading trainings. It appears that the coaching staff is not as competent as we wish. It's all about systems and then identifying the right players to fit in. Collective will always make individuals in the most important positions flourish, if they are all up to the task of course. We can argue about the quality of players they brought and we brought, but it is no coincidence that all of the sudden Robertson and TAA became one of the best full-backs or KDB and Silva most creative midfielders. Saying that, we can also argue about our setup helping Bruno's number, but we are far from a possession-style "drilled" team.
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These posts are excellent, IMO, and I wholeheartedly agree with both (and have come to similar conclusions myself, despite trying and hoping not to, months ago).
Solskjaer will not get another Premier League gig when the inevitable happens here (or at least he’ll count himself extremely fortunate to do so if he does) yet we have sycophants here who ridicule and gaslight posters in their echo-chamber threads for calling out the distinct ‘averageness’ of our coaching and our playing style and try to claim Solskjaer is doing as good a job as anyone in the world could possibly do.
It’s like the twilight zone. You genuinely could not make it up.
Very fair point and one which needs to be respected.
Appreciating that, however, and also thinking the manager can be upgraded upon are two distinctly different things, it must also be pointed out.
You didn't answer the question. Do you agree with his sentiment?
And you're dodging the main point of my reply to a completely different one ? Why does my opinion on his sentiment matter ? So that you make sure I'm supporting the club the right way or should go root for another club like him ?
The point is he just said he can't trust the current coaching stuff to win titles against Pep and Klopp. He didn't say "they can't", he just said he doesn't have faith in them. What's the problem in this post to just so arrogantly tell him to go and root for another club as if you're the ultimate United fan role model ?
These kind of posts make the forum just more unhealthy as a platform of discussion.
Its unfortunate really, specially when Chelsea has proven time and again there really is no reason to NOT make a managerial change when things aren't working.
For now, I think Ole deserves another season but I will say he has shown little to suggest he can get solve the Pep/Klopp problem to a PL title.
I posted this before:
Let's look closer at transfers from 14/15 to 17/18. These are bought players who contribute today in a meaningful way for each club.
MU: Shaw, Martial, Pogba, Bailly, Lindelof
MC: Walker, Silva, Ederson, Stones, Gundogan, KDB, Sterling (Silva is not there anymore but he was a great acquisition for years)
Liv: VVD, Salah, Robertson, Mane, Wihnaldum, Matip, Firmino, Milner, Lovren
I highlighted the attacking players. Can you see the difference in quality that City and Liv have recruited when compared to United? In fact, one could argue the difference is about 20 to 30% in their favor. They are better because they have better players and they have better players because their transfers were much better. We all can list the numerous transfer failures we have had. To say it's all the brilliant coaching is just not true.
Since Ole the gap in talent has closed and the table represents this. We still need a few more really good players to fully close the gap and truly compete and maybe this summer it will happen.
Also, you make it sound like all City and Liverpool transfers thrive and there are no failures. We know that is not true.
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Like clockwork. Lose one or two games (where everyone knows there was no training between games and we had nothing to play for) and this thread is active again.
People go to the extreme about the alleged bad coaching.
I could also go to the extreme and claim anyone who gets top 4 twice in a row with a midfield of McFred is a genius coach.
Ole didn’t even recruit them. So it’s not like you can say he chose them so he knew what skills he was getting.
His big signings are working really well so far. Maguire and Bruno are among our best players and AWB has also done well and is improving.
The way I see it for all the good players we have (and we do have some very good ones) our midfield is not balanced and not good enough.
And our attack while very good and talented is also unbalanced. We have 4 talented strikers (Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood) and no actual quality winger.
DM and RW are therefore not luxury signings but signings which are absolutely required and which would take our game to another level.
People go to the extreme about the alleged bad coaching.
I could also go to the extreme and claim anyone who gets top 4 twice in a row with a midfield of McFred is a genius coach.
Ole didn’t even recruit them. So it’s not like you can say he chose them so he knew what skills he was getting.
His big signings are working really well so far. Maguire and Bruno are among our best players and AWB has also done well and is improving.
The way I see it for all the good players we have (and we do have some very good ones) our midfield is not balanced and not good enough.
And our attack while very good and talented is also unbalanced. We have 4 talented strikers (Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood) and no actual quality winger.
DM and RW are therefore not luxury signings but signings which are absolutely required and which would take our game to another level.
The Liverpool high press was a problem last night though. Yet we stuck to our strategy of playing out from defence slavishly. There seemed to be no adjustment, no realisation that it was not working.
Like playing Rashford on the right. How often does that have to fail before the penny drops?
Re McTom & Fred you might get away with one of them but not the two together. Not against top sides.
We have a top center forward in Cavani up against 2 raw ceterbacks last night but we hardly got the ball to him.
A sorry state of affairs.
Well said, fully agreed.
That is just revisionism. Of the two you bolded for us, both of them been voted the best young player in the world. Two Golden Ball winners. One of them was the most expensive player in the world, the other was the most expensive teenager in the world. Yet you are trying to tell me that the players that Liverpool bought from Southampton and Roma are 20-30% better. Which is nonsense. The likes of Firmino was linked to United, to much dismay at the time. These were not world class players, and were not more highly regarded than what we have signed. At the time of signing.
Liverpool signed Robertson from Hull, United always do it big - we made Luke Shaw the most expensive teenager and most expensive defender, yet it took about 4/5 years to get a proper tune. We are absolutely NOT signing inferior players. Of the players that we have signed, the likes of Fred, Maguire, Bailly and Sanchez were even wanted by City. They almost certainly would have fared better there.
It's a forum where people can voice their opinion.
If you don't like my opinion, you can put me on the ignore list.
In fact, I hope you do, so you don't continue to respond with such utter drivel.
As a number of people have commented on in this post, we do have a serious problem in successfully dealing with balls played high in to our penalty area, either from corner kicks or free kicks.
Now this is either a coaching problem whereby our coaching team cannot resolve the problem by adopting / coaching set drills for high balls played into the penalty area be that man marking or zone defending or it is a player problem whereby our players are not responding to training and coaching advice, or maybe they do not know / understand what is required of them.
I have read that our manager has stated that he does not take the lead role on coaching/training, in that case he needs to start looking at who is taking the training sessions and what they are focusing on. At the end of the day the teams set up and performance are his responsibilities as are those of his coaching team and after nearly a full season where we appear to be making the same basic mistakes in defending high balls something is seriously wrong with our training coaching approach to these problems.
Now this is either a coaching problem whereby our coaching team cannot resolve the problem by adopting / coaching set drills for high balls played into the penalty area be that man marking or zone defending or it is a player problem whereby our players are not responding to training and coaching advice, or maybe they do not know / understand what is required of them.
I have read that our manager has stated that he does not take the lead role on coaching/training, in that case he needs to start looking at who is taking the training sessions and what they are focusing on. At the end of the day the teams set up and performance are his responsibilities as are those of his coaching team and after nearly a full season where we appear to be making the same basic mistakes in defending high balls something is seriously wrong with our training coaching approach to these problems.
Ole is only blamed because he is in charge. He hires and fires the coaching staff. They train according to the way he wants the team to play.
I am not calling him to be sacked. He sure deserve another season. But I also don't have faith in him winning the PL or CL. The competition is going to be much higher next season.
I am not calling him to be sacked. He sure deserve another season. But I also don't have faith in him winning the PL or CL. The competition is going to be much higher next season.
Exactly.
Pretty much no one batted an eye when Liverpool signed Mane, Salah and Firmino.
Our complete inability to play more than the sum of our parts by a good amount has always been the biggest problem post Fergie.
I mean you would think United fans would know more than anyone how much a manager can elevate a team.
We're going to get nowhere if the only answer is just to 'sign X, Y and Z' for various positions.
That said, I think the truth is in the middle from the OP. I don't think we're awfully coached, but I don't think we're extremely well coached either. We've top 4 locked up(in all likelihood) for sure under the current coaching staff. I don't think they can get us to that next level though and they've shown nothing to me that indicates they can.
Yes we maybe not an awfully coached team but when you take out the individual brilliant players and compare how most of the top other teams play we are not well coached. Maybe Arsenal is worse than us if you compare but the other top teams play better as a team most of the time. Maybe in Liverpool or City or even at Chelsea, players like Rashford would not get the opportunity to keep on running into 4 or 5 defenders day in and day out even if he does put in the occasional cross or score important goals.
Surely we can get a better midfield than McTominay and Fred to play in midfield for Manchester United?
I'm not sure this is the right thread since I don't think coaching is a big issue - but has anyone else noticed that sometimes this team just collectively sh*ts the bed for 5-10 mins in the games we lose?
Highlights I can think of from this season:
- Roma 2nd leg when De Gea had to make 3 world class saves to keep us from nearly blowing a 4 goal lead
- Leipzig away match in the CL group stages where we were wide open in the first 10 mins that ultimately knocked us out of the CL
- Spurs 6-1 at OT, just after bruno scored we fell apart for 10 mins and spurs scored 2. We grew back into the game and then martial was sent off around the 30th min and spurs scored another 2.
- Everton 3-3 at OT, came out cruising 2-0 at half time, then Everton scored 2 within 10 mins.
- The match we just had against liverpool, our pen gets denied then they score 2 in 10 mins again just before HT
There are more that I can't remember right now, but it's a common theme I've noticed that when we lose or drop points you can always look to a 5-10 min period in the game where it looks like we completely forget how to defend
Highlights I can think of from this season:
- Roma 2nd leg when De Gea had to make 3 world class saves to keep us from nearly blowing a 4 goal lead
- Leipzig away match in the CL group stages where we were wide open in the first 10 mins that ultimately knocked us out of the CL
- Spurs 6-1 at OT, just after bruno scored we fell apart for 10 mins and spurs scored 2. We grew back into the game and then martial was sent off around the 30th min and spurs scored another 2.
- Everton 3-3 at OT, came out cruising 2-0 at half time, then Everton scored 2 within 10 mins.
- The match we just had against liverpool, our pen gets denied then they score 2 in 10 mins again just before HT
There are more that I can't remember right now, but it's a common theme I've noticed that when we lose or drop points you can always look to a 5-10 min period in the game where it looks like we completely forget how to defend
Those sides get who they want. Ole gets fecked around and is given VDB. Not listening to Ole last summer was criminal quite frankly.
Just look at our side, its Joses players plus Maguire, AWB, Bruno and Cavani. Who are our most important players? Those plus Shaw. Hell Ole is bringing through Mason who is fast becoming our most important striker. He had Haaland in the bag before the club went cold on him. The one thing we cant blame Ole for is bringing in inferior players or not getting the best out of players that he wants us to sign. We just need to sign more of them. Our first choice front 3 didnt cost us a penny for Christs sake and thats where the expensive players should be playing yet no Sancho. Thats horrendous
I think this is a really good post. Very good points made (amongst a number of very good posts being made on here...)
I'd agree with that. My fear has been, and still is, that because we've hired a legendary player to manage us, we won't ever see a fitting time to take that next step. Other clubs have sacked managers that have won the league for them, because they can see the natural path to being the best.
Some really good posts and I agree with Rozay completely. The irony of it all is we experienced it for 20 plus years. Opposition fans would shit on the Nevilles and fletcher of the world. But they'd play magnificently for us and we'd keep winning trophies. For the first ten plus years of the Premier I believe we had a lower net spend than Liverpool. We are making the exact same mistake the dippers did all those years ago. They won feck all with Souness a Goat player for them. The three periods of success they've had since I've been watching football are under Houllier, Benitez and Klopp. All widely recognized as top managers before they came to Liverpool.
Surely you are not serious in saying Liverpool gets who they want? They absolutely don't. (Not even true for City).
Rozay just put the nail on the head with this one. This is why we won't win PL or CL with Ole, regardless if we sign Sancho or not.
I can relate to that fear. But to be honest, I don't think, the outlook of that is all too dark. I think at least the two of us (plus a fair few others) agree, that we want the Manager of Manchester United to be as proactive in terms of output maximization of the squad as possible. Be that in getting the "missing" pieces to have our team play to their best from transfers, academy what ever, be that in adjusting the way we play to fit the current players and their respective strength & weaknesses. We ask for evolution of the team into a strong title winning team and squad and we think, that this evolution can be accelarated by the manager in tweaking tactics, formations, lineups and providing some sort of underlying structure tactic wise to support players in certain situations.
I think, this evolution can also happen without the managers direct influence. I'd say, even Fergies approach to that was more of the puppet master who was able to select the right characters and then trusted them to organize and improvise. We've seen Shaw building a good partnership with Rashford last season, we've seen a few glimpses of his interplay with Bruno, Pogba and Cavani. So this evolution will also take place organically as long as the players keep playing together. So there is definitely a good chance,that we will increase the quality of football by Ole "just" providing a trustful environment where players are encouraged to take risks and express themselves. (Granted, the better a player is, the better he deals with freedom and improvisation)
Unfortunately we don't know, how SAF would fare these days as the methodogical approach (tweaking details, having pre-determined team moves, team pressing) is (on this level) a relatively new thing (last 10 years). This is would be interesting to know because it would help to foresee what might happen to us. I wouldn't settle for a manager who is worse than Ole in terms of emotional intelligence and man managing. This seems to be some real strengths he has but at the end of the day, football is a fast business, accelerating things is key to maximize output. We have a few players who can deal with the freedom, they seemingly get. But I think, we have just as much, who would flourish by taking some of the burden (the freedom) away. Developing a team just by transfers isn't a sustainable way, so much can go wrong with transfers, it should never be the main driver for development.-
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He would have got quality coaches who can handle it as he always has done. If they didn't play accordingly he would be on the touchline barking instructions. Do you remember him swearing at Evans on the touchline? By the way it's not new about the pressing. I have seen Ajax and the Dutch team in the 70s do the exact thing. It's where Pep got it from too.
The Soviet coach Lobonovasky also did it. Yes in the English League it is a new thing.
I didn't want to create the impression, that pressing would be a new thing. I know it has been around for quite some time. What I meant with "new approach" is the structured approach to creating a system and squad. Systems with certain roles and responsibilities, where players get selected based on their skillset. The "more than the sum of its parts", there were a few managers around, who had that approach already (LVG, Michels, Bielsa) but there were mostly exceptions, the majority of managers firstly tried to base the system on the available players. For the record, I don't want to create the impression, that one thing is better or worse than the other. They are just different but you cannot completely ignore trends like that. As long as we want to bring in great players via transfer, we have to keep our methods up-to-date if only to make sure, new players aren't overly shocked by what is expected from them. And this kind of is my feeling when I have a look at the transfers of the last years. A few great players but a lot of them weren't able to reproduce their magic for us... It is worth to learn everything about potential reasons for that.
I do not trust Ole to win the prem while Pep, Klopp and now Tuchel are around. If no big injuries happen next season, I can see those three managers finishing above United. I have no doubt Pep is a far superior manager compared to Ole, I would put Klopp above him as well. Tuchel is very likely to improve Chelsea. Next season will be much more difficult for our manager than the current one.
Depends who we sign. Ole has proven he can live with these managers.
My issue is that we're so undefinable, and not in a particularly good way. How would you describe us? There's no real focus in what we do it just...happens. We're not attacking, we don't press through the middle, we aren't expert with the ball out-wide. It might be unfair given our league position and the fact we're in the Europa League final but despite that I still see absolutely no identity to anything we do. We need to develop a style of play, an identity. 'Let's hope we claw it back in second half' is what great teams will need to do occasionally, it isn't the hallmark of a great team
I think you are saying if Martial had been coached by Pep or Klopp instead of Mourinho and Ole than he would be just as good as Mane, Saleh, KDB or Sterling. Really?
Would Fred be as good as Wihnaldum? Would Bailly be as good as Stones?
It's clear to me that lack of good recruitment is the main reason we are behind City and Liverpool, not coaching. Let's look again and concentrate on the numbers. From the period of transfers from 14/15 to 17/18 we have 3 players who start and contribute significantly. City and Liverpool both have 6. That's 100% better.
MU: Shaw, Martial, Pogba, Bailly, Lindelof
MC: Walker, Silva, Ederson, Stones, Gundogan, KDB, Sterling (Silva is not there anymore but he was a great acquisition for years)
Liv: VVD, Salah, Robertson, Mane, Wihnaldum, Matip, Firmino, Milner, Lovren
The attacking players over the same period that did not make at United were Depay, Mikhi and Lukaku. It's clear Mikhi was a mistake and not poor coaching. After all, he failed at Arsenal and didn't look like anything special with Roma. Just imagine if Depay, Martial and Mikhi had become as good as any 3 of Gundogan, KDB, Sterling, Saleh, Mane and Firmino. We would probably be challenging for serious titles with Ole or almost any other good (not great) coach.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings.
Not a very good example as Salah, KDB were coached by Jose. If anyone thinks Ole is a better coach than Pep he is living in cuckoo land.
Every player who flops is bought by Woodward and everyone who succeeded was bought by Ole.
Does anyone seriously believe that Pep is going to play Rashford day in and day out if he keeps running into the cluster of defenders all the time, without passing to his teammates who are in a better position?
The fact that Ole is not looking to upgrade Fred and McTominay shows that he can't play out from the back but he keeps still trying it because he thinks it's fashionable.
Every player who flops is bought by Woodward and everyone who succeeded was bought by Ole.
Does anyone seriously believe that Pep is going to play Rashford day in and day out if he keeps running into the cluster of defenders all the time, without passing to his teammates who are in a better position?
The fact that Ole is not looking to upgrade Fred and McTominay shows that he can't play out from the back but he keeps still trying it because he thinks it's fashionable.
The truth is the Ole Out brigade will never be even slightly content with Ole managing us, he has to go unbeaten for 20 games in a row to get slight praise, he only needs to lose or draw a couple of games to deserve the sack.
Again, you have repeated what you have said easily, which is a convenient assessment of how things have gone on reflection.
I’ll repeat, the players we have signed and the players they have signed have been of a similar calibre. In the same period you have highlighted, you will struggle to name any player who has improved or even simply not regressed from the player they were before we signed them.
Players like Salah, Wijnaldum, Firmino, Robertson were laughed off when signed for Liverpool, for example. They had neither established themselves as either top class players or top class talents. You turning around and saying we have had ‘terrible recruitment’ for bringing in World Cup winners, Golden Ball winners, transfer record holders is convenient, but you almost certainly were not clamouring for us to sign Salah from Roma, nor were the fans of any other top club. That is because he was simply Mohammed Salah, a decent player playing for Italy’s 4th or 5th best side in his mid twenties. And heaven knows why you keep mentioning Silva, City signed him long before.
The signing of Fred from Shakhtar and the signing of Fernandinho from Shakhtar were similar level signings, in terms of the players respective standings in football at the time. Fernandinho cost £30m and had some impressive games in the CL, and Fred cost £50m, which a few years later was a similar type of deal, and had impressed in the CL for the exact same club. Also, the exact same club wanted him too.
I can give many more examples, but it is simply false to claim that Liverpool and City have been shopping in a higher market to us. It’s not as if they are signing Balon’Dor candidates and we are signing midtable players. If anything, I’d say the calibre of players we have signed have been higher than both post Fergie. The likes of Di Maria, Bastian, Lukaku, Sanchez, Pogba, Zlatan, Mkhitaryan were of higher standing than players like Jesus, Torres, Rodri, Mahrez, Salah, Mané, Firmino, Wijnaldum and others.
You are now looking back and calling these players ‘terrible recruitment’, which is all hindsight due to seeing how they have worked out. If you treated all of those signings we made with dismay at the time and all of the Liverpool and City ones with huge fear, then fair play, but that is likely not the case.
You can even see it now. The Benfica fans that told us about Lindelof and Dias rated Lindelof higher. Today Dias is arguably the best CB this season and we are looking to upgrade on Lindelof. Our recruitment has been bad in terms of planning and how the players suit in but those players were well rated when we signed them. Dalot and Ricardo Pereira is another example
I'm judging the transfers 3, 4 or 5 years after the fact. I never said the transfers were terrible at the time (though I should be on record that I didn't like Fred, Bastian and Sanchez), they have not worked and that's not questioned. The difference is you think the transfers didn't work because of poor coaching. I'm saying that's hogwash. They were bad transfers because they were not good enough. On the other hand, City and Liverpool have had great transfers the past 6 or 7 years.
you said: "you will struggle to name any player who has improved or even simply not regressed from the player they were before we signed them"
Rashford, Fred, Greenwood, Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire, AWB and Pogba (in some ways) have all improved under Ole. Surely you won't dispute that? Fred, though, seems to have hit his low ceiling.