Yeah but I did not say that was all they needed did I?
We are leaderless and have been for years
- Thread starter Ramshock
- Start date
I was thinking a few weeks back with the Spurs game and the kicking that Delle Ali gave Sanchez. He was able to bully our players - not so long ago we would have stood up for ourselves and gave as good as we got. Remember also Mark Noble actually carrying Ander Herrera off the pitch when we played West Ham a few years ago, there is no strength of character in this team in many ways. As soon as we go behind away from home we bottle it completely.
I can't think of any team these days that has these leaders. Barca didn't have any, and City too, don't have any 'leader' now. The difference is that Pep has instilled that mentality in his players. We simply look clueless when we concede a goal, or when the opposition is coming at us.
The problem is Jose. I think he has lost his mojo. The early Mourinho teams were mentally strong. We just look cowardly.
The problem is Jose. I think he has lost his mojo. The early Mourinho teams were mentally strong. We just look cowardly.
City are a.team playing fast free flowing attacking football for a strong manager who makes them retrieve the ball quickly He is their leader and they play his way.
Sadly we are a bunch of individuals who play slow tumescent football before hoofing it forward. We have no urgency to win the ball back, this is our manager's style.
A change.of mentality and approach is key and our summer recruitment is so so important we need to bring in players with winning mentality and some backbone
Sadly we are a bunch of individuals who play slow tumescent football before hoofing it forward. We have no urgency to win the ball back, this is our manager's style.
A change.of mentality and approach is key and our summer recruitment is so so important we need to bring in players with winning mentality and some backbone
Silva is their leader. When KDB tried to argue with ref at half time, Silva got in his way and told him to go back to dressing room.
Lord Smalling and Lord Jones are our leaders.
We do have 'leaders,' certainly as many as other teams do. The modern idea of a leader is someone who set an example for others - I suppose that is the old idea of leader too.
Valencia, Matic, De Gea, Pogba (to some extent), Sanchez, Ibrahimovic, Mata, Herrera are our leaders.
You look at someone like Kompany being City's leader, but he's often not in the team. Mertesacker at Arsenal is the same. Chelsea have, who, Luiz?
Valencia, Matic, De Gea, Pogba (to some extent), Sanchez, Ibrahimovic, Mata, Herrera are our leaders.
You look at someone like Kompany being City's leader, but he's often not in the team. Mertesacker at Arsenal is the same. Chelsea have, who, Luiz?
The way people talk here you would think that is the only thing he did. From reading here you wouldn't know he was also a great Footballer.
Does anyone else think the biggest advantage Pep has over Mourinho is his experience of playing in a top team himself? I feel there's certain aspects that are crucial to a title winning team and a player who has been in one would maybe understand these on a different wavelength to a normal manager.
Doesn’t help our captain can’t speak English
We should get SAF back just for one day to lecture these players on what it means to play for United and the badge. Honestly we've been like this ever since he left and a part of the club died when he retired. Players not giving 100% and most of all none of them came and thanked the fans at the end apart from four - Carrick, Jones, Mata and Young. The rest of them just sulked off. It's not acceptable.
Indeed, it’s quite annoying, Keane led by example first and foremost, he set incredible standards football wise, his screaming and shouting was if people weren’t up to those standards.
Keano would tell a player out straight if he wasn't putting in the effort and wouldn't mince his words, but more than that he would always lead by example, chasing players down, making himself available, keeping the ball moving even with simple passes, basically being all over the pitch. Of course the fear that he'd put in you would make you up your game for fear that he'd be on your neck but you'd also trust him too as someone you can always rely upon, someone to look to if you needed help. Looking at that current squad, there's a lot of talented individuals but no-one ready to take responsibility. I don't see anyone who would grab the game if it started going pear-shaped or anyone who can give an almighty bollocking should it be needed. Keano was always Fergie's mouthpiece on the pitch but who is Jose's?
It does keep everyone on check for sure.
The Ferdinand/Vidic/Evra thread springs to mind instantly. Three of our last leaders gone overnight.
Just have a think about this for a second..... Antonio Valencia is the current captain.....
This needs addressing ASAP but I don't know how you buy in experience and or grow it quickly. This will take time and energy and one of Jose's biggest missions in this squad in my opinion, beyond tactics/squad management. We need to cultivate that mentality and what we have in the squad currently is very very far from the grade.
Just have a think about this for a second..... Antonio Valencia is the current captain.....
This needs addressing ASAP but I don't know how you buy in experience and or grow it quickly. This will take time and energy and one of Jose's biggest missions in this squad in my opinion, beyond tactics/squad management. We need to cultivate that mentality and what we have in the squad currently is very very far from the grade.
We dont need leaders, we need players that play with desire, fire and passion
You're right, that style of leader has long gone. Can't think of any now.
Why would he do that?
His legacy grows more and more every year we fail to challenge for the Prem, never mind win it.
He went out a winner and can relax in retirement. He'd be silly to return imo.
We made a guy who doesn't speak English our on field captain, that says it all really.
Great post mate, really nailed it down - full of insight and proper knowledge.
In 17 seasons of club management, Mourinho has led his club to win its domestic league eight times, the UEFA Champions League twice and the UEFA Cup/Europa League twice. Between 2003 and 2012, Mourinho did not go a single calendar year without winning at least one trophy.
Porto[217]
- Primeira Liga: 2002–03, 2003–04
- Taça de Portugal: 2002–03
- Supertaça Cândido de Oliveira: 2003
- UEFA Champions League: 2003–04
- UEFA Cup: 2002–03
Mourinho on the touchline against Leicester City in August 2014
Chelsea[217]
- Premier League: 2004–05, 2005–06, 2014–15
- FA Cup: 2006–07
- Football League Cup: 2004–05, 2006–07, 2014–15
- FA Community Shield: 2005
- Serie A: 2008–09, 2009–10
- Coppa Italia: 2009–10
- Supercoppa Italiana: 2008
- UEFA Champions League: 2009–10
Manchester United[217]
Sigh, it's an away game in a really tough league. This is normal for me as we are not the team to beat in the league.
City is a freak of nature now, so we have to swallow that fact and prepare for next season.
The season is not over though. Mourinho is a proven leader, stop with this nonsense that he is not.
City is a freak of nature now, so we have to swallow that fact and prepare for next season.
The season is not over though. Mourinho is a proven leader, stop with this nonsense that he is not.
Indeed. Keane started hitting out at others for not being good enough at the point when he couldn’t face up to himself being no longer good enough.
Not sure that's the reason we lost yesterday but it is an issue. Our players are simply not that passionate beyond tricks and acting the clown. Then you have the quiet ones, Mata, Martial Valencia etc.
It's a shame Herrera has gone to shit as he was someone that did have it. I still miss Rafael for this very reason, his passion was infectious and even at RB it spurred us on.
It's a shame Herrera has gone to shit as he was someone that did have it. I still miss Rafael for this very reason, his passion was infectious and even at RB it spurred us on.
I agree whole heartedly, someone like Ramos has been for Madrid and Pique for Barcelone, both real men. As a generalisation I think leadership qualities have been 'teached' out of society in this day and age. wouldn't be politically correct to shout at another person, one may get sued or sidelined.
Is there such thing as leaders on the pitch any more?
Arsenal - None
Liverpool - None
Chelsea - None
City - None
Spurs - None
Modern football, the manager is the leader.
Arsenal - None
Liverpool - None
Chelsea - None
City - None
Spurs - None
Modern football, the manager is the leader.
Agree, I always prefer captains to be the one that sets the example for the rest of the team rather than the player with the highest profile, Puyol, Keane etc. I don't believe we have any player that really leads the team, let alone by example.
The manager can't lead the team on the pitch.
It's not just about tactical organisation but leading by example and getting others to raise their game.
When Liverpool and Spurs concede you rarely see their key players heads drop or get frustrated, you see effort and drive. Not so much with Arsenal and Chelsea
We need players who can fight back and over come when we concede first. They just panic and lose their shit.
Zlatan is still out so..
But it's true modern football seems to be lacking in "leadership" or specifically, players whom you can identify straightaway as "leaders". The Captain armband and title in football have become kind of meaningless. Imo it's just not football that have this kind of problems though.
But it's true modern football seems to be lacking in "leadership" or specifically, players whom you can identify straightaway as "leaders". The Captain armband and title in football have become kind of meaningless. Imo it's just not football that have this kind of problems though.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Speaking of leaders...
Completely agree, OP. Huddersfield, Man City, Burnley, Leicester, Newcastle: all games that would have yielded more points had a true leader been on the pitch to drag the team out of their bunkers either before or after things went south.
Pogba's not a leader yet based on his act against Newcastle.
Pogba's not a leader yet based on his act against Newcastle.
This thread, more than most, seems to have everyone mostly in agreement which tells you something on the Caf.
I think what upsets me the most is the apparent lack of fight in the team. It used to be that we’d tear into teams and set a tempo. I’m sure I remember SAF saying that you had to earn the right to play. Certainly the team with Sparky, Robbo and co would fight you if you wanted to but could outplay you too.
Maybe I’m a bit too old school but I just don’t think any team we put out should be outdone for effort. If the other team is too good on the day, or lucky, you put your hand up and say fair play. To be outdone physically tho, effort wise or outmuscled....nah, no excuses.
I saw a bit of the Spuds highlights in the CL and again, like against us, they were sticking their foot in and not afraid to get physical. I don’t actually know how they get away with some of it but others seem to as well, be it Huddersfield or the “fashionable” pressing sides. We need to be a bit cannier, streetwise, competitive, cynical...whatever you want to call it. We are disadvantaged until we do.
Last of all, it frustrates me no end that when one of players is chopped or clipped, we’re not making a fuss of it to the ref, highlighting the serial offenders and generally stepping up to the aggressors to defend our mates and get in their faces. I’m not saying go over the top and chase the ref for 100 yards but we need to start standing up for ourselves.
In short, we’ve just become a soft touch. It’s probably about having a leader although some of our best teams had multiple leaders. Tough nuts who hated losing. To be honest, with exception of Sanchez, I just don’t see it in the squad anymore. Without that mentality, we’re going to struggle to take the next step.
I think what upsets me the most is the apparent lack of fight in the team. It used to be that we’d tear into teams and set a tempo. I’m sure I remember SAF saying that you had to earn the right to play. Certainly the team with Sparky, Robbo and co would fight you if you wanted to but could outplay you too.
Maybe I’m a bit too old school but I just don’t think any team we put out should be outdone for effort. If the other team is too good on the day, or lucky, you put your hand up and say fair play. To be outdone physically tho, effort wise or outmuscled....nah, no excuses.
I saw a bit of the Spuds highlights in the CL and again, like against us, they were sticking their foot in and not afraid to get physical. I don’t actually know how they get away with some of it but others seem to as well, be it Huddersfield or the “fashionable” pressing sides. We need to be a bit cannier, streetwise, competitive, cynical...whatever you want to call it. We are disadvantaged until we do.
Last of all, it frustrates me no end that when one of players is chopped or clipped, we’re not making a fuss of it to the ref, highlighting the serial offenders and generally stepping up to the aggressors to defend our mates and get in their faces. I’m not saying go over the top and chase the ref for 100 yards but we need to start standing up for ourselves.
In short, we’ve just become a soft touch. It’s probably about having a leader although some of our best teams had multiple leaders. Tough nuts who hated losing. To be honest, with exception of Sanchez, I just don’t see it in the squad anymore. Without that mentality, we’re going to struggle to take the next step.
I don’t think leadership is an issue as much as work ethic is. Players like Sanchez, Lukaku , Ibra, Valencia, De Gea are all leaders in some form but it’s just the team’s work ethic that’s in question. We are one of the lowest in terms of ground covered during games and that in itself is an issue. The players are just a lazy fecking bunch.
We'd have won those games if we scored more goals than the opposition. We didn't.
City manage it every week, however. Liverpool scored five last night. City scored four the night before.
They didn't do that because they had true leaders. They did it because they are well-coached attacking sides that other teams struggle to defend against.
It's not leadership, its fight that we need...the 94 team would either out fight the opposition or outplay them, depending on how they set up...same in 99 and 08..
Can you imagine Chris Smallings fighting? With his girly voice and limp wrists...
Can you imagine Chris Smallings fighting? With his girly voice and limp wrists...
Can't argue with that to be fair, if you score more, you win.
Well, it's something a whole raft of plonkers do well to ignore.
Lose 1-0 to Newcastle: Replace Smalling with Lindelof. That'll solve it.
Its Alan Hansen everyone!
We don't seem to have anyone to step up when things are going against us. Bar maybe Lingard against Burnley on boxing day I cant remember many other pulling us out of a hole this season.. Ibra did it a certain stages last year, (equaliser against Liverpool, cup final goal, late winner at palace) but it's something we are lacking this season .
Pretty much. In some ways I don't understand how we score as much as Spurs in the league (perhaps quality of finishers). On Squawka they have the chance creation (EPL) in order of top to bottom
City (360), spuds (356), Liverpool (350), Chelsea (346), Arsenal (328), Utd (276) Saints (254) Palace (248) Watford (243)
For key passes its virtually the same top 5 are 50 odd ahead of the chasing pack, with United closer to the chasing pack than our rivals.