We lack basic technical ability

BrumTown87

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We need heavy investment in defence and midfield. If we get that investment as well as the right signings and we STILL can’t play attractive football, then we have to ask questions over the whole Coaching staff as well as Ole. Support your manager until he can’t be supported!
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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They actually dont
I honestly don’t see how it’s a debate. Bruno is better than any player they have. Rashford is better than any attacker they have. Maguire and Shaw are better than any defenders they have. It’s not that close and Utd have shown that the last two seasons.
 

Velvet Revolver

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How does ‘coaching’, whatever some of you actually mean by such a word, solve the fact that the likes of Fred aren’t remotely good enough at controlling and passing the football?

You don’t seriously think another bloke walks in and solves the fact that this halfwit keeps blasting the fecker out of play? Get real, lads.
Maybe coach him to not do that or play in a different position? if he cant shoot and if the coaches are encouraging to do so then the problem is not with entirely with Fred.

Yes of course we can always have a better bloke in all 11 positions. What is the point of coaching then? just upgrade all players to 'better' ones and voila.. titles titles everywhere
 

Leftback99

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Maybe coach him to not do that or play in a different position? if he cant shoot and if the coaches are encouraging to do so then the problem is not with entirely with Fred.

Yes of course we can always have a better bloke in all 11 positions. What is the point of coaching then? just upgrade all players to 'better' ones and voila.. titles titles everywhere
City have the best coach around and that's still pretty much what they've done.
 

Cassidy

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I honestly don’t see how it’s a debate. Bruno is better than any player they have. Rashford is better than any attacker they have. Maguire and Shaw are better than any defenders they have. It’s not that close and Utd have shown that the last two seasons.
We just do not agree
 

Velvet Revolver

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City have the best coach around and that's still pretty much what they've done.
Well not really, they have good players but City's coaching team have elevated them to be great players. Everyone here used to ridicule Sterling when he was at pool and now he's one of the best English players.

again am not saying city or pep can coach anyone into world beaters, there should be a balance and a match between coaching and player ability. let me ask you, don't you agree Bruno would an even better player if he played for city?
 

Tom Van Persie

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Yep, my favourite performances were City and Liverpool away. We completely played them off the park on both occasions.

One of our biggest problems under LVG was creativity, bruno and pogba would have solved that issue.
Individual players wouldn't have solved our creativity issues under LvG. The problem was the system. LvG would never have allowed a player like Bruno to express himself and try things. He would want him to stick to a position and recycle the ball.
 

Leftback99

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Well not really, they have good players but City's coaching team have elevated them to be great players. Everyone here used to ridicule Sterling when he was at pool and now he's one of the best English players.

again am not saying city or pep can coach anyone into world beaters, there should be a balance and a match between coaching and player ability. let me ask you, don't you agree Bruno would an even better player if he played for city?
I didn't used to ridicule Sterling. He got a big money move to City for a reason, he was top quality.

Bruno would have to play a different game at City to fit in with their style. Wouldn't necessarily make him better.
 

Jezpeza

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Well not really, they have good players but City's coaching team have elevated them to be great players. Everyone here used to ridicule Sterling when he was at pool and now he's one of the best English players.

again am not saying city or pep can coach anyone into world beaters, there should be a balance and a match between coaching and player ability. let me ask you, don't you agree Bruno would an even better player if he played for city?
In my opinion, Sterling was good at Liverpool but regularly made the wrong decision in the final third and was getting the reputation of a ‘no end product’ player. At City they got him using his head and coached him a bit and suddenly they added that end product. But he was getting into those positions of his own accord just not producing. Coaching is important in terms of polishing players and getting a system into the players but I think the idea that a great coach can turn any old shit player into a world beater with ‘good coaching’ is just silly
 

Velvet Revolver

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In my opinion, Sterling was good at Liverpool but regularly made the wrong decision in the final third and was getting the reputation of a ‘no end product’ player. At City they got him using his head and coached him a bit and suddenly they added that end product. But he was getting into those positions of his own accord just not producing. Coaching is important in terms of polishing players and getting a system into the players but I think the idea that a great coach can turn any old shit player into a world beater with ‘good coaching’ is just silly
I never said that did I? I said there should be a balance and match in the coaching and player ability and a system to close the loop on being a good side. Pep struggled( to his standards) in his first season because he had a good coaching staff but not all good players in his team so he got in players matching the techniques needed for his system.

We don't have a system, we don't the coaching and we don't have technical players. It's not one piece it's all of the above and to solve this we need to solve all of it, not just buy technical players.
 

Jezpeza

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I never said that did I? I said there should be a balance and match in the coaching and player ability and a system to close the loop on being a good side. Pep struggled( to his standards) in his first season because he had a good coaching staff but not all good players in his team so he got in players matching the techniques needed for his system.

We don't have a system, we don't the coaching and we don't have technical players. It's not one piece it's all of the above and to solve this we need to solve all of it, not just buy technical players.
utter cosh. One of the most ridiculous statements ive read. Why havent we been relegated then? If we have all that missing we’d be in the bottom half, not second and pushing into the latter stages of cup competitions.

oh wait, let me guess, individual brilliance and luck
 

Jezpeza

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Another extremely dumb thread. League tables don't lie. We wouldn't be second if we had no technically ability, no system of play and rubbish coaching. It's not possible. People need to give this cow dung a rest.....
you’re wrong. We have no technical ability but rely on individual brilliance from technically brilliant players to win matches. And luck, Like look at all those flukey penalties that werent penalties that VAR didnt dissalow. My argument totally makes sense, Ole out
 

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utter cosh. One of the most ridiculous statements ive read. Why havent we been relegated then? If we have all that missing we’d be in the bottom half, not second and pushing into the latter stages of cup competitions.

oh wait, let me guess, individual brilliance and luck
Yes.

well overreact much? just because we don't have a system doesn't mean we should be relegated. why is the sentiment here so extreme. Ok let me rephrase my statement. We don't have the system/coaching/technical players needed to for a team that can constantly win titles or fight for one. If you don't agree then it's fine everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 

Jezpeza

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Yes.

well overreact much? just because we don't have a system doesn't mean we should be relegated. why is the sentiment here so extreme. Ok let me rephrase my statement. We don't have the system/coaching/technical players needed to for a team that can constantly win titles or fight for one. If you don't agree then it's fine everyone is entitled to their opinion.
how are our technically shit players capable of ‘individual brilliance’?
 

Water Melon

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Our players need to have futsal sessions a couple of times a week. Off the ball movement and passing need some extra work.
 

RUCK4444

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how are our technically shit players capable of ‘individual brilliance’?
obvious its luck!
Yes without any coaching whatsoever as well don’t ya know!

•Tactically inept
•Zero coaching
•No patterns of play
•Trained by a PE teacher who’s level is Cardiff
•Awful style of play (but filled with comebacks and scoring as many as any team in the league which is purely down to luck.)
•Bizarre that we find ourselves 2nd - also purely down to luck and ‘moments of brilliance.’

CAF logic, it’s ace. ;)
 

Jezpeza

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Yes without any coaching whatsoever as well don’t ya know!

•Tactically inept
•Zero coaching
•No patterns of play
•Trained by a PE teacher who’s level is Cardiff
•Awful style of play (but filled with comebacks and scoring as many as any team in the league which is purely down to luck.)
•Bizarre that we find ourselves 2nd - also purely down to luck and ‘moments of brilliance.’

CAF logic, it’s ace. ;)
its how many people are nowadays. Mindless npc’s puppeting whatever narrative or rhetoric they hear without having a think or doing their own research/formulating their own opinion.
 

Fahad Jawaid

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Another thing to add to the topic is, we really lack players who can dribble from a standing position. We only have Rashford who used to do that, but due to injury he has stopped taking on players, now all we do is keep passing sideways and backwards with no player to spark life into the game and take people on.

City have Mahrez and Sterling, Liverpool have Salah and Mane. We need that weapon against teams who sit back. It helps create space as suddenly one or two players are taken out of the game and it creates panic among other players as they then need to leave their players.

So lack of technical ability, coupled with inability of players to take players on creates a situation where we have plenty of ball but no chances and possession for the sake of it. Plus we have defenders (AWB and Lindelof) along with Midfielders who unnecessarily gives the ball away (Fred, Bruno and Mctominay) and give chances to opposition so they are always in the game.
 

Kag

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We can obviously upgrade on some positions , where it's clearly the lack of the players ability. But we do have enough talent to string together more passes in the final third and try to create more chances.

Most of our chances seem to come from counters or individual brilliance, so coaching can definitely be improved upon.
We do create chances, though. Too often we don’t take them, which is why we are ranked 16th when it comes to the percentage of shots we have that result in a goal. We are ranked fifth in total shots on goal, so this is an issue.

We are also ranked fifth in terms of overall possession, behind City, Chelsea, Liverpool and an anomalous Leeds team. We are ranked fourth when it comes to accurate passes in the opposition half, behind City, Liverpool and Chelsea.

I’d say all of this is about right given the quality and profile of players we have available. It also meets my eye test.

Now my eyes tell me that we lack a proper goalscorer up top and a winger who can score and create from the right flank. The numbers would back me up. I also think we have some very good midfielders who are also, sadly, very sloppy. McTominay and Fred are not good enough to dictate the tempo of a game and Bruno and Pogba, for all of their positives, are sloppy as hell.

Chelsea, Liverpool and City, who are ahead of us in all of these metrics, all have midfielders who are significantly more tidy than ours, even if not as capable of producing moments of the ‘individual brilliance’ I hear so much about (De Bruyne aside).

Plenty of folk don’t want to hear it but Ole has this team exactly where it should be. It isn’t capable of too much more given the glaring issues at striker, right wing, midfield and centre half.

I’m not saying it’s all perfect, mind you. We need to get better at breaking teams down and I’d like to see the team build from the back more cohesively. But let’s get real: that isn’t happening with the likes of Wan-Bissaka (who I like), McTominay and James running the right flank. Or with Fred and Pogba losing the ball in midfield every ten minutes.
 

RUCK4444

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its how many people are nowadays. Mindless npc’s puppeting whatever narrative or rhetoric they hear without having a think or doing their own research/formulating their own opinion.
Yeah agree. The bit that makes me sick is the ones that jump on the idiotic narratives of oppo fans and then regurgitate it here.

There is always room for criticism, it should be creative and it should be formed from ones own volition, not based on outside influence.
 

Hesdoneitagain

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I completely get what OP is on about. In see a lot of people are saying that coaching is the problem and I agree with them, but they are missing the point here slightly. The poor first touches and poor slow wobbly passes between our players are not all to do with poor coaching. Surely at this stage of players’ careers they all should be comfortable with this and do not need to be coached these things.

I remember the days when Nani would be able to instantly control a 60 yard pass from Scholes. Now half of the long balls take at least 2 touches for a player to get under control.
 

Jezpeza

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Another thing to add to the topic is, we really lack players who can dribble from a standing position. We only have Rashford who used to do that, but due to injury he has stopped taking on players, now all we do is keep passing sideways and backwards with no player to spark life into the game and take people on.

City have Mahrez and Sterling, Liverpool have Salah and Mane. We need that weapon against teams who sit back. It helps create space as suddenly one or two players are taken out of the game and it creates panic among other players as they then need to leave their players.

So lack of technical ability, coupled with inability of players to take players on creates a situation where we have plenty of ball but no chances and possession for the sake of it. Plus we have defenders (AWB and Lindelof) along with Midfielders who unnecessarily gives the ball away (Fred, Bruno and Mctominay) and give chances to opposition so they are always in the game.
we had 13 shots yesterday, 7 on target.
brighton had 3, 3 on target

the facts dont support this rhetoric, sorry
 

Kag

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Maybe coach him to not do that or play in a different position? if he cant shoot and if the coaches are encouraging to do so then the problem is not with entirely with Fred.

Yes of course we can always have a better bloke in all 11 positions. What is the point of coaching then? just upgrade all players to 'better' ones and voila.. titles titles everywhere
‘Coaching’ isn’t suddenly going to turn Fred into Paul Scholes, I don’t care whether it’s Ole, Guardiola or Jesus Christ himself.

You can’t just bash your keys and type ‘cOaChiNg’ about every little thing you don’t like. Fred has improved significantly since Ole joined; he still often passes the ball as if he has two right feet and no coach is solving that.

Ole should really be solving the massive issues we have from set pieces. That is coaching.
 

Champ

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Strange how Leicester, who are according to some on here, superbly coached with brilliant technical players, are now four points behind the team who are poorly coached and have technically poor players. I can't work it out ...
 

Jezpeza

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Yeah agree. The bit that makes me sick is the ones that jump on the idiotic narratives of oppo fans and then regurgitate it here.

There is always room for criticism, it should be creative and it should be formed from ones own volition, not based on outside influence.
yeah. Dont like the toxic baseless Ole out rhetoric mainly from fans with sticky mauricio pochettino posters on their bedroom walls.

for me we are on a much better road. I remember my confidence sticking 30 quid on a 0/0 at 22/1 after watching 15 minutes into us playing Cambridge in an FA cup tie under LVG. Makes my piss boil to have fans say we have gone backwards since then. I actually wonder if they watch games or just look at the result and head to CAF to whinge sometimes.
 

Velvet Revolver

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Yes without any coaching whatsoever as well don’t ya know!

•Tactically inept
•Zero coaching
•No patterns of play
•Trained by a PE teacher who’s level is Cardiff
•Awful style of play (but filled with comebacks and scoring as many as any team in the league which is purely down to luck.)
•Bizarre that we find ourselves 2nd - also purely down to luck and ‘moments of brilliance.’

CAF logic, it’s ace. ;)
Well the other side of the logic is to generalize and categorize everything and create a bias. There can be a middle ground you know if you are not aware. And this has been done multiple times in multiple threads.

•Tactically inept - There is lack of tactical awareness. It is quite obvious and if you don't see or don' want to see it then it is a different thing. That doesn't equate to Zero tactics.
•Zero coaching - There is not enough coaching. If you think our coaching team is doing all they can and our players are being coached to the full extent. Either we need more coaching or we need better coaches. Again doesnt equate to zero coaching.
•No patterns of play - Patterns of play are very predictable and very basic and in some games non existent. Sideways passing and Bruno trying something new.
•Trained by a PE teacher who’s level is Cardiff - I never said that so i will not comment on that. That is not a assessment of Ole that I agree with or should be out there. He's doing a fine Job. But we need more.
•Awful style of play (but filled with comebacks and scoring as many as any team in the league which is purely down to luck.) - Do you think our style of play is great? it seems like it is either great of awful, again no middle ground for anyone. Our style of play is very labored and predictable. It is not fluid, it is not compact it is not defensive it is somewhere in between and not in the best of them.
•Bizarre that we find ourselves 2nd - also purely down to luck and ‘moments of brilliance.’ - IT is down to Individual brilliance. if Rashford or Bruno dont play we dont win. It is as simple as that. And I agree the way we have played it is bizarre that we are in 2nd.
 

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yeah. Dont like the toxic baseless Ole out rhetoric mainly from fans with sticky mauricio pochettino posters on their bedroom walls.

for me we are on a much better road. I remember my confidence sticking 30 quid on a 0/0 at 22/1 after watching 15 minutes into us playing Cambridge in an FA cup tie under LVG. Makes my piss boil to have fans say we have gone backwards since then. I actually wonder if they watch games or just look at the result and head to CAF to whinge sometimes.
Exactly. How anybody refuses to acknowledge there has been progression under Ole baffles me, in my opinion most of that stems from a clear agenda against Ole.

Theres a clear section of the posters here that seem to have the opinion we are too big a club for Ole and that he’s simply ‘beneath us.’ Which I feel is a pathetic outlook.

The same section like to believe the fans who back the manager are only doing so because he’s a former club legend. I love this one in particular because it highlights how they genuinely refuse to acknowledge any progress we’ve made with Ole. It’s tiring.
 

cyberman

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Yeah agree. The bit that makes me sick is the ones that jump on the idiotic narratives of oppo fans and then regurgitate it here.

There is always room for criticism, it should be creative and it should be formed from ones own volition, not based on outside influence.
The narratives are too much. Its claiming we have no style of play and the like and ignore everything that signals what style we have.
Theres a post in Rashfords thread about not tracking back and helping out Shaw and getting criticised over it. Instead of linking it to how we play (Shaw is having a fantastic season ffs) since Rashford staying a bit forward gives us an outlet for the quick break behind and a fulcrum for Shaw to immediately play off of to get forward... Instead he's shit. And lazy.
 

Velvet Revolver

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‘Coaching’ isn’t suddenly going to turn Fred into Paul Scholes, I don’t care whether it’s Ole, Guardiola or Jesus Christ himself.

You can’t just bash your keys and type ‘cOaChiNg’ about every little thing you don’t like. Fred has improved significantly since Ole joined; he still often passes the ball as if he has two right feet and no coach is solving that.

Ole should really be solving the massive issues we have from set pieces. That is coaching.
Ok based on this I don't think you know what coaching is! no one is expecting Fred to be 'coached' into the scholes. I dont think anyone can be scholes except scholes himself. If you think by coaching I mean turn players into world class overnight then you are mistaken. Coaching means understanding the strength and weakness of players and enabling them to improve their strengths and work on their weakness as a team.

Again you keep going back to Fred. Everyone in our team and any team in fact needs coaching.
 

RUCK4444

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Well the other side of the logic is to generalize and categorize everything and create a bias. There can be a middle ground you know if you are not aware. And this has been done multiple times in multiple threads.

•Tactically inept - There is lack of tactical awareness. It is quite obvious and if you don't see or don' want to see it then it is a different thing. That doesn't equate to Zero tactics.
•Zero coaching - There is not enough coaching. If you think our coaching team is doing all they can and our players are being coached to the full extent. Either we need more coaching or we need better coaches. Again doesnt equate to zero coaching.
•No patterns of play - Patterns of play are very predictable and very basic and in some games non existent. Sideways passing and Bruno trying something new.
•Trained by a PE teacher who’s level is Cardiff - I never said that so i will not comment on that. That is not a assessment of Ole that I agree with or should be out there. He's doing a fine Job. But we need more.
•Awful style of play (but filled with comebacks and scoring as many as any team in the league which is purely down to luck.) - Do you think our style of play is great? it seems like it is either great of awful, again no middle ground for anyone. Our style of play is very labored and predictable. It is not fluid, it is not compact it is not defensive it is somewhere in between and not in the best of them.
•Bizarre that we find ourselves 2nd - also purely down to luck and ‘moments of brilliance.’ - IT is down to Individual brilliance. if Rashford or Bruno dont play we dont win. It is as simple as that. And I agree the way we have played it is bizarre that we are in 2nd.
Wow I thought your first post that I quoted was you being sarcastic, you obviously meant that :lol:

Yeah I pretty much disagree with everything you said. Based on your logic the PL is a shite competition where any team with a sprinkling of good players can solidify 2nd position.

Not to mention that apparently a poorly coached and very predictable team can our score the rest of said league for the majority of the season, particularly when our forwards are barely into double figures.

In short, is there progress to be made? Sure.
Are we anywhere near as bad as some like to pretend? No.
 

LoneStar

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We do create chances, though. Too often we don’t take them, which is why we are ranked 16th when it comes to the percentage of shots we have that result in a goal. We are ranked fifth in total shots on goal, so this is an issue.

We are also ranked fifth in terms of overall possession, behind City, Chelsea, Liverpool and an anomalous Leeds team. We are ranked fourth when it comes to accurate passes in the opposition half, behind City, Liverpool and Chelsea.

I’d say all of this is about right given the quality and profile of players we have available. It also meets my eye test.

Now my eyes tell me that we lack a proper goalscorer up top and a winger who can score and create from the right flank. The numbers would back me up. I also think we have some very good midfielders who are also, sadly, very sloppy. McTominay and Fred are not good enough to dictate the tempo of a game and Bruno and Pogba, for all of their positives, are sloppy as hell.

Chelsea, Liverpool and City, who are ahead of us in all of these metrics, all have midfielders who are significantly more tidy than ours, even if not as capable of producing moments of the ‘individual brilliance’ I hear so much about (De Bruyne aside).

Plenty of folk don’t want to hear it but Ole has this team exactly where it should be. It isn’t capable of too much more given the glaring issues at striker, right wing, midfield and centre half.

I’m not saying it’s all perfect, mind you. We need to get better at breaking teams down and I’d like to see the team build from the back more cohesively. But let’s get real: that isn’t happening with the likes of Wan-Bissaka (who I like), McTominay and James running the right flank. Or with Fred and Pogba losing the ball in midfield every ten minutes.
We definitely don't have a good balance in midfield. We have two CDMs who can't pass the ball and have zero creativity.

And a striker and a RW are a priority, but we'll be lucky to get even one of those next window.

I'm not saying Ole has underperformed. It's like you say, he has us pretty much close to our individual ability and talent. However I feel a great coach would push this team to beyond that.
 

Kag

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Ok based on this I don't think you know what coaching is! no one is expecting Fred to be 'coached' into the scholes. I dont think anyone can be scholes except scholes himself. If you think by coaching I mean turn players into world class overnight then you are mistaken. Coaching means understanding the strength and weakness of players and enabling them to improve their strengths and work on their weakness as a team.

Again you keep going back to Fred. Everyone in our team and any team in fact needs coaching.
I’m going back to Fred because that is who my post, and your response, was referring to. You said ‘maybe coach him not to do that’ in reply to my observation that he regularly blasts the fecker out of play. You can’t. It’s an issue endemic within Fred’s game that he isn’t suddenly going to sort out at the age of 27. So spare me the lecture on coaching; it is misplaced within the context of this discussion.

Separately, my view is that there is a positive approach to the vast majority of our games and that we need a few more proper players for the work we’ve done to really bear fruit. I go into specifics further above.
 

Kag

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We definitely don't have a good balance in midfield. We have two CDMs who can't pass the ball and have zero creativity.

And a striker and a RW are a priority, but we'll be lucky to get even one of those next window.

I'm not saying Ole has underperformed. It's like you say, he has us pretty much close to our individual ability and talent. However I feel a great coach would push this team to beyond that.
Agree with your first two points.

As for the bold, it might. My worry is that the wrong bloke could very easily see this team slide down into seventh or eighth. Ole has put together a good group and made us hard to beat but scratch under the surface and things could get quite messy. It’s why spending money on attacking players is imperative this summer.
 

Velvet Revolver

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Wow I thought your first post that I quoted was you being sarcastic, you obviously meant that :lol:

Yeah I pretty much disagree with everything you said. Based on your logic the PL is a shite competition where any team with a sprinkling of good players can solidify 2nd position.

Not to mention that apparently a poorly coached and very predictable team can our score the rest of said league for the majority of the season, particularly when our forwards are barely into double figures.

In short, is there progress to be made? Sure.
Are we anywhere near as bad as some like to pretend? No.
I agree with this and this is what my gripe is, we need to perform at a higher level than what we are. We are capable of it we just need the right setup. But I don't see it happening with the way we are currently setup. I may be wrong next season we might win the title. I feel this is a weird season in all aspects..

you can disagree with me all you want but that doesn't change the fact that you are being biased in your generalization of fans or fans that have a different view point. Not everyone sees it the same way you do and it's totally fine but ridiculing others for their viewpoint is a little low.