"We need to put a run together" - Our form vs Rivals

[Keefy18]

Has anyone even bothered to look at our actual form? Has anyone compared it to say our rivals?

I can only assume based on the general Ole out bashing that still continues relentlessly among our supporters that they clearly haven't.

In the PL - We are only bettered by Liverpool, Leicester & Wolves in terms of recent form (last 6 PL games)

• Liverpool & Leicester have both won all their previous 6 PL games
• Wolves with 3 Wins & 3 Draws
• United 3 Wins, 2 Draws 1 Loss

Our form is currently the same as Spurs, better than City, Chelsea & Arsenal!

https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england

But to take an ever bigger time frame of say double that and over all competitions (12 games), Only Liverpool & Leicester are currently in better form that United.
Remember the below table is each teams last 12 matches across all competitions.

I appreciate that the draws to SU & Villa were frustrating, but missing 2 important players in Pogba and McTominay didn't help. Fred was completely over ran in midfield and we conceded 5 goals in 2 games, the proof is there.

When these 2 games are looked at in a smaller picture mentality it is bad, but when you take slightly bigger sample size of form and compare it to our rivals (Context), then it isn't so bad.

Folks have used Lampard as an apparent reason that Ole is failing, his form is currently worse than ours and that new manager bounce seems to be fading quickly and I'm suddenly not seeing Lampard's name mentioned as much.

Team	Played	Won	Draw	Lost
Leicester	12	11	1	0
Liverpool	12	10	2	0
Man United	12	7	3	2
Man City	12	7	3	2
Wolves	12	6	5	1
Spurs	12	6	3	3
Chelsea	12	6	2	4

Anyway thought I'd highlight this and try add some context and actual facts of our current form here but no doubt the doom mongering will continue.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

We’re 5 points off 4th. (Not a great achievement in itself- LVG & Jose got sacked for less)

Why are stats being manipulated to make Ole look great when LVG &Jose we’re treated differently? Our standards & expectations from ‘supporters’ who should want the best that we can be for the club are so so low

 

[IrishRedDevil]

As good as the short term form has been, the next game is the biggest of the season so far for me. To see if we can win 3 games in a row. We are at home to Everton.

Looking slightly further ahead, we play Everton, Watford, Newcastle and then Burnley. I’ll discuss our form after those 4 games.

 

[Wumminator]

Those two draws against SU and Villa hurt so much because we should have won and seen the game out. Just need to keep going and replace our bench players like Mata and Perreria with better quality.

 

[Wumminator]

We’re 5 points off 4th. (Not a great achievement in itself- LVG & Jose got sacked for less)

Why are stats being manipulated to make Ole look great when LVG &Jose we’re treated differently? Our standards & expectations from ‘supporters’ who should want the best that we can be for the club are so so low

Hang on. Did Jose get sacked for less?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

We have started playing better since the Liverpool game. Still some annoying results in the mix.

 

[ReddBalls]

Has anyone even bothered to look at our actual form? Has anyone compared it to say our rivals?

I can only assume based on the general Ole out bashing that still continues relentlessly among our "supporters" that they clearly haven't.

In the PL - We are only bettered by Liverpool, Leicester & Wolves in terms of recent form (last 6 PL games)

• Liverpool & Leicester have both won all their previous 6 PL games
• Wolves with 3 Wins & 3 Draws
• United 3 Wins, 2 Draws 1 Loss

Our form is currently the same as Spurs, better than City, Chelsea & Arsenal!

https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england

But to take an every bigger time frame of say double that and over all competitions (12 games), Only Liverpool & Leicester are currently in better form that United.
Remember the below table is each teams last 12 matches across all competitions.

I appreciate that the draws to SU & Villa were frustrating, but missing 2 important players in Pogba and McTominay didn't help. Fred was completely over ran in midfield and we conceded 5 goals in 2 games, the proof is there.

When these 2 games are looked at in a smaller picture mentality it is bad, but when you take slightly bigger sample size of form and compare it to our rivals (Context), then it isn't so bad.

Folks have used Lampard as an apparent reason that Ole is failing, his form is currently worse than ours and that new manager bounce seems to be fading quickly and I'm suddenly not seeing Lampard's name mentioned as much.

Team	Played	Won	Draw	Lost
Leicester	12	11	1	0
Liverpool	12	10	2	0
Man United	12	7	3	2
Man City	12	7	3	2
Wolves	12	6	5	1
Spurs	12	6	3	3
Chelsea	12	6	2	4

Anyway thought I'd highlight this and try add some context and actual facts of our current form here but no doubt the doom mongering Ole out Mafia will not be having this.

Good post. Another thing that people seem to forget, is that although United has struggled with scoring against lesser teams, they actually scored 2 against Villa and 3 against Sheffield.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Hang on. Did Jose get sacked for less?

He finished 2nd the season before he was sacked

 

[Keefy18]

We’re 5 points off 4th. (Not a great achievement in itself- LVG & Jose got sacked for less)

Why are stats being manipulated to make Ole look great when LVG &Jose we’re treated differently? Our standards & expectations from ‘supporters’ who should want the best that we can be for the club are so so low

So?

5 pts is nothing, especially with Chelsea having to play both Arsenal and Spurs in the next 2 weeks.

Point being our form is currently better than Chelsea's which I've just pointed out.

They aren't being manipulated at all, do you understand how the "form guide" works?

Form guides either take the previous 5 or 6 league games and compared and if you take the previous 5 games only Liverpool and Leicester are better than us I believe and over 6 games Wolves can better us.

I can only assume from the tone of your comments you're a young supporter and know nothing but Ferguson and glory years.

We went 26 years without a title you know. The countries 2nd biggest club in Liverpool are only winning their 1st league title in 30 years.

 

[Wumminator]

He finished 2nd the season before he was sacked

Yes and then completely flopped the next season. He had done ten times more damage to the club.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Those two draws against SU and Villa hurt so much because we should have won and seen the game out. Just need to keep going and replace our bench players like Mata and Perreria with better quality.

SU and Villa were the better team in both those games though.

 

[Keefy18]

Those two draws against SU and Villa hurt so much because we should have won and seen the game out. Just need to keep going and replace our bench players like Mata and Perreria with better quality.

This is the problem the Ole out mafia don't want to acknowledge.

Ole simply can't replace quality with quality right now.

 

[RedorDead21]

We’re 5 points off 4th. (Not a great achievement in itself- LVG & Jose got sacked for less)

Why are stats being manipulated to make Ole look great when LVG &Jose we’re treated differently? Our standards & expectations from ‘supporters’ who should want the best that we can be for the club are so so low

But when we do play well under Ole we play a style of football we actually appreciate unlike the others you mention. We largely accept Ole subs are backward steps because the bench is so poor. With the others it was less so. We have seen something resembling a midfield pairing Materialise in recent months. We know we can’t break teams down that sit in as we have no AM at the club right now. Or in Pogba, a guy that’s injured. We haven’t been able to play our best midfield 3 very often so progress is damn slow this season. Ultimately im
Moving towards blaming recruitment issues not coaching issues with Ole and that’s the only conclusion I’m making with him. We need some more quality midfielders in and a top number 9.

 

[RedStarUnited]

But when we do play well under Ole we play a style of football we actually appreciate unlike the others you mention. We largely accept Ole subs are backward steps because the bench is so poor. With the others it was less so. We have seen something resembling a midfield pairing Materialise in recent months. We know we can’t break teams down that sit in as we have no AM at the club right now. Or in Pogba, a guy that’s injured. We haven’t been able to play our best midfield 3 very often so progress is damn slow this season. Ultimately im
Moving towards blaming recruitment issues not coaching issues with Ole and that’s the only conclusion I’m making with him. We need some more quality midfielders in and a top number 9.

To be fair to LVG, we did play well in his big games too. Our performance at Anfield in 2015 is probably the best we have played there in about 20 years.

 

[Wumminator]

SU and Villa were the better team in both those games though.

against Villa we had double the shots, double the shots on target and 70% possession. How were they better than us?

 

[VivaObertan]

We’re 5 points off 4th. (Not a great achievement in itself- LVG & Jose got sacked for less)

Why are stats being manipulated to make Ole look great when LVG &Jose we’re treated differently? Our standards & expectations from ‘supporters’ who should want the best that we can be for the club are so so low

My expectations have dropped given the squad we have now vs 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago. (Huge quality and experience drop therefore I'm happy with the performances and incremental improvements).

 

[Keefy18]

Good post. Another thing that people seem to forget, is that although United has struggled with scoring against lesser teams, they actually scored 2 against Villa and 3 against Sheffield.

You're right.

Considering we're missing our main creative outlet and our MF has constantly had injuries along with Martial also, we're fairing quite well.

We've only scored 3 goals less than at the same point as last year.

However we've conceded 7 goals less (26 vs 19 for this year).

 

[Rafaeldagold]

So?

5 pts is nothing, especially with Chelsea having to play both Arsenal and Spurs in the next 2 weeks.

Point being our form is currently better than Chelsea's which I've just pointed out.

They aren't being manipulated at all, do you understand how the "form guide" works?

Form guides either take the previous 5 or 6 league games and compared and if you take the previous 5 games only Liverpool and Leicester are better than us I believe and over 6 games Wolves can better us.

I can only assume from the tone of your comments you're a young supporter and know nothing but Ferguson and glory years.

We went 26 years without a title you know. The countries 2nd biggest club in Liverpool are only winning their 1st league title in 30 years.

If ‘5 points is nothing’ we could also go the other way down the table. But of course that doesn’t compute with the Ole in brigade

 

[ReddBalls]

If ‘5 points is nothing’ we could also go the other way down the table. But of course that doesn’t compute with the Ole in brigade

That's a fair point, but as the form table in the opening post suggests, it is legitimate to hope for further ascendance on the table.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

To be fair to LVG, we did play well in his big games too. Our performance at Anfield in 2015 is probably the best we have played there in about 20 years.

Yep LVG was sensational against the big teams, played them off the park at Anfield, controlled City at home. He achieved higher league positions than Ole but now all of a sudden now it’s Ole he can do no wrong

 

[Keefy18]

If ‘5 points is nothing’ we could also go the other way down the table. But of course that doesn’t compute with the Ole in brigade

Why would it when the form suggests otherwise?

Again I can only assume you're a young supporter and familiar with success with Ferguson.

The standard of player at the club has dropped off, the club has been ran poorly so yes expectations should lower in times like this.

We aren't good enough to challenge for a title yet, that doesn't mean that you can't afford a manager a period of time to see what they can do but impatient supporters like you prefer to be spoiled and demand instant success.

The signs all point to our current issues being with recruitment pre Ole not with Ole himself.

 

[Keefy18]

Yep LVG was sensational against the big teams, played them off the park at Anfield, controlled City at home. He achieved higher league positions than Ole but now all of a sudden now it’s Ole he can do no wrong

Ole hasn't finished a full league campaign yet?

Unless you've a Delorean and can time travel and you know Ole finishes worse than LVG?

 

[Handré1990]

‘Ole out mafia this and Ole in brigade that’. Like watching a debate between 14-year olds.

 

[Damien]

We’re 5 points off 4th. (Not a great achievement in itself- LVG & Jose got sacked for less)

Why are stats being manipulated to make Ole look great when LVG &Jose we’re treated differently? Our standards & expectations from ‘supporters’ who should want the best that we can be for the club are so so low

We were 11 points off fourth when Jose got sacked.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

Ole hasn't finished a full league campaign yet?

Unless you've a Delorean and can time travel and you know Ole finishes worse than LVG?

I mean you don’t need a time machine to see he’ll finish lower than LVG. But I specifically said ‘league position’ as in where they both were in the table.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We were 11 points off fourth when Jose got sacked.

They had better and more proper (but not enough) achievements beforehand.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

‘Ole out mafia this and Ole in brigade that’. Like watching a debate between 14-year olds.

Seriously. It's all a little pathetic.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

We were 11 points off fourth when Jose got sacked.

Yes but 2nd season before-as everyone says Ole needs the season to see where he finishes right? Why didn’t José get that after proving he can finish high up the league

 

[utdalltheway]

Just had a look at fixtures through early January. We’re playing every 3 or 4 days, and once on a days break (Dec 26th & Dec 28th).
Hope the squad is up for it.

 

[Handré1990]

Seriously. It's all a little pathetic.

Right? It’s just so childish. It is possible to want him out without hating him and hoping he’ll fail, all the while supporting him and the team while he’s here. It’s also possible to want him in without being a cult member. Binary thinking seems to have become the norm.

 

[Kag]

Yes but 2nd season before-as everyone says Ole needs the season to see where he finishes right? Why didn’t José get that after proving he can finish high up the league

Because Mourinho had manufactured a situation in which the entire club was swamped by his toxicity. He wanted to tear it all down.

Morale within the club is good, even if results aren’t. This is because Ole has the players on side and his aware of what needs to be done to improve. It’s what we do in the transfer market that will make or break the vision.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes but 2nd season before-as everyone says Ole needs the season to see where he finishes right? Why didn’t José get that after proving he can finish high up the league

Because Mourinho unlike Ole was purposely creating dissenssion within the club and creating a toxic atmosphere. If he was able to behave during tough times Mourinho would probably be our manager today. For me it's fair to criticize Ole for the 20 games stretch between the last 10 games of last season and the first 10 games of this season, 6 wins out of 20 games was bad but his attitude means that if he turns things around in December we will rightfully give him more time to prove himself and most of us have no intention to be on his back 24/7.

 

[Ødegaard]

We need(ed) to put a run together, not because of how our last six games were compared to our competitors, but because of how our season had gone compared to our competitors.
The club has done bloody brilliant to get 2 hard fought wins, and they deserve plaudits and time for that. But that doesn't mean we aren't 5th in the table and there is a short way down it. Pressure is there to continue to do well, as it should be.

 

[7even]

First. We’re playing really good at the moment. Better and better for each game. Ole and his players has in few games taken us to top 4 contenders. Nothing but respect to Ole and the future looks brighter.


To my point. Why has this discussions turned out to be a Ole IN vs. Ole OUT competition? Different opinions is normally a good thing but in this case it’s so much emotions and pride involved. Extreme argumentations from both camps and except from a few decent posters there is a underlying tasteless tone whenever there is a chance to score cheap points.

If United starts to perform better then we‘re all winners, and the opposite off course. I have no problem changing my mind if things get better/worse. Part of life of sometimes being wrong. Next time I do better.

Finally. Our form is good but the next 5 games will probably determine our season. Looking forward to the future but I will not make my final decision regarding if I think Ole is the manager to take us forward until the season ends.

 

[Ødegaard]

Yes but 2nd season before-as everyone says Ole needs the season to see where he finishes right? Why didn’t José get that after proving he can finish high up the league

I was arguing Jose's case when people were moaning about results and money spent, but once he started being a overwhelming negative influence at the club he made it impossible for himself to stay and for myself and like-minded people to argue his case.

Ole won't do that.
Because of that people like myself who don't have faith in his abilities will not become overly negative towards him until it seems dead certain for most that he doesn't have what it takes.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Around the time those 'our next 6 game' conversations started we hit great form. Now we have a legit easy run of games having closed the gap on 4th and seeing Chelsea falter.

Big Dunc's everton side are going to put it up to us at home and we need to have the same commitment we have had vs the big teams in these types of games all through the winter

 

[Roboc7]

10 points from 10 games against teams outside last seasons top 6 (and Leicester). That form has been maintained all season and shown little signs of improving. That’s where all the dropped points are and if we are to turn a corner it’s those games that we need to find a way of winning.

Those are supposed to be the easy games where you can accumulate a lot of points, on current form we’ll only get four points from these four ‘easy’ games we have coming next.

 

[Acquire Me]

We’re 5 points off 4th. (Not a great achievement in itself- LVG & Jose got sacked for less)

Why are stats being manipulated to make Ole look great when LVG &Jose we’re treated differently? Our standards & expectations from ‘supporters’ who should want the best that we can be for the club are so so low

You are a bit annoying, eh? Read the post and try again.

 

[Rafaeldagold]

You are a bit annoying, eh? Read the post and try again.

So sorry to have annoyed you. I feel awful .
Please enlighten me how I’m wrong?

 

[Rado_N]

I can only assume based on the general Ole out bashing that still continues relentlessly among our "supporters" that they clearly haven't.

You invalidate any semblance of a point you may potentially have when you resort to telling people with a different view of the current situation that they are not real fans.