We need to talk about the Cunha-Mbeumo-Amad front 3

[Garethw]

I just don’t see anything in why Mbeumo should start ahead of Amad seeing as Amad has a lot more intensity, much more direct, quicker, better on the ball, a better passer and can come inside or go on the outside whilst all Mbeumo has over Amad is size and potential goal threat but we seem a lot slower with Mbeumo starting on the right.

Obviously I can’t read Carrick’s mind but I imagine he uses Mbeumo up top due to his size and strength and the fact it allows us a more fluid front line that can interchange whereas right now with Sesko learning and adapting the front line is very set positionally so no fluidity and easier to man mark.

It can’t be due to his size though. Mbuemo is tiny for a centre forward. He’s barely 5’ 7”.

The whole Mbuemo experiment as a striker just needs to end. I’d rather play striker less than keep playing round pegs in square holes.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Amad has been the most disappointing.

Good general play, no end product.

 

[Silas]

We need to try Cunha — Sesko — Amad. Mbuemo may have more output than Amad, but I just don’t rate his general play at the moment, regardless of position.

 

[davidmichael]

It can’t be due to his size though. Mbuemo is tiny for a centre forward. He’s barely 5’ 7”.

The whole Mbuemo experiment as a striker just needs to end. I’d rather play striker less than keep playing round pegs in square holes.

By size I meant his build and physique as he’s very stocky and strong but I do agree that we do need to play someone who’s best position is as a striker, I just don’t see Mbeumo offering more than Amad does on the right and one of our main problems has been our intensity from the start of games which Amad offers.

 

[Grande]

The benefit of shape and system HOW we play with Sesko on the pitch is far bigger than his impact as a sub. Meaning, we play better football with Sesko up top and that was evident even under Amorim era, he just wasn't scoring but he was getting at the end of chances regularly.

I get we want Mbuemo to press from the front but this pressing has been hardly effective because midfield and defenders stay in mid block anyway, and that's not going to change since we are a slow team (so can't press high as it's too risky).

Another benefit is we can leave one of Amad or Mbuemo on the bench, and then decide how we change things up in the game.

Sesko will not be scoring 1 in 1 all the time, but he has to play simply because he stretches the defence, can win some headers and will constantly keep 2 defenders busy.

Then I'd play Mbuemo in the right. It's not hapenning for Amad recently. Mbuemo is in poor form but he won't be that bad in his preferred position. Him and Sesko also play well off each other.

EDIT: I also believe the impact of losing Dorgu is far bigger than people realise, or are willing to admit. He was our best player alongside Bruno when he got injured.

I think this is an interesting take, and quite possible. My argumentaition against it (which I’m not at all sure stacks up), would be the impression I got from our most fluid football we played, the first games under Carrick, being with Mbeumo up top, and point two, that my impression when Sesko came in, and particularily that game he started, it seemed to me we lost a bit of fluidity and control. Towards the end of games we have tended to produce a few chances as the game opens up, and Sesko has been very good getting into the right positions in those phases, except the game when he started. So even as I concede you may be right, my scepticism is about wether we really are more dangerous as a side in our general play with Sesko than with Mbeumo, at kmleast for the opening hours of games.

 

[Reiver]

I think this is an interesting take, and quite possible. My argumentaition against it (which I’m not at all sure stacks up), would be the impression I got from our most fluid football we played, the first games under Carrick, being with Mbeumo up top, and point two, that my impression when Sesko came in, and particularily that game he started, it seemed to me we lost a bit of fluidity and control. Towards the end of games we have tended to produce a few chances as the game opens up, and Sesko has been very good getting into the right positions in those phases, except the game when he started. So even as I concede you may be right, my scepticism is about wether we really are more dangerous as a side in our general play with Sesko than with Mbeumo, at kmleast for the opening hours of games.

I'm not saying you're wrong but surely the stats would suggest we would be far more effective swapping out Amad for Sesko at this point?
I get Sesko started more under Amorim but he needs to start under Carrick more often before we can say he's better as a sub?
Either way, having an over abundance of attacking options is good to have, for once.

 

[Borys]

I think this is an interesting take, and quite possible. My argumentaition against it (which I’m not at all sure stacks up), would be the impression I got from our most fluid football we played, the first games under Carrick, being with Mbeumo up top, and point two, that my impression when Sesko came in, and particularily that game he started, it seemed to me we lost a bit of fluidity and control.

I get the same impression about less "fluidity" in our game when Sesko is playing. However, the question is what we're getting in return - because fluidity itself isn't an objective. Team can pass the ball around nicely, but pose no threat whatsoever. I'm not saying that's the case for us, but we are certainly getting more output from Bruno and Cunha who are the ones who often break out of the game rhythm.

Towards the end of games we have tended to produce a few chances as the game opens up, and Sesko has been very good getting into the right positions in those phases, except the game when he started. So even as I concede you may be right, my scepticism is about wether we really are more dangerous as a side in our general play with Sesko than with Mbeumo, at kmleast for the opening hours of games.

Let's for the sake of an argument assume Sesko can't play more than 60' at full pace. I don't buy the idea he is more impactful from bench for the last 30 instead of starting 60, because
A) we've seen him consistently getting at the end of chances (even late Amorim era)
B) the alternative in Mbuemo is not working at all
C) playing with conventional striker changes the team shape and attacking patterns completely.

Point C does not even require Sesko to bang a goal per game, but him being a nuance for the opposition opens up space and provides second balls to chase by the remaining attackers. This is my main argument, not Sesko goalscoring form (which will fluctuate). Sesko has been consistently good in his general play and getting at the end of chances, while Mbuemo looks regularly overwhelmed (for the lack of a better word).

Few games ago we played with all 4 of Cunha, Bruno, Mbuemo and Amad coming inside and clogging the central areas. We've been much better since Cunha was deployed in "holding width" role rather than "cut inside and shoot" Mantra. I believe similar effect we'll get playing Sesko up front, it will add a dimension to our game. Right now we look still quite flat.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I just don’t see anything in why Mbeumo should start ahead of Amad seeing as Amad has a lot more intensity, much more direct, quicker, better on the ball, a better passer and can come inside or go on the outside whilst all Mbeumo has over Amad is size and potential goal threat but we seem a lot slower with Mbeumo starting on the right.

Amad had 2 goals and 2 assists all season.

I see absolutely every reason why he doesn’t deserve to be starting ahead of Mbuemo.

Antony had very good general play too and was a brilliant out ball under pressure, but was hounded out of the club for his low productivity. Amad this season has been far below the required standard for a left forward, even post Amorim.

 

[gerdm07]

Should play Cunha through the middle and the other two out wide.

Replace Bruno with Cunha? Never happen except for an injury.

 

[gerdm07]

Amad had 2 goals and 2 assists all season.

I see absolutely every reason why he doesn’t deserve to be starting ahead of Mbuemo.

Antony had very good general play too and was a brilliant out ball under pressure, but was hounded out of the club for his low productivity. Amad this season has been far below the required standard for a left forward, even post Amorim.

Amad just isn't a good goal scorer. I got to see Messi score in Baltimore recently and one thing I've noticed with Messi is his shots are almost always perfectly weighted. Just hard enough to beat the keeper, but not too hard that its difficult to be pretty accurate. I think most good goal scorers do this. Amad doesn't seem to understand this important element.

 

[Ash_G]

I just don’t see anything in why Mbeumo should start ahead of Amad seeing as Amad has a lot more intensity, much more direct, quicker, better on the ball, a better passer and can come inside or go on the outside whilst all Mbeumo has over Amad is size and potential goal threat but we seem a lot slower with Mbeumo starting on the right.

Obviously I can’t read Carrick’s mind but I imagine he uses Mbeumo up top due to his size and strength and the fact it allows us a more fluid front line that can interchange whereas right now with Sesko learning and adapting the front line is very set positionally so no fluidity and easier to man mark.

I agree. Whilst I think Amad needs to be more aggressive in how he attacks (although we shouldn't forget against Bournemouth he had a good shot saved and should have won a pen) he provides a balance and willingness to keep the ball that we sorely lack in the team. We have a lot of players, particularly Bruno, Cunha and Casemiro who try aggressive passes and we need to balance that with players who will retain the ball which Amad does really well along with his defensive work.

I do wonder if we could try Cunha through the middle more or have him and Mbeumo switching more but my general sense is Mbeumo is a bit tired/ out of form and think it would be good to give Sesko a run. Clearly in games where we think we will be playing on the counter more then this front 3 makes a lot of sense with their pace.

 

[davidmichael]

Amad had 2 goals and 2 assists all season.

I see absolutely every reason why he doesn’t deserve to be starting ahead of Mbuemo.

Antony had very good general play too and was a brilliant out ball under pressure, but was hounded out of the club for his low productivity. Amad this season has been far below the required standard for a left forward, even post Amorim.

It’s not just about goals and assists though as our general play and intensity is far better when Amad plays, we don’t press from the front anywhere near as well when both Sesko and Mbeumo start so we’re far easier to play through.

If we’re looking at just stats then Mbeumo has more goals but stats don’t show all round play or how they affect the full team play, I think Mbeumo is a good squad player but an in form Amad is a much better player than an in form Mbeumo and Amad improves our team play more.

I agree. Whilst I think Amad needs to be more aggressive in how he attacks (although we shouldn't forget against Bournemouth he had a good shot saved and should have won a pen) he provides a balance and willingness to keep the ball that we sorely lack in the team. We have a lot of players, particularly Bruno, Cunha and Casemiro who try aggressive passes and we need to balance that with players who will retain the ball which Amad does really well along with his defensive work.

I do wonder if we could try Cunha through the middle more or have him and Mbeumo switching more but my general sense is Mbeumo is a bit tired/ out of form and think it would be good to give Sesko a run. Clearly in games where we think we will be playing on the counter more then this front 3 makes a lot of sense with their pace.

I think Amad will get back to his aggressive attacking play soon and we need to remember he’s spent the past year playing as a wing back as well as playing in AFCON, I think Cunha and Amad either side of Sesko with Bruno in behind is the best front four we have and I just see it as Carrick trying to let Sesko progress without too much pressure like Hojlund had on him.

 

[ItDoesntEvenMata]

Replace Bruno with Cunha? Never happen except for an injury.

No I meant Cunha up top with Amad and Mbeumo either side, rather than Mbeumo through the middle . Bruno still at 10

That is if we are playing those three rather than getting Sesko in

 

[Idxomer]

I was just going through all of their goals this season, and hardly any of them came from the usual wide forward play. It feels like they all need re-coaching in how to play that role. Amad's play is usually fine till he reaches the final third, where he often looks hesitant to pull the trigger. He has also been unlucky with some good saves and blocks lately. Cunha finally looked good out wide in the last couple of games, so there's a cause for optimism there. I don't see Mbeumo out wide; he's a very poor dribbler. His best role was the one he had under Amorim.

 

[Grande]

I get the same impression about less "fluidity" in our game when Sesko is playing. However, the question is what we're getting in return - because fluidity itself isn't an objective. Team can pass the ball around nicely, but pose no threat whatsoever. I'm not saying that's the case for us, but we are certainly getting more output from Bruno and Cunha who are the ones who often break out of the game rhythm.


Let's for the sake of an argument assume Sesko can't play more than 60' at full pace. I don't buy the idea he is more impactful from bench for the last 30 instead of starting 60, because
A) we've seen him consistently getting at the end of chances (even late Amorim era)
B) the alternative in Mbuemo is not working at all
C) playing with conventional striker changes the team shape and attacking patterns completely.

Point C does not even require Sesko to bang a goal per game, but him being a nuance for the opposition opens up space and provides second balls to chase by the remaining attackers. This is my main argument, not Sesko goalscoring form (which will fluctuate). Sesko has been consistently good in his general play and getting at the end of chances, while Mbuemo looks regularly overwhelmed (for the lack of a better word).

Few games ago we played with all 4 of Cunha, Bruno, Mbuemo and Amad coming inside and clogging the central areas. We've been much better since Cunha was deployed in "holding width" role rather than "cut inside and shoot" Mantra. I believe similar effect we'll get playing Sesko up front, it will add a dimension to our game. Right now we look still quite flat.

You make good points, and are probably right. Particularily your point a) that Sesko did tend to get into finishes starting for Amorim. And he did score a brace starting for Fletcher, didn’t he?

I would certainly like to see us start Cunha - Sesko - Amad for a game or two and see how our game control and chance production works out in the first hour. But I wouldn’t be shocked if we se more or less the same match development as we do now.

 

[Borys]

You make good points, and are probably right. Particularily your point a) that Sesko did tend to get into finishes starting for Amorim. And he did score a brace starting for Fletcher, didn’t he?

I would certainly like to see us start Cunha - Sesko - Amad for a game or two and see how our game control and chance production works out in the first hour. But I wouldn’t be shocked if we se more or less the same match development as we do now.

That is correct. I’ve been defending Sesko most of December because he was doing a lot of good things and was about 2 goals down on his xG, so it was a small gamble to keep playing him and just be a bit more patient. This paid off of course, but my point is we look better with him up top regardless if he scores or not. I had no issue with Mbuemo playing as he was still scoring, but now it looks like Carrick is forcing this setup without clear benefit.

 

[sillwuka]

Cunha needs to stay wide left as he actually has a chance to get on the ball and run at defenders.
I think it's time to start Sesko and rotate Amad/Bryan.

 

[RobbieBerns]

Start the striker as the striker. Start Cunha out on the left. It’s between Amad and Mbeumo on the right. Accept that a good player has to start on the bench, and it’s bullshit to always default to Sesko with his recent goal scoring form.

 

[Olecurls99]

Amad had 2 goals and 2 assists all season.

I see absolutely every reason why he doesn’t deserve to be starting ahead of Mbuemo.

Antony had very good general play too and was a brilliant out ball under pressure, but was hounded out of the club for his low productivity. Amad this season has been far below the required standard for a left forward, even post Amorim.

Yeah we've gone back to defensive football so Amad as an out and out top team player is struggling. Shocker.

Drop him and bring back Elanga and Lingard and let's West Ham our way to the league title.

 

[RealRedRunner]

I think neither Mbueno or Amad have been at the same level since returning from AFCON. Either lost the rhythm or are a bit knackered. Sesko's first season in the Prem was always going to be a transition.. but he's doing very well. Upgrade on Rasmus for sure.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Yeah we've gone back to defensive football

As opposed to?

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

I think Carrick is doing the right thing starting our three best attackers and letting Sesko and Zirkzee get cameos. Sesko has done very well recently but he's been very well managed. Next season he will get loads of starts.

Been disappointed with Amad though, he's such a talented player but not had a good season.

 

[cyril C]

…. Why does Sesko need to learn from the bench? He’s our most inform goalscorer, and you’re dropping your most inform goalscorer to the bench to accommodate a player who doesn’t play upfront and hasn’t scored in his last 5+ games. Drop Amad or Mbeumo and put one of them in the right. I promise its okay to drop one of these underperformers.

The simple fact that Sesko is much more effective when coming in as sub, Vs starting the game. I am not saying he cannot start, obviously 10-20 games to share the 60-game season. But again, he was, and will probably be so for a while, more effective as super-sub. isn't that learning from the bench, until he knows what to do?

 

[bosnian_red]

There's a few factors at play. I do agree we play better with Sesko up top, natural striker and all that. But there's definitely something in the sharp change from Mbeumo to Sesko as a sub being so hard for teams to handle.

The other factor that I suspect might be the biggest one is just how Carrick wants us to play. We all know we have a fitness advantage over most teams due to the lack of cup games. So he wants first halves to be controlled, measured, make sure we don't give much away as we know we'll generally have more energy in the 2nd half of games. And then in the 2nd half we open up more and make full use of that energy and create more, score more regardless of players. He doubles down on that then with the Sesko impact sub. Our 2nd halves have been better pretty much every game apart from the Newcastle away game (midweek game for us so we lose that advantage... Even though we had a man up).

The 2 games Sesko started also followed the same pattern (Newcastle and palace). Slow, tight first half with very few chances for either team. Second half opened up with more risks.

 

[Maticmaker]

Mbeumo is best as part of a front two that play off one another (maybe a trial outing with Zirkzee?)
At Brentford there were limited options that dictated such choices, but we have a wider scope and Carrick is still persisting (or maybe being forced) too operate with a front 3 (out of 4) at the moment, but who are all to some extent disconnected.

Cunha is perhaps our most potent (individual) striker, that can get us a goal at the right time, but he really operates most of the time as a 'lone wolf', and at times that is what arguably presents our greatest disconnect.

Amad can cut in from the right, or go down the line, if Sesko is occupying the central (between the posts) position. Amad is also learning his defensive duties are important too.

Sesko's confidence is growing the energy he possess when being substituted on for the last 20 or so minutes, causes real problems for defences with his speed and agility and an increasingly deft touch in front of goal.

For me its all 'in the mix', which gets more complicated when Dorgu is back.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

It’s a pretty simple fix to me. Drop Amad, put Mbeumo in his natural position and start Sesko.

I know Amad is massively popular with the fanbase but he’s been poor for the majority of this season and shouldn’t be near the starting 11.

 

[The Cat]

It’s a pretty simple fix to me. Drop Amad, put Mbeumo in his natural position and start Sesko.

I know Amad is massively popular with the fanbase but he’s been poor for the majority of this season and shouldn’t be near the starting 11.

Big Amad fan but he needs a spell on the bench

 

[Rockets Redglare]

Big Amad fan but he needs a spell on the bench

Same, I think he’s great but it’s just not happening for him at the minute.

 

[Borys]

Mbeumo is best as part of a front two that play off one another (maybe a trial outing with Zirkzee?)
At Brentford there were limited options that dictated such choices, but we have a wider scope and Carrick is still persisting (or maybe being forced) too operate with a front 3 (out of 4) at the moment, but who are all to some extent disconnected.

Cunha is perhaps our most potent (individual) striker, that can get us a goal at the right time, but he really operates most of the time as a 'lone wolf', and at times that is what arguably presents our greatest disconnect.

Amad can cut in from the right, or go down the line, if Sesko is occupying the central (between the posts) position. Amad is also learning his defensive duties are important too.

Sesko's confidence is growing the energy he possess when being substituted on for the last 20 or so minutes, causes real problems for defences with his speed and agility and an increasingly deft touch in front of goal.

For me its all 'in the mix', which gets more complicated when Dorgu is back.

This is a good overview of options. With one remark, I don't think Dorgu back is going to complicate anything. If he can reach similar level to how he was performing pre-injury, he easily takes the right wing spot since both Amad and Mbuemo look poor now. Cunha won't be dropped on current form.

It's actually good to point out we only have 4 attackers (5th being Dorgu) that rotate between 3 spots in front of Bruno, and we still make this work. Meaning unprecedented, paper-thin attacking formation.

 

[gerdm07]

No I meant Cunha up top with Amad and Mbeumo either side, rather than Mbeumo through the middle . Bruno still at 10

That is if we are playing those three rather than getting Sesko in

Okay. The problem with that is Cunha is hitting some good form and moving him up top could change his form.

 

[Shinjch]

When I am watching it, the team seems to play as more of a 442 than any sort of front 3. I am relatively happy with how the front four has been performing since Carrick took over, think he has us set up much better than we were. Saving the big, strong and fast fella as an option against tiring teams has proved successful too.

The key really is that when Bruno has the ball in space that he has options. We are well set up to give him that.

 

[Yagami]

I think Cunha and Amad have to start. They are our only players who can consistently dribble their full back, which helps open up deep defences if we are pinning teams back, and helps get us up the pitch faster for counters. Cunha has completed 38 dribbles this season, and Amad has completed 36. The next best are Dalot with 16 and Bruno with 15, so there's a huge drop-off after Cunha and Amad. Mainoo has completed 11 in significantly less minutes, so maybe he'd be 3rd had he played more as he has it in his locker, too.

They're also two of our better players at shielding the ball under pressure, which helps the teams composure as a whole. Cunha especially has improved recently in terms of playing in congested spaces.

Amad has struggled since returning from AFCON, and I'd be in favour of dropping him if we had another player capable of providing what he does at his best, but I don't think we do. Mbeumo is a decent goal threat and can produce a nice cross, but he can't dribble, his touch is often poor, he loses the ball under pressure a lot, and I just think our width out right would become nonexistent as he likes getting in the box whereas, with Amad, he likes keeping the width so he can run at his FB. Then there's Lacey - who I like - but he's not been in the squad recently. So, even out of form, I think having Amad out right is more beneficial to the team overall.

As for the CF position, Sesko has earned a start, but the news coming out now that we've been being cautious with his minutes means he may still not be ready to start come our next game. If that's the case, I'm echoing @Waynne 's post about giving Zirkzee a start or two.

 

[DrRodo]

Mbeumo should be benched, i don't understand managers when insist on players who are just not in good form, also his best position is on the right. But right now, Amad offers much more on the right because hes got a great engine and offers a lot in defense.

 

[bb8]

I think Cunha and Amad have to start. They are our only players who can consistently dribble their full back, which helps open up deep defences if we are pinning teams back, and helps get us up the pitch faster for counters. Cunha has completed 38 dribbles this season, and Amad has completed 36. The next best are Dalot with 16 and Bruno with 15, so there's a huge drop-off after Cunha and Amad. Mainoo has completed 11 in significantly less minutes, so maybe he'd be 3rd had he played more as he has it in his locker, too.

They're also two of our better players at shielding the ball under pressure, which helps the teams composure as a whole. Cunha especially has improved recently in terms of playing in congested spaces.

Amad has struggled since returning from AFCON, and I'd be in favour of dropping him if we had another player capable of providing what he does at his best, but I don't think we do. Mbeumo is a decent goal threat and can produce a nice cross, but he can't dribble, his touch is often poor, he loses the ball under pressure a lot, and I just think our width out right would become nonexistent as he likes getting in the box whereas, with Amad, he likes keeping the width so he can run at his FB. Then there's Lacey - who I like - but he's not been in the squad recently. So, even out of form, I think having Amad out right is more beneficial to the team overall.

As for the CF position, Sesko has earned a start, but the news coming out now that we've been being cautious with his minutes means he may still not be ready to start come our next game. If that's the case, I'm echoing @Waynne 's post about giving Zirkzee a start or two.

What site did you use to find the dribbling stats?

 

[Yagami]

What site did you use to find the dribbling stats?

Whoscored originally, but I've just checked other sites to compare and it's the same for them, too.

 

[Dominos]

It’s a pretty simple fix to me. Drop Amad, put Mbeumo in his natural position and start Sesko.

I know Amad is massively popular with the fanbase but he’s been poor for the majority of this season and shouldn’t be near the starting 11.

Big Amad fan but he needs a spell on the bench

Does anyone on here remember he already dropped Amad against Palace and Newcastle, and we got the Cunha-Sesko-Mbeumo front 3 people were asking for, and everyone complained we were still shit.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

Does anyone on here remember he already dropped Amad against Palace and Newcastle, and we got the Cunha-Sesko-Mbeumo front 3 people were asking for, and everyone complained we were still shit.

It doesn’t change the fact that Amad has comfortably been the worst out of the four of them this season.

 

[The Cat]

Does anyone on here remember he already dropped Amad against Palace and Newcastle, and we got the Cunha-Sesko-Mbeumo front 3 people were asking for, and everyone complained we were still shit.

Everyone is a hell of a stretch.

 

[Dominos]

It doesn’t change the fact that Amad has comfortably been the worst out of the four of them this season.

I agree.

I'd still probably try Cunha-Sesko-Amad since it's a combo we've not tried yet, and start rotating the under-performer from there each game so everyone knows they have to perform to keep their place.

As much as Amad could do with some time on the bench, he's at least already tasted being dropped from the team - I don't think Mbeumo is going to improve by being rewarded for his poor performances with an automatic start every game.

 

[Cnaiür urs Skiötha]

Cunha has to be the first name on the team sheet in the attacking positions