We will never win the league with Bruno Fernandes in the team...

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manutddjw

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Our fans are weird. It's like some try to prove they're the biggest fans by sticking by awful players who have no business being here and then criticizing players who actually contribute to the team.

Wout has been praised for running around, Lingard got a pass for having 3 good months in 7 years, Anderson got less grief then he should've for being a character. Yet I've seen De Gea, Rashford, Rooney, Van Persie, Giggs and now Fernandes get stick for having a poor game.
 

ErikElevenHag

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Firstly i'm a HUGE fan of Casemiro. But in a thread where United fans are going in two footed on Bruno cos he had a stinker. I merely pointed out that most united players had a stinker and should shoulder the blame including the two players suggested (Casemiro and Varane) as being better wearers of the armband.

And you reply with a couple of outlier examples of Keane getting sent off (surely Casemiro was also sent off just weeks ago so what's the point?) and Rio being on the same pitch during a hammering proves what exactly? And it's my post that's knee jerk and laughable? :lol: I actually wished someone had been sent off. At least it would have showed a bit of a fight and at the very least given us an excuse for the hiding we got.

I also have no idea why you felt it necessary to point out we will finish above them and have more silverware. We are in agreement on this. I never claimed otherwise. I merely mentioned it seemed a strange time to be championing their cause. They were also culpable for the mess of yesterdays second half. Casemiro, has been great this season and might well end up as Captain material. Though I think currently his lack of English probably hampers his chances, whereas Varane seems a bit quiet and reserved for the captainship. But you don't need the armband to galvanize and show leadership and there was pretty evidence of any of that from anyone second half yesterday was the only point I was making.

But you know what is most knee jerk and laughable? It's all the shocking abuse that Bruno has received from not only the ABU media (Neville, Sutton) but also United fans, He's been singled out in the most horrible way from all corners. I've seen calls for him to receive huge lengthy ban for a petulant minor push of a linesman that pushed him first. It's mental.
Rio was more the culpable that day. M
He misjudged the cross in the first, terrible headed clearance which lead to the penalty that got Evans sent off, completely out of position for the third after misreading the game and left his man to drift back post for the fourth. But guess what people have bad games.

The part that's laughable is that you said we have no one who can grab the team and stop us getting hammered, but the players you mentioned both have been involved in multiple stinkers over the years. You're just falling short of re-writing history.

You say the games involving Keane are outliers, why isn't this an outlier for Casemiro and Varane? I'd say the body of work over the season suggests it most definitely is.

No argument from me on the Bruno one. Guys a superstar for us.
 

Rightnr

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Our fans are weird. It's like some try to prove they're the biggest fans by sticking by awful players who have no business being here and then criticizing players who actually contribute to the team.

Wout has been praised for running around, Lingard got a pass for having 3 good months in 7 years, Anderson got less grief then he should've for being a character. Yet I've seen De Gea, Rashford, Rooney, Van Persie, Giggs and now Fernandes get stick for having a poor game.
Support your manager at all cost mentality basically.

Nothing is more oblivious than one that doesn't want to see.

Saw it with Rooney, OGS and now Bruno. Although Bruno can still play his part but he either needs to skip the big games (and for that we need plenty of quality reinforcements) or he needs great players around him but we're going the Maguire way again.
 

lex talionis

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We have a very thin squad and that’s taking its toll, it’s not a new thing here. The last time we had a full and proper squad was in the 00s.
The abuse Bruno is taking here is a disgrace. Everyone knows we have a thin squad -- we don't even have a single proper CF! -- and everyone knows that Bruno has been one of our better players this season and played virtually every minute of every game.
 

VivaObertan

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The 2 games vs Barcelona and Newcastle?

I suppose he was good vs Barcelona to be fair. Don't think he was great vs Newcastle personally.
Barca, Barca, City, Arsenal this calendar year and we're only 10 weeks in!

Against Newcastle I didn't think any of the front 6 were particularly great; they just got the job done and I don't mind that at all.
 

KikiDaKats

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The abuse Bruno is taking here is a disgrace. Everyone knows we have a thin squad -- we don't even have a single proper CF! -- and everyone knows that Bruno has been one of our better players this season and played virtually every minute of every game.
Abusing our players is a long standing tradition at this club and as much as I don’t condone it, clubs the size of us tend to behave badly. You’ve seen the same at City, Liverpool, Barca, Madrid, etc calling out their best players and wanting rid after one bad result.
That’s why it takes an individual with great mental fortitude to play for these top club, ability alone is not enough. I’ve called Rashford brain dead I must confess during games but the emotions get to me. So, I try not to judge fans because football means different things to different people. I’m also sure Bruno has heard much worse on the pitch from both opponents and team mates.

I tend to prefer the football discussion centred around the ball on the pitch and how it is manipulated to win games.
 

Lemoor

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The thing is City is on a downward trend as we have been told by everyone.

City/Pep have enough on the bank to say once upon a time they were better but now they are not that good.

Also nowhere has city Shipped 17 goals in 3 games away from home

United have no such pedigree in the bank, and have already shipped over 17 goals in 3 games.

Losing away games is not the issue but how you lose them is the main pointer.

Evidently, they are second + those away stats as you say it, show they are not that good.

Meaning when they get good as Pep has done over time, they will reach another top level.
What downward trend are you talking about? What does that even mean? Who is everyone exactly? Are we on an upward trend because of a horrible previous game and previous season now and does it mean we will start winning those games soon? How can Pep even improve his team, when he has no Bruno to get rid of?

Also, we're still in Bruno thread and why we are apparently a shit team because of him. Not only he's at fault for us not winning more away games against top 11 after 25 games, but also because of him we conceded 17 goals in a very important stat of "goals conceded when playing away against 2nd, 5th and 9th team in the league"? Is there legitimately anything that the "Maguire of our midfield" is not at fault for?
 

mark clatternburg

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I assume you're referring to Bruno, if you're going to slag someone off at least spell their name right
Yes, Bruno. Sorry for the spelling mistake. He’s not alone, sh*ihouserry is rife throughout the game, but he takes cheating to a new level.
 

Licha-Vidic

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What downward trend are you talking about? What does that even mean? Who is everyone exactly? Are we on an upward trend because of a horrible previous game and previous season now and does it mean we will start winning those games soon? How can Pep even improve his team, when he has no Bruno to get rid of?

Also, we're still in Bruno thread and why we are apparently a shit team because of him. Not only he's at fault for us not winning more away games against top 11 after 25 games, but also because of him we conceded 17 goals in a very important stat of "goals conceded when playing away against 2nd, 5th and 9th team in the league"? Is there legitimately anything that the "Maguire of our midfield" is not at fault for?
Listen me out, at least you pass your arguments as a sober mind in this thread.

1. This thread was made in Oct 2022. Not after Liverpool game, so it's something that has detected by others long before.

2. It's 100% true we have not won a league title with Bruno in the team up to now as the title describes.

And we try to make a case that if we need to go to the next level of winning championship and champion league you need more in Midfield. ------Same argument as ( Same as Rashford not being a striker, we need a competent proven striker to lead our line for us to achieve genuine consistent glory) Rashford is inverted winger we know that. This also can be said to be right.

3. Now to anyone supporting the notion of Bruno being the weak-link in our midfield is founded on, generally we play with 2 man midfield when he's on the team. He not a midfielder per say.

OP called him a Pseudo midfielder, abit dramatic but you get the picture. Bruno is like a second striker.
THIS IS ENTIRELY ON WHERE HE'S POSITIONED IN THE PITCH.

It has nothing to do with his abilities first.

4. Bruno abilities now compound the issue more, let's discuss his abilities..

a). Bruno can not hold on the ball for more than 5 seconds when pressed. Either he releases the ball immediately or he's dispossessed or he fakes a fall down. He's turnover in the Midfield is huge. That's why he play acts frequently.

b). Bruno can not dribble through the Midfield. He's not a ball carrier. When it's not a counter Attack, Bruno can not carry the ball from midfield to attacking position by himself.

You saw how FDJ would find a way to dribble in Midfield during our game with Barca. Bruno has no such skillset. Or how Bernado Silva/KDB progresses the ball in city or how Odergaard does for Arsenal evade tackles and make a good pass thereafter.

c). Bruno is not physical enough. When physicality comes into play in midfield battles, Bruno is the least performer in our team. As much as Fred as his deficiencies he gets stuck in Midfield battles, he might not win all the balls but he's in the tackles and those fights. Meaning we have less midfield body by virtue of his positioning then also less body to do tackles when need be.


d). Bruno is not a controller or ball recycler. We all know this, it has been documented immensely. Bruno when he gets ball instantly he looks for Hollywood passes, we all know Hollywood passes 90% don't go as intended.

His opposite is Eriksen. We know how Eriksen does, his composure on the ball, and brain on when to attack or just control the tempo of the game.


Now when you put all this into play we are sure to get a weak midfield, an open midfield when playing against better midfielders and lack of possession when playing against possessive teams, his positives we become transition team, counter attack team, games become basketball end to end.

Can all this be supported by anyone..

I'm confident Ten Hag has detected this, that's why Bruno is being pushed to the wings.

In as much as we may complain about Wout, the manager who we all agree is the best man for the job ever since 2013, can see what Wout brings to team is more superior to what Bruno brings in that number 10 position.

It's not a coincidence mate, it's not. Yes we agree Wout is not the required level to play such a position for Man United but Bruno also is not.

If Bruno was competent enough, Ten Hag wouldn't play Wout there. As sad as it seems. We know is a honest and genuine human being.

My best example for this was...

If Casemiro and Scot are playing same time, WE CAN NOT see Scot playing number 6 while Casemiro is out of position to number 10.

Why because there is no one better as a number 6 in the team than Casemiro. He's the specialist of that number.

5. Why Bruno is the Maguire of our Midfield. - This an easy analogy.. as we the fans wanted to be a team that keeps the ball, and PLAYS from the back Maguire became a very hard player to explain. He looked like a competent defender people had different opinions of him as a player, but it was a correct observation that for us to be comfortable at the back, be able to withstand pressing well we needed a defender who was capable of playing in such a way.

Even with Varane next to Maguire (last season) still playing from the back became a very big problem. We needed to sign Licha for us to see how a competent defender brings to the table. Now we can agree with Maguire we wouldn't have moved to the next level.

Even with Maguire we used to win games, but now we see what a competent defender brings to the teams play...

Now with Bruno is same, we have signed Casemiro ( like Varane last season to partner Maguire) but the Midfield issues remain.

We don't control football matches, we still do sub 40% possession for us to win big games in OT. (Only Barca we had above 40% possession, all arsenal, city, Liverpool we had below 40% possession at HOME and away we know what happened with below 40% possession), we still get overrun in Midfield, we still play transition counter attacking football.

This is the analogy that, for us to move to the next level we need a more competent midfielder next to Casemiro.

I guarantee you if we sign a 'Odergaard' type of player the team will be transformed immediately.

I believe in Ten Hag 100% because he's the only manager/person how has shown me that he see's this big problem in the team for how it is by pushing Bruno out of that Midfield even in big games, but it's negated by Bruno having no other skills to play in wings that why we become unbalanced.

Ten Hag prefers the unbalanced play than being overrun with turnovers.

So I'm 100% sure the manager will find a solution to the problem, and as it seems it's another player who will be bought to play that position as Wout is doing it now.

I hope I have explained myself well
 
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Stacks

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I said it in his performance thread.

He is the Maguire of our midfield.

He looks like he does good job against average teams but when it comes to the highest quality football games, Bruno is one big liability.


And because benching Sancho & Garnacho is easier than benching Bruno.


Ten Hag is really confused on where to play him, he will try him as false 9, it fails, then he will let him go.

If Wout can take his number that easily then we need to find a 24 year old 'Odergaard' and replace him in the summer.

All the hammerings we have received since 2020, have been attributed to open midfield. We've tried to sort the midfield issue with Casemiro, Eriksen but still deficiency persist.

How can you be giving out 7-10 clear cut chances to City/Liverpool/Arsenal teams?

All this goals 90% are scored inside our box meaning we've been wide opened.

Funny thing is us, we don't open teams that way, even 'poor teams'

Ten Hag has scored only 4 goals in one match, against Villa.

We struggle to score more goals but we are extremely fragile to concede more goals.

All this is brought by having a weak midfield.



Look at our away record, we can't hold a game in better teams away from home. Why playing midfield 2.

Ten Hag can try all the magic he needs but until he disposes Bruno and we revert back to 433 we will never win big titles, as we can't win big away matches.

He got an 7.27 rating home vs Liverpool, 7.75 in the Arsenal win, 9.16 vs Spurs, was pretty solid in the world cup, a 7.16 home vs City, 7.22 + 7.4 vs Newcastle. Maybe you are going overboard?
 

Maticmaker

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There is only Casemiro, and he has probably said , correctly, to ETH that it shouldn't happen in his first season and he feels his English isn't good enough ( albeit Portugese and Spanish cover most of the team). Varane is injury prone, a GK cannot communicate enough.
So ETH has taken the pragmatic approach an tried to turn it into a positive by stressing 'we are all in this together', no scapegoats. Under the circumstances with no obvious alternative, he's probably right.
This is not about scapegoats, Bruno has a lot to offer, but not as captain of aside competing in the EPL.
What about Martinez, his 'mind set' is more suited to the PL?
 

hmchan

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He got an 7.27 rating home vs Liverpool, 7.75 in the Arsenal win, 9.16 vs Spurs, was pretty solid in the world cup, a 7.16 home vs City, 7.22 + 7.4 vs Newcastle. Maybe you are going overboard?
As far as I see these ratings are obtained from whoscored, and this is exactly why opinions are so divided. Bruno is a specialist in putting up numbers because he makes high risk passes all the time, which are unreasonably rewarding in these statistical models. The perfect example is our home defeat against Villa last season, in which Bruno recorded 10 key passes and the highest rating in the team. Fact is he had completely lost composure in that game and kept giving the ball away with his trademark hollywood passes, not to mention he missed a penalty before the full-time whistle. He was unequivocally the worst performer on the pitch.

For the games you mention, I have looked into the ratings given by fans here: vs Liverpool 6.7, vs Arsenal 7.3, vs Spurs 8.2, vs City 7.7, vs Newcastle 4.8 & 7.0. He has been mediocre at best in these games and there are many many better performers. None of the MOMs was collected by him.
 

Buxton

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I was surprised that hes United captain. The leader in the team is clearly Casemiro , maybe hes not been there long enough, but hes totally captain material. If you're a young player its clear which one of those 2 would inspire you most and get you to follow them.
 

troylocker

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Bruno has all the qualities we need in a C/R AM. He's a great finishers, he's very direct with a great eye for what his teammates are doing (I like the direct types better than the dribbling ball recyclers myself) and he has a fantastic workrate.
For me he's as WC as they come at what he does. A key player for us going forward.

He and every other player in a Manchester United shirt played a horrible match against Liverpool on Sunday and he was part of that collective collapse, yes.

I can only name a couple of players better or around Bruno's level in Bruno's role in the world right now, and they are inconsistant as feck as well. In the PL Bruno, KDB and Odegaard are head and shoulder above anyone else.

PS! None of our attacking players played well serving under Ronaldo.
 

Lemoor

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I was surprised that hes United captain. The leader in the team is clearly Casemiro , maybe hes not been there long enough, but hes totally captain material. If you're a young player its clear which one of those 2 would inspire you most and get you to follow them.
Most sites still list Maguire as a captain. The reason Bruno has been de facto captain is purely because the only players that seem like fitting choices only joined this summer and Maguire has been demoted to 5th choice center back right now.
 

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As far as I see these ratings are obtained from whoscored, and this is exactly why opinions are so divided. Bruno is a specialist in putting up numbers because he makes high risk passes all the time, which are unreasonably rewarding in these statistical models. The perfect example is our home defeat against Villa last season, in which Bruno recorded 10 key passes and the highest rating in the team. Fact is he had completely lost composure in that game and kept giving the ball away with his trademark hollywood passes, not to mention he missed a penalty before the full-time whistle. He was unequivocally the worst performer on the pitch.

For the games you mention, I have looked into the ratings given by fans here: vs Liverpool 6.7, vs Arsenal 7.3, vs Spurs 8.2, vs City 7.7, vs Newcastle 4.8 & 7.0. He has been mediocre at best in these games and there are many many better performers. None of the MOMs was collected by him.
So MoTM is the minimum standard? Hardly any of our players play that well vs rivals. The only one is really Rashford. Our defence got ripped by City. We were dry vs Chelsea, Arsenal our defence was weak and they were on top of us but it was probably a tactical error. Truthfully Bruno has the same criticism Pogba had in is time here.
 

hmchan

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So MoTM is the minimum standard? Hardly any of our players play that well vs rivals. The only one is really Rashford. Our defence got ripped by City. We were dry vs Chelsea, Arsenal our defence was weak and they were on top of us but it was probably a tactical error. Truthfully Bruno has the same criticism Pogba had in is time here.
Many posters claim Bruno is one of our best players here and then. By this standard, winning an MOM (only among our team, not including the opponents) in at least one of these matches is a fair ask. He does not thrive in big matches as your numbers suggest to say the least.

I don't know how can you relate Bruno to Pogba in terms of criticism as comments on Bruno have been overwhelmingly positive until his antics last weekend. Don't get me wrong, I still regard Bruno as an important attacking player for us (given the others are Weghorst and Antony) and replacing him is certainly not our first priority, but at least it's time to acknowledge his limitations and rethink whether he's really a long-term solution if we want anything more than just a top 4 finish.
 

Pascal Quiff

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To answer the title, Bruno is simply not good enough for a sustained shot at the league. He is a supplementary attacker that would more than likely not get in any of the other top sides - City, Liverpool or Arsenal. He doesn't have the tactical or positional discipline to be an effective cog in a title-contesting side and his histrionics suggest a mental frailty, when things go against him.

All that being said, he is a very good player in his own right and against a certain standard of team.
 

lex talionis

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Abusing our players is a long standing tradition at this club and as much as I don’t condone it, clubs the size of us tend to behave badly. You’ve seen the same at City, Liverpool, Barca, Madrid, etc calling out their best players and wanting rid after one bad result.
That’s why it takes an individual with great mental fortitude to play for these top club, ability alone is not enough. I’ve called Rashford brain dead I must confess during games but the emotions get to me. So, I try not to judge fans because football means different things to different people. I’m also sure Bruno has heard much worse on the pitch from both opponents and team mates.

I tend to prefer the football discussion centred around the ball on the pitch and how it is manipulated to win games.
I’ve seen this kind of abuse by Barcelona and Madrid fans, but I’m surprised to learn that Liverpool and City fans have gone to gutter as well. I’m sure you’re right, but somehow it seems to me Liverpool fans are better than that — demanding a player be gotten rid of after one bad performance — and as for City, their fans are so few in number and their was club was irrelevant until about 10 years ago.

So Bruno puts in a bad performance on a day when everyone was shit. Hardly the end of the world. But his shitehousery did precede the match against Liverpool and I would like to see it cut down a bit. Just a bit, as shitehousery unfortunately has become an important part of the game, as Pep’s sides have proven, Barcelona has proven, Atletico and others.
 

Lemoor

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I'll try to get to entire thing... eventually, but will do it in few portions to make it at least slightly bit reasonable.

1. This thread was made in Oct 2022. Not after Liverpool game, so it's something that has detected by others long before.
2. It's 100% true we have not won a league title with Bruno in the team up to now as the title describes.
Obviously this is a longer argument, since singling him out for game against Liverpool only makes any sense because of captaincy, not for any gameplay related reasons. Obviously other players were more responsible for 7 goals that went in that he did, but "we'll never win the league with Casemiro, Martinez or Varane in the team" threads would be rightfully laughed out.
That's just not true. Thread title is a prediction, not a description. From our squad the only players it doesn't apply to are: de Gea, Heaton and Jones as far as I can see, but using this as a policy for who should club be built around would be beyond nonsensical.

And we try to make a case that if we need to go to the next level of winning championship and champion league you need more in Midfield. ------Same argument as ( Same as Rashford not being a striker, we need a competent proven striker to lead our line for us to achieve genuine consistent glory) Rashford is inverted winger we know that. This also can be said to be right.
3. Now to anyone supporting the notion of Bruno being the weak-link in our midfield is founded on, generally we play with 2 man midfield when he's on the team. He not a midfielder per say.
OP called him a Pseudo midfielder, abit dramatic but you get the picture. Bruno is like a second striker.
THIS IS ENTIRELY ON WHERE HE'S POSITIONED IN THE PITCH.
Any teams in the last decade that could legitimately challenge on multiple fronts at once didn't have a perfect XI completely specialised for 1 particular position archetype, but included a lot of players capable of playing multiple roles giving a massive tactical flexibility from game to game and massively shielding the team from negative effects of injury crisis.
Latter part is also not true, you can get average positions and heatmaps from Sofascore for example. They are massively varied for Bruno on a game by game basis, but absolutely he's nowhere near a typical second striker positionally.
 

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Many posters claim Bruno is one of our best players here and then. By this standard, winning an MOM (only among our team, not including the opponents) in at least one of these matches is a fair ask. He does not thrive in big matches as your numbers suggest to say the least.

I don't know how can you relate Bruno to Pogba in terms of criticism as comments on Bruno have been overwhelmingly positive until his antics last weekend. Don't get me wrong, I still regard Bruno as an important attacking player for us (given the others are Weghorst and Antony) and replacing him is certainly not our first priority, but at least it's time to acknowledge his limitations and rethink whether he's really a long-term solution if we want anything more than just a top 4 finish.
I probably agree with you to be honest. I just started to feel the tone in this thread changed to seem that people saw him as the main person who needed replacing when we have far more problems
 

slored1

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Monster when played as a 10. Shite on the left wing. Who would have thought?
 

Rightnr

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Captain performance today. Fair play and feck off Neville you slandering fool
 

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Of course we can win the league with Bruno in the team. He's fundamental to the way we play and if we actually had decent forwards on the same wave length as him then people would realise just how kneejerk they're being.
 

SemiPro

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I was at the game today and he was awful. Lost the ball in key areas and was making the wrong pass a lot of the time.

Had to pay a lot deeper today though because of the red card which doesn’t suit his game.
 

Yakuza_devils

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Sad to say I have to agree but Sancho and Antony looked worse. We have too many not good enough attackers
 

VivaObertan

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Very good thread. I agreed with the OP in many regards. @Rozay knows ball
Hahahahahahaha. What a miserable existence to race to your PC (assume you're never at the games) to bitch about Bruno whenever we don't win a game.

Was absolutely fine in the 1 man midfield role for 75-80 minutes until he visibly seized up, at which point he should've been subbed for Fred instead of Martinez or Garnacho.
 

El Jefe

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He makes me miss Scholes more than any player. Just compare Bruno's CM performance today to what we saw from Scholesy each week. That is the level that wins you leagues not Bruno's erratic spam ball.
 

Sandikan

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Usual mix of some brilliance, and some almost Pogba-esque utter reckless nonsense.

A silly flick giving them a fast break directly through our centre midfield was like a memory of the Pog's signature move. Just needed a bit of needlessly trying to hold off 3men first too.

Although he did take a ball outside our own area, lose it and almost give them a chance too.
 

Sandikan

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Sad to say I have to agree but Sancho and Antony looked worse. We have too many not good enough attackers
Sometimes it is worrying how little 70-80m buys isn't it?
Sancho seems a lot bigger problem to me though. Antony can at least lash a 20 yarder in and cross it. Works reasonably hard and has a bit of spikiness about him.
Sancho seems to lack any pace, drive or level of toughness you need as a United player.
 

RuudtheRed

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He’s had two consecutive poor games in the PL but some people just make it sound like he’s a horrible player for us, which isn’t the case. Playing him out of position doesn’t help either. Play him as a CAM and he’ll do fine. Today was way worse than usual though.
 

Dion

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He makes me miss Scholes more than any player. Just compare Bruno's CM performance today to what we saw from Scholesy each week. That is the level that wins you leagues not Bruno's erratic spam ball.
They're two totally different players. KdB's "erratic spam ball" has won City plenty of titles.

Our defensive midfielder not almost breaking an opposition players leg would be a much bigger help.
 

Lemoor

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They're two totally different players. KdB's "erratic spam ball" has won City plenty of titles.

Our defensive midfielder not almost breaking an opposition players leg would be a much bigger help.
Don't worry. I'm sure there will be a rationale here soon for why Casemiro's red was actually Bruno's fault.
 
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