We will never win the league with Paul Pogba in the team

Status
Not open for further replies.

breakout67

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
9,050
Supports
Man City
This thread still makes no sense. Most of the time you win the league by having quality all over the pitch, unless you are Ronaldo or Messi you aren't going to be the difference between winning and losing a league title.

Instead of trying to rename the club to Paul Pogba FC, filling the team with workhorses so he can prance around, we should get quality players and then Pogba won't have any excuses. You tend to find that when you have quality players all over the pitch they push each other to be better. Imagine a Roy Keane in our midfield, Pogba would sort himself out real quick because everytime he didn't he'd get rinsed.

I get the feeling that Pogba needs someone in his ear reminding him to fix up. I think Zlatan did that for him, and I never had problems with his consistency in his first season. I felt he was mostly good in his first season.
 

Gator Nate

Full Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
1,671
Location
Orlando, FL
This thread still makes no sense. Most of the time you win the league by having quality all over the pitch, unless you are Ronaldo or Messi you aren't going to be the difference between winning and losing a league title.

Instead of trying to rename the club to Paul Pogba FC, filling the team with workhorses so he can prance around, we should get quality players and then Pogba won't have any excuses. You tend to find that when you have quality players all over the pitch they push each other to be better. Imagine a Roy Keane in our midfield, Pogba would sort himself out real quick because everytime he didn't he'd get rinsed.

I get the feeling that Pogba needs someone in his ear reminding him to fix up. I think Zlatan did that for him, and I never had problems with his consistency in his first season. I felt he was mostly good in his first season.
This is actually why I don't believe we need a "major overhaul." Upgrading a few positions with talent and stronger personalities would pick up the other players that don't get shipped out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: langster

Jib

New Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
1,767
I get the feeling that Pogba needs someone in his ear reminding him to fix up. I think Zlatan did that for him, and I never had problems with his consistency in his first season. I felt he was mostly good in his first season.
And who reminding him to fix up during the world cup ? Himself like he did to the others frenchs players last summer ? Because he was their leader and everybody said it... not just the TV crew that followed the team during the competition but Deschamps and the players ;)

But it doesn't fit your agenda...
 

Jibbs

New Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Messages
2,238
Pogba is that typical spoilt modern footballer who doesn't give two hoots about dirtying his kit for a proverbial wet Tuesday night in Stoke. Play him in Champions league and call him only for games against big 6, and he'd be happiest. You don't win leagues with such players especially when they are your only point of creativity. For leagues you need players like David Silva, Ander Herrera, Kante... players who are hardworking and give their 100% for the team no matter how big or small is the occasion.
 

breakout67

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
9,050
Supports
Man City
And who reminding him to fix up during the world cup ? Himself like he did to the others frenchs players last summer ? Because he was their leader and everybody said it... not just the TV crew that followed the team during the competition but Deschamps and the players ;)

But it doesn't fit your agenda...
Deary me. It's the fecking World Cup, you've got to have some serious mental issues to not be up for that. Winning it is every player's dream.

Also everyone sees your projection when you accuse anyone that doesn't suck up to Pogba as having an agenda.

This is actually why I don't believe we need a "major overhaul." Upgrading a few positions with talent and stronger personalities would pick up the other players that don't get shipped out.
I don't think so either. I would say a leader at the back, a technically good right back and right winger will sort us out. If Herrera leaves then a new midfielder.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
14,179
Location
Flagg
This thread still makes no sense. Most of the time you win the league by having quality all over the pitch, unless you are Ronaldo or Messi you aren't going to be the difference between winning and losing a league title.

Instead of trying to rename the club to Paul Pogba FC, filling the team with workhorses so he can prance around, we should get quality players and then Pogba won't have any excuses. You tend to find that when you have quality players all over the pitch they push each other to be better. Imagine a Roy Keane in our midfield, Pogba would sort himself out real quick because everytime he didn't he'd get rinsed.

I get the feeling that Pogba needs someone in his ear reminding him to fix up. I think Zlatan did that for him, and I never had problems with his consistency in his first season. I felt he was mostly good in his first season.
I don't disagree wth much of this and (again, sigh) the thread title was a parody of the same thread title featuring Lukaku. One player can't stop you winning a league. Particularly when you struggle to even get into 4th in the first place.

I really don't think surrounding Pogba with better players would make that much difference to him as an individual though. We have some good players, and they do help, but more because they give him better options and share some of the pressure that is otherwise on him. Pogba has shown a lack of ability to listen to Sir Alex and Mourinho so I doubt a team mate would influence his mindset too much. Individuality can be a good thing in terms of self belief but it also has its drawbacks when it comes to a player's flaws. Imagine trying to tell Pogba he did something wrong in a game.

I disagree about his first season. I remember him having a hit and miss start, then having a good run of games up towards Christmas. Then there was the Liverpool home game where he was absolutely awful and he continued to underperform from there. In fairness our performances as a team dropped off from that point as well.

We can help but not sticking him out on the left wing and using him to his strengths, but ultimately with Pogba I think even with world class players around him, what you are going to get is maybe a few good runs of form a season and in between that a lot of performances that are not of anywhere near the same standard. Similar to Rooney, except Rooney could still win a game and score goals when he was playing poorly, and for some reason got constantly slated for the near exact same reasons Pogba gets praised, despite being a far more productive player in a far more succesful team.

I don't really agree with the "world class" tag, as a world class player is a potential difference maker in every game, not just one in five. When he plays well yes. When he plays badly he is less likely to win you a game than Scott McTominay.
 

breakout67

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
9,050
Supports
Man City
I don't disagree wth much of this and (again, sigh) the thread title was a parody of the same thread title featuring Lukaku. One player can't stop you winning a league. Particularly when you struggle to even get into 4th in the first place.

I really don't think surrounding Pogba with better players would make that much difference to him as an individual though. We have some good players, and they do help, but more because they give him better options and share some of the pressure that is otherwise on him. Pogba has shown a lack of ability to listen to Sir Alex and Mourinho so I doubt a team mate would influence his mindset too much. Individuality can be a good thing in terms of self belief but it also has its drawbacks when it comes to a player's flaws. Imagine trying to tell Pogba he did something wrong in a game.

I disagree about his first season. I remember him having a hit and miss start, then having a good run of games up towards Christmas. Then there was the Liverpool home game where he was absolutely awful and he continued to underperform from there. In fairness our performances as a team dropped off from that point as well.

We can help but not sticking him out on the left wing and using him to his strengths, but ultimately with Pogba I think even with world class players around him, what you are going to get is maybe a few good runs of form a season and in between that a lot of performances that are not of anywhere near the same standard. Similar to Rooney, except Rooney could still win a game and score goals when he was playing poorly, and for some reason got constantly slated for the near exact same reasons Pogba gets praised, despite being a far more productive player in a far more succesful team.

I don't really agree with the "world class" tag, as a world class player is a potential difference maker in every game, not just one in five. When he plays well yes. When he plays badly he is less likely to win you a game than Scott McTominay.
Not much to disagree with there. It's quite likely that Pogba is just this player fundamentally and finished developing. But I hold on to the hope that when other players show him up he gets an extra bit of motivation to perform. That happens quite a lot in football I think, where certain types of players raise the level of others. I can't help but think that this talk of 'getting the best out of Pogba' does a lot to feed his ego, when at Juventus and France none of this applies. He had a well defined role at Juventus involving both defence and attack, and he plays quite deep for France. I think that you have to be incredibly consistent to have the allowances that Pogba has gotten at United under Ole (which Pogba is not).
 

Falcow

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,338
Location
Dublin
Pogba is that typical spoilt modern footballer who doesn't give two hoots about dirtying his kit for a proverbial wet Tuesday night in Stoke. Play him in Champions league and call him only for games against big 6, and he'd be happiest. You don't win leagues with such players especially when they are your only point of creativity. For leagues you need players like David Silva, Ander Herrera, Kante... players who are hardworking and give their 100% for the team no matter how big or small is the occasion.
Except he rarely plays well against the top 6
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
14,179
Location
Flagg
Not much to disagree with there. It's quite likely that Pogba is just this player fundamentally and finished developing. But I hold on to the hope that when other players show him up he gets an extra bit of motivation to perform. That happens quite a lot in football I think, where certain types of players raise the level of others. I can't help but think that this talk of 'getting the best out of Pogba' does a lot to feed his ego, when at Juventus and France none of this applies. He had a well defined role at Juventus involving both defence and attack, and he plays quite deep for France. I think that you have to be incredibly consistent to have the allowances that Pogba has gotten at United under Ole (which Pogba is not).
Yeah, I don't really think feeding his ego is much of a problem, as I think his ego is just there regardless. It's part of his character. He had it at United when he was an 18 year old playing in the reserves. I can't put my finger on what goes wrong for him. I don't think it is laziness or not caring enough. They are easy lables. He lacks focus/concentration when he is playing poorly for some reason or other. He beats to his own drum so when it's not going well he just looks like a free spirit who's out of touch with what's going on in the game itself.

I really think the best you can do is play him in a role that focuses on what he's good at, and then focus on improving the rest of the team rather than trying to build it around him. This time last year I was more willing to lay blame on him because I think he has the potential to do so much better, but at this point I think he is doing his best and he just has his flaws. You can't blame it on Mourinho anymore or him being unhappy. I can't say he plays selfishly or is motivated by attention rather than winning games, because it no longer really adds up. When he does play well there are none of these problems and if it was down to selfishness or lack of respect for the team that wouldn't be the case.
 

Pughnichi

Full Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2016
Messages
906
The rest will be replaced, if they haven't already been. No point bringing them into this. Pogba, on the other hand, is an issue. A very expensive one.
Not a Pogba fan then? It’s utterly bizarre why anyone would want rid of our best player. Just makes no sense whatsoever
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2015
Messages
2,596
Location
Whalley Range
I think Pogba needs better players around him.

I'm not saying he doesn't have issues but having a couple of other stars in the team woulf push him - in a way that rooney, tevez and ronaldo seemed to thrive together getting the best out of each other.

Pogba for France is a different proposition because his French team mates are at his level and it bring out his best - then he returns to United to play with the likes of Matic, Hererra, Young etc.
 

Ali Dia

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
11,998
Location
Souness's Super Sub/George Weahs Talented Cousin
I think Pogba needs better players around him.

I'm not saying he doesn't have issues but having a couple of other stars in the team woulf push him - in a way that rooney, tevez and ronaldo seemed to thrive together getting the best out of each other.

Pogba for France is a different proposition because his French team mates are at his level and it bring out his best - then he returns to United to play with the likes of Matic, Hererra, Young etc.
This. I’m sure pogba being easily our best outfield player on his day is probably sick of looking around at the dross around him and isn’t committing his future here until the club get some better talent in here to compliment him. He can’t win us matches every week but his bottom level wouldn’t be as big of a deal with better team mates, I think he’s probably as frustrated as the fans are with the past few years and the club probably promised him the world when he signed. he could still easily get a move to better teams based on what he’s shown here so who’s wrong? Pogba drives me mental but that’s the truth.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
14,179
Location
Flagg
Not a Pogba fan then? It’s utterly bizarre why anyone would want rid of our best player. Just makes no sense whatsoever
I don't want rid of him but I wish people would just stop casually labelling him our best player. Was he our best player the other night?

De Gea has won our player of the year what, four years in a row. He wasn't our best player last season, or the season before. This season he has been in patches but definitely not with any consistency at all.

He's sometimes our best player when he plays well...but so is De Gea, Rashford, Martial, Lukaku, etc. He's more talented than any of those but his bad performances are also worse than most of them.

Part of the problem and hyperbole around Pogba is this need people have to build him up as things he isn't. There are two seperate threads in this forum calling him the best midfielder in the world. No one who is inconsistent is ever going to be the best in the world. I don't dislike the guy but lets start being realistic
 
Last edited:

Ashley R1+O

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 3, 2016
Messages
2,174
@noodlehair you keep saying "play him in his best position" or mentioning getting the best out of him, are we even sure what that is at this point? He's struggled behind a front striker, gets isolated on the left of a front three and just roasted mercilessly when not in possession, completely failed under Mourinho as a double pivot and playing in front of the back four seems to produce sulky "I wanna be somewhere else" performances.

Does he even have a best position that (as you mentioned above) will motivate him and get him to his best level? (Before solving all of these other problems lumped in on top). His best position seems to be just run him onto the field when we have the ball in the attacking third and then when we don't have the ball don't be on the field as there is rarely a point to him being there.

Finding a spot for him seems to break so many of the established combinations in the squad makeup around him. I get the whole "we need better players" thing but it seems to look like we need to suffocate the absolute guts out of nearly every part of the squad that nobody who is even remotely of promising quality can play and then hope for the best. It presents huge problems for attacking players like Martial/Rashford and Lukaku. Sanchez there is no point even talking about because he doesn't fit. There are so many "just up there somewhere" players in the squad to make up a front 3/4 yet we have an anchor striker in Lukaku. It doesn't really make sense that Lukaku not being a non-established role player probably needs to play due to where he is in the squad hierarchy.

I mentioned in the other thread re: your "best player" comment that McTominay gave probably one of the most complete performances I've seen this season from any of our midfielders, maybe even whole squad against Wolves. It is a genuine worry really when mixing all of this into a bowl and trying to get the best out of Pogba. How do you go "yeah so McTom off the ball ran to this spot here in front of everyone.....? Can't you do that?..." when every aspect of Pogba in the last three years has been "yeah I don't really run at all off the ball". I don't rally know what the solution is but it will take something pretty large to get the best out of him IMO, unless his own introspection kicks in and he finds something within himself in the next couple of seasons.
 

finneh

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
7,172
Yeah, I don't really think feeding his ego is much of a problem, as I think his ego is just there regardless. It's part of his character. He had it at United when he was an 18 year old playing in the reserves. I can't put my finger on what goes wrong for him. I don't think it is laziness or not caring enough. They are easy lables. He lacks focus/concentration when he is playing poorly for some reason or other. He beats to his own drum so when it's not going well he just looks like a free spirit who's out of touch with what's going on in the game itself.
I can only think that it's in his head, although sometimes I think he seems to put in less effort when he's having a poor game.

For example there was a.moment against Wolves that summed it up for me. He received the ball from deep and turned and began to run toward their half. It was the exact scenario that in his 9/10 performances he'd have sprinted 50+ yards and single handedly created a great counter attacking situation. However in this instance he merely jogged forwards, a Wolves player caught him up so he turned and played it backwards.

I also think it's a mentality issue because I don't believe his runs of good form are random. When Ole came in he was motivated as he had something to prove which coincided with his best period of form at the club. Likewise at the World Cup where he'd naturally be heavily motivated he played very well.

I really think the best you can do is play him in a role that focuses on what he's good at, and then focus on improving the rest of the team rather than trying to build it around him. This time last year I was more willing to lay blame on him because I think he has the potential to do so much better, but at this point I think he is doing his best and he just has his flaws. You can't blame it on Mourinho anymore or him being unhappy. I can't say he plays selfishly or is motivated by attention rather than winning games, because it no longer really adds up. When he does play well there are none of these problems and if it was down to selfishness or lack of respect for the team that wouldn't be the case.
The issue with this in my view is that the kind of player that Pogba is requires a team to be built around him. He requires the effort of the likes of Rashford, Lingard and Herrera to cover for his lack of pressing. He requires the defensive stability of Matic to cover for his lack of defensive awareness.

In my view to be able to build the kind of team that Pogba's poor games wouldn't cost us regularly we'd need to not only hugely improve our team, but also improve it in a way that protects his inadequacies. That balance is incredibly difficult in my view. A peak Vidal for Herrera and Carrick at his peak for Matic would do it of course... But if we had that midfield duo surely wed be better off with a great number 10 who scores 20 goals a season?
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
14,179
Location
Flagg
I love that there are still people taking the thread title literally.
I like that someone has made a parody thread about De Gea, of this thread, which will be even funnier if people in a years time start posting in that without realising it's a parody of this thread, which is a parody of another thread.
 

hobbers

Full Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
17,851
I think it's fairer to say:

We will never win the league if Pogba is our best midfielder.

He needs a Kante or a Pirlo around him. Matic isn't up to scratch.
 

Baxter

Full Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2010
Messages
11,448
He was poor, but just to put this in here.


Far bigger issues in the squad.
 

breakout67

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
9,050
Supports
Man City
Very strange to suggest that Pogba 'needs' a team built around him. Maybe they are ignoring that his best performances have come when he didn't have that luxury? Were Pirlo and Vidal no marks that would do the donkey work for Pogba...no. Pirlo was an amazing deep lying playmaker and Vidal was a box to box monster. Matuidi and Kante are no mugs either, Kante is the best ball winning midfielder in the world and Matuidi has gone from strength to strength in the twilight of his career.

Maybe this obsession with 'getting the best out of him' has led to our team being nowhere near up to scratch because we are constantly worried about players 'getting in the way' of him. Plenty were talking nonsense about Sanchez getting in his way, on what planet does an attacker secede to a midfielder. It's supposed to be the other way round, midfielders are there to support forwards.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
14,179
Location
Flagg
@noodlehair you keep saying "play him in his best position" or mentioning getting the best out of him, are we even sure what that is at this point? He's struggled behind a front striker, gets isolated on the left of a front three and just roasted mercilessly when not in possession, completely failed under Mourinho as a double pivot and playing in front of the back four seems to produce sulky "I wanna be somewhere else" performances.

Does he even have a best position that (as you mentioned above) will motivate him and get him to his best level? (Before solving all of these other problems lumped in on top). His best position seems to be just run him onto the field when we have the ball in the attacking third and then when we don't have the ball don't be on the field as there is rarely a point to him being there.

Finding a spot for him seems to break so many of the established combinations in the squad makeup around him. I get the whole "we need better players" thing but it seems to look like we need to suffocate the absolute guts out of nearly every part of the squad that nobody who is even remotely of promising quality can play and then hope for the best. It presents huge problems for attacking players like Martial/Rashford and Lukaku. Sanchez there is no point even talking about because he doesn't fit. There are so many "just up there somewhere" players in the squad to make up a front 3/4 yet we have an anchor striker in Lukaku. It doesn't really make sense that Lukaku not being a non-established role player probably needs to play due to where he is in the squad hierarchy.

I mentioned in the other thread re: your "best player" comment that McTominay gave probably one of the most complete performances I've seen this season from any of our midfielders, maybe even whole squad against Wolves. It is a genuine worry really when mixing all of this into a bowl and trying to get the best out of Pogba. How do you go "yeah so McTom off the ball ran to this spot here in front of everyone.....? Can't you do that?..." when every aspect of Pogba in the last three years has been "yeah I don't really run at all off the ball". I don't rally know what the solution is but it will take something pretty large to get the best out of him IMO, unless his own introspection kicks in and he finds something within himself in the next couple of seasons.
Yeah it is difficult. I'm not sure he has a best position as such, but I think what you don't want is him in a role which requires positional discipline, particularly defensively. I don't think he ignores the responsibilities that come with it as he'll usually stay in the right area of the pitch (apart from that Spurs game where he pretty much just told Mourinho to feck off), but he definitely isn't very good at it. He loses concentration and seems to start overthinking things or dithering/pratting around when he gets the ball.

I think the best role for him is to just play him behind the forwards and tell him to worry about attacking. I still don't think he'll be consistent but at least when he is playing well you know you are getting the best out of him and he's probably going to win the game for you against a lot of teams...and he will press players and take up useful positions when we dpon't have possession. Whenever he's playing well I don't really see him as a midfielder. More an attacking player. He doesn't control the game but he provides enough direct and indirect goal threat, and counter attacking ability, that you don't need a no10.

I mean at the moment, where we have him out on the left, and seem to be telling him to help provide width as well as help out in the middle. Even in form it's clearly going to hamper him, and more than likely it's going to contribute to him not being in form, because he's having to do things that really, he's never going to be very good at. I know Juventus played him on the left but they played in a different way to us and in a different league. THe way we're setting up at the moment it's impossible for him to be a threat on the break because the ball is never going to break or be played to him.

I think if you're saying that McTominay has given the best midfield performance for us this season (I'm not sure I agree but it was certainly the best of any of our midfielders recently), that highlights that the problem goes beyond Pogba. We are vacant in the middle of the pitch too often. We need two players in there and we keep trying to get away with having one. I don't think our midfielders are that bad but I also don't think they're anywhere near good or dynamic enough to pull off this diamond system we seem intent on sticking with. Pogba isn't the only one who can't get to grips with the positional side of it. Whenever we hit difficulties in games it leaves us horribly exposed as we have no way to regain some control and composure.
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
23,816
It doesn't matter what his top level is you don't build your team around someone that is inconsistent. Unfortunately for us we don't have another player capable of showing any consistency so all we can do is reduce our reliance on any one player switching it up as per form.

I do think if you put Pogba in a title challenging team he'd show great consistency such is his fair weather mentality.
 

noodlehair

"It's like..."
Joined
Apr 1, 2004
Messages
14,179
Location
Flagg
I can only think that it's in his head, although sometimes I think he seems to put in less effort when he's having a poor game.

For example there was a.moment against Wolves that summed it up for me. He received the ball from deep and turned and began to run toward their half. It was the exact scenario that in his 9/10 performances he'd have sprinted 50+ yards and single handedly created a great counter attacking situation. However in this instance he merely jogged forwards, a Wolves player caught him up so he turned and played it backwards.

I also think it's a mentality issue because I don't believe his runs of good form are random. When Ole came in he was motivated as he had something to prove which coincided with his best period of form at the club. Likewise at the World Cup where he'd naturally be heavily motivated he played very well.
Yeah that's a good point. I do remember thinking that the reason he was playing so much better in the world cup was simply because he wanted to win the world cup, which is a bit more motivating than wanting to finish 2nd instead of 4th, or 4th instead of 6th.

Either way I just don't think it's a problem that is going to be solved. We either live with it and just get the best out of him when we can, or preferably we build a team that can be succesful without him, and it's up to him whether he wants to be part of it. Maybe the motivation will be more consistent when he knows the rest of the team is capable of winning leagues, cups etc. and that he has to be at his best to be a part of it.

It was different under Jose as he was clearly disruptive, which meant you had to question whether his good runs of form were worth the hassle.


The issue with this in my view is that the kind of player that Pogba is requires a team to be built around him. He requires the effort of the likes of Rashford, Lingard and Herrera to cover for his lack of pressing. He requires the defensive stability of Matic to cover for his lack of defensive awareness.

In my view to be able to build the kind of team that Pogba's poor games wouldn't cost us regularly we'd need to not only hugely improve our team, but also improve it in a way that protects his inadequacies. That balance is incredibly difficult in my view. A peak Vidal for Herrera and Carrick at his peak for Matic would do it of course... But if we had that midfield duo surely wed be better off with a great number 10 who scores 20 goals a season?
I think he's a luxury player, but an extremely good one. I don't think you need to build a team around him. I just don't think you can expect him to be a specific part of a unit. You build a good team and then let him play in it, in the knowledge that it is still a good enough team without him.

I think if tyou try to build a team around him we are just going to be forever having these discussions about what his best role is, why he goes through such bad spells, whether he is kotivated enough, etc.

You can imagine him doing really well in some of Ferguson's teams for example, but it would be in part because those teams would also have Scholes, Keane, Ronaldo, Giggs, etc. He would have the ability to offer things even those players couldn't, but they could also control and win games in their own right.
 

Buster15

Go on Didier
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
9,384
Location
Bristol
Supports
Bristol Rovers
Pogba is that typical spoilt modern footballer who doesn't give two hoots about dirtying his kit for a proverbial wet Tuesday night in Stoke. Play him in Champions league and call him only for games against big 6, and he'd be happiest. You don't win leagues with such players especially when they are your only point of creativity. For leagues you need players like David Silva, Ander Herrera, Kante... players who are hardworking and give their 100% for the team no matter how big or small is the occasion.
Exactly. To win the PL you need a squad of players most of who will provide 8/10 performances week in week out. That is why Chelsea were so good under Mourinho.
 

Canagel

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
13,343
Very strange to suggest that Pogba 'needs' a team built around him. Maybe they are ignoring that his best performances have come when he didn't have that luxury? Were Pirlo and Vidal no marks that would do the donkey work for Pogba...no. Pirlo was an amazing deep lying playmaker and Vidal was a box to box monster. Matuidi and Kante are no mugs either, Kante is the best ball winning midfielder in the world and Matuidi has gone from strength to strength in the twilight of his career.

Maybe this obsession with 'getting the best out of him' has led to our team being nowhere near up to scratch because we are constantly worried about players 'getting in the way' of him. Plenty were talking nonsense about Sanchez getting in his way, on what planet does an attacker secede to a midfielder. It's supposed to be the other way round, midfielders are there to support forwards.
And the Juve/France midfields wouldn't have functioned without Pogbas creativity. It goes for both directions. Especially the French one where they didn't have a replacement for him.
Sanchez getting in his way is a proven fact from the heat maps. Plus the clear lack of cohesion in our football whenever they started together.
 
Last edited:

breakout67

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
9,050
Supports
Man City
And the Juve/France midfields wouldn't have functioned without Pogbas creativity. It goes for both directions. Especially the French one where they didn't have a replacement for him.
Of course, I'd be gobsmacked if a player that made it into Conte, Aleggri and Mourinho's team week in week out wasn't providing something important to the team. Pogba is not superman, he does well playing a role in a team, and I'd like for us to have a top team not one designed for him which will inevitably perform as inconsistently as him.
 

doriandun

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
169
I think Pogba needs better players around him.

I'm not saying he doesn't have issues but having a couple of other stars in the team woulf push him - in a way that rooney, tevez and ronaldo seemed to thrive together getting the best out of each other.

Pogba for France is a different proposition because his French team mates are at his level and it bring out his best - then he returns to United to play with the likes of Matic, Hererra, Young etc.
Frances full backs are not outstanding, Pavard is on par with Luke Shaw, their left back is slightly better than Young.

In the midfiled they have Kante, who is undoubtably the best in the world in his position, but Herrera is no slouch and offers similar qualities, maybe a peg lower, Matuidi, is their Martial, but with better off the ball movement and work ethic, Giroud is their Lukaku, and then you have M'Bappe, who is our Rashford, and not forgetting Griezmann who would equate to Linguard, or Sanchez if he can get his act togehter.

Where France without doubt are true class is central defence in Umtiti and Varane.

The problem is with his attitude, and it's why the likes of Rashford and Martial are also struggling.

What Ole has effectively done is given Pogba, carte blanche, to do as he pleases at the expense of the team, hey your a midfielder, but you do not have to press,or be positionally savvy, when you loose the ball ,just throw a tantrum, and get back in your own time, oh and when i play you as an attacking midfielder,the notion of you being part of the 1st line of defennce is not applicable to you.

Emery at Arsenal had a similar problem with Ozil and what did he do, that's right drop him to the bench, for the greater good of the team.With Ole constantly reiterating his intention to build a team around Pogba, just sends out the wrong message to his fellow professionals, i have never heard Pep or Klopp say they need to build a team around Salah or De Bruyne.

All it does is give Pogba an excuse to say well you did not build a team to my satisfaction, so why should i perform to a higher standard.

Without doubt he is a talent, but what people seem to conflate, is he was not the sole reason why Juve won 4 titles when he was there, or was even the deciding factor, as with the world cup, where he had 4 good games, not outstanding, and 4 below par games, he just needs to work 30% harder and maintain that form for a good portion of the season, Luke Shaw is a fine example.
 

Cantonagotmehere

Full Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
Charm City, MD
I really struggle to understand his play over the last few games. I am an optimist, but with him it's hard to believe the Real comments/situation have nothing to do with his dip in form. I want him to stay and be a huge part of United's comeback to the top, but it's getting to the point where I won't be sad if he is sold for a boat load of money. What a bummer.
 

Ibrahimorich

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
482
I agree. We're not going to win the league in the next couple of years and after that he'll be gone anyway :lol:
 

DSG

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2014
Messages
1,554
Location
A Whale’s Vagina
It doesn't matter what his top level is you don't build your team around someone that is inconsistent. Unfortunately for us we don't have another player capable of showing any consistency so all we can do is reduce our reliance on any one player switching it up as per form.

I do think if you put Pogba in a title challenging team he'd show great consistency such is his fair weather mentality.
This.

I don’t remember several long threads like this about Robson, Keane and Scholes. Probably because the internet didn’t really exist, but you get my point. If Pogba left today, his impact and performance would be way below those three legends. We keep waiting for him to be something he’s not. Flashes of absolute brilliance, no doubt, but if you need a leader on the field who will carry you to a win after going down 1-0 at Stoke in February in a cold, driving rain, he’s not your man.
 

NotoriousISSY

$10mil and I fecked it up!
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
15,279
Location
up north
I don't think us not winning the league with or without Paul Pogba is the issue.

As a collective, Manchester United has lost its way and its own identity. Pogba is currently part of that, but he's certainly at the lower end of the list of potential reasons imo.
 

Maticmaker

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
3,311
Pogba is a problem, because paraphrasing the nursery Rhythm " When he is good he is very, very good and when he is bad he is wicked". The problem being we never know which Paul Pogba will turn up.

Ole seems to be able to get more out of him than Jose did, but he still can't rely on him or depend on him to turn up. Its clear when Pauls' on his game so are United, but when he is off his game we are also 'off' and I believe he then becomes a liability by just remaining on the pitch. In such situations because his preponderance for trying to beat his man twice or even three times, then finishing up losing possession, usually in vulnerable areas, puts us at a disadvantage.

From recent experience, it would seem all that opponents have to do is man mark him, in order to just frustrate him until he loses it, he then becomes frustrated and wanders around and for the opposition 'job done'.

Ole will definitely earn his corn if he can get a good tune out of Pogba on a relatively consistent basis.
 

Revaulx

Full Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
3,953
Location
Saddleworth
I think he's a luxury player, but an extremely good one. I don't think you need to build a team around him. I just don't think you can expect him to be a specific part of a unit. You build a good team and then let him play in it, in the knowledge that it is still a good enough team without him.

I think if you try to build a team around him we are just going to be forever having these discussions about what his best role is, why he goes through such bad spells, whether he is motivated enough, etc.

You can imagine him doing really well in some of Ferguson's teams for example, but it would be in part because those teams would also have Scholes, Keane, Ronaldo, Giggs, etc. He would have the ability to offer things even those players couldn't, but they could also control and win games in their own right.
This is the way forward. Positive yet pragmatic.
 

passing-wind

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2013
Messages
3,041
We have an abundance of rubbish quality players surrounding Pogba, if you look from his perspective he's good enough to walk into any midfield: Barca, Real, City, Juventus, Liverpool etc.

He's constantly looked upon to walk the midfield to victory, and while he's a quality player he's not the type to dictate the tempo he's far superior in attacking phases of play further up the field. I think he's time here has been a mixture of mismanagement and a bad attitude, if he's in a solid system with a footballing philosophy he's top 3 midfielders worldwide on his day.

I don't think it's a matter of consistency from him, it comes from the team and some of our football has been disgraceful this season even under Ole.

You put a David Silva /De Bryune in a midfield with the likes of Matic, Herrera, Mctomminay and a system that is as lethargic as ours. Your restricting their capabilities.
 

Zed 101

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2014
Messages
586
Put a player into a team full of world class players and he will shine like a world class player is that the general gist of the Pogba backers??? meh! sounds like making excuses to me.... against Wolves McTomminey ahd a great game overall is he better than Pogba?? maybe we should put McTomminey in a team full of world class players then he would be even better than world class
 

finneh

Full Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2010
Messages
7,172
Yeah that's a good point. I do remember thinking that the reason he was playing so much better in the world cup was simply because he wanted to win the world cup, which is a bit more motivating than wanting to finish 2nd instead of 4th, or 4th instead of 6th.

Either way I just don't think it's a problem that is going to be solved. We either live with it and just get the best out of him when we can, or preferably we build a team that can be succesful without him, and it's up to him whether he wants to be part of it. Maybe the motivation will be more consistent when he knows the rest of the team is capable of winning leagues, cups etc. and that he has to be at his best to be a part of it.

It was different under Jose as he was clearly disruptive, which meant you had to question whether his good runs of form were worth the hassle.
At my company we have production staff that are rewarded on a monthly production bonus. We've found consistently that despite the bonus being based on 4000 products per month (based on 4 weeks), almost every month we find that the first 3 weeks of the month are around 900, with the last month being 1300+. I've called numerous meetings where I've tried to put across to the staff the lunacy of working 5/10 for 15 working days and then having to work 10/10 for the last 5 days. I've said everyone would benefit if they could put in 7/10 consistently. However they find it impossible to get motivated until the prospect of "losing" £200 is right in front of them.

In fact despite years of data proving the point they don't even accept that they're working any less hard. To a man they all believe they're working equally as hard all month, hence it being impossible as a company to change the situation. The reason I make this point is that it's endemic in a large portion of a certain mentality of worker... Often the type of worker who's paid a basic salary for a menial task.

I believe Pogba has exactly the same mentality, which I think is supremely rare in someone who's at the top of any field. Generally supremely talented individuals are where they are because they have put in incredible work in honing their skills for years and years. These are the kind of people that an 8/10 day is a failure. Their benchmark is 10/10 and that's why they're in the top 0.0001% in their field.

I'm starting to believe that just like many of my production staff... Pogba doesn't see his 15 days as a 5/10 and doesn't realise that he only performs as a 10/10 when there's a carrot directly in front of him. A carrot such as 5 games away from a World Cup win or the carrot of proving that Mourinho was the problem.

Maybe just like my production staff we need 10% of his salary to be based on productivity! It'd probably be impossible to measure but if I were a betting man I'd say all of his objective statistics (distance covered, sprints made etc) would show a large difference between his 10/10 and his 5/10 performances. I bet Pogba himself would be astounded by the numbers.
I think he's a luxury player, but an extremely good one. I don't think you need to build a team around him. I just don't think you can expect him to be a specific part of a unit. You build a good team and then let him play in it, in the knowledge that it is still a good enough team without him.

I think if tyou try to build a team around him we are just going to be forever having these discussions about what his best role is, why he goes through such bad spells, whether he is kotivated enough, etc.

You can imagine him doing really well in some of Ferguson's teams for example, but it would be in part because those teams would also have Scholes, Keane, Ronaldo, Giggs, etc. He would have the ability to offer things even those players couldn't, but they could also control and win games in their own right.
I'm just not sure that over the next 4-5 years our team is going to be able to afford this kind of luxury. Do any of us believe we're going to have a team similar to that of 2008 or 1999 over this period where Pogba doesn't have to be an integral part for us to be successful?

I personally have come to the conclusion that this is very unlikely and therefore we'd be better off with a less gifted but more consistent/productive/hard-working player in the mould of Eriksen. I am also aware that Pogba's statistics and highlights at a club like Real Madrid would make the entire forum believe we made a disastrous choice in that circumstance and from a global point of view Pogba would outshine Eriksen in every award going. However a player can be a very good player but the wrong player for a club. In that sense I would put Pogba in the same category as Veron.
 
Last edited:

edgar allan

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2017
Messages
2,734
Because we will likely be in Europa league. We cant mount a title challenge. We have majority of our players at a 6th place standard. We have a CEO that keeps on fecking up. We haven't signed a successful big name since pogba and DDG. The jury is still out on our manager.

If I was Sancho I wouldn't come here. Same with the other young stars.

Thankfully we can overpay for players but that has got us nowhere.
And if we end up in the Europa league Pogba will have his share of responsibility for that.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
56,382
Location
France
And if we end up in the Europa league Pogba will have his share of responsibility for that.
I'm actually curious to know why he in particular would have a share of responsibility, he was alongside Shaw our best players during the first months of the season then he got injured, had a couple of difficult games when he came back and Mourinho decided to use him a scapegoat. He was also by far our best player in December, January and February.
So while I understand why as a member of a team he should share a part of the responsibility if we don't qualify for the CL, I don't really get why he is the one targeted when he is the only player in this team that has been good for more than a month or two.
 

edgar allan

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2017
Messages
2,734
I'm actually curious to know why he in particular would have a share of responsibility, he was alongside Shaw our best players during the first months of the season then he got injured, had a couple of difficult games when he came back and Mourinho decided to use him a scapegoat. He was also by far our best player in December, January and February.
So while I understand why as a member of a team he should share a part of the responsibility if we don't qualify for the CL, I don't really get why he is the one targeted when he is the only player in this team that has been good for more than a month or two.
That's one huge understatement there. Let's be honest, he nearly downed tools.

The whole team have to take collective responsibility but you look to your supposed world class player to be more consistent over a whole season. He had 6 brilliant weeks in the new year and then form and effort drop off again.
 

RedDevilCanuck

Quite dreamy - blue eyes, blond hair, tanned skin
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
7,937
Location
The GTA
And if we end up in the Europa league Pogba will have his share of responsibility for that.
So does Jose, DDG, Young, Matic, Fred, Lingard, Sanchez, Mata, and Lukaku.

All have let the team down far far more than Pogba who has put up excellent numbers. Has he been without fault this season? No. He needs to be more consistent.

But he is surrounded by mediocrity. It is pretty evident.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.