Weak Mentality vs Weak Coaching

RedDevilQuebecois

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He's a fantastic manager and United fans would hate him. He wouldn't be playing close to the same lineups we have been, nor playing the same type of football.
Why? Chelsea tore a few teams into pieces while remaining very composed at the back as well. Good teams are always solid and composed defensively first.
 

Bobcat

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Well we didn’t get a point did we? Isn’t that why we were asking is it down to the players? Or not having good coaching?
What? How the feck is AWB's red card or Lindgards stupid back pass either of those things? If those two things dont happen we either win comfortably or worst case get a draw.

If you smash your car into someone else, the coppers wont arrest your driver instructor the next day.
 

VanDeBank

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Standards are down the fecking toliet :lol:

It was Young Boys. Not Pep's Barcelona ffs.
Listen, I'm just as disappointed with the result as anyone else, but I can also separate the quality of play from the result and see the red card and Jlingz brain fart are freak incidents and the team played well throughout.

It's delusional to think we can grab the game by the balls with 10 men away from home. Most of their players are full internationals, We did quite well to hold on to the ball for extended periods of time down a man. We gave away very little.

The truth is, they created feck all and were gifted the 3 points by freak incidents. It's a lot different from Istanbul were there were clearly coaching errors, like not marking players on set pieces.

Sometimes the better team doesn't win, there's some luck involved in a football match. With how well both teams played 9 times out of 10 we go home with a result.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Listen, I'm just as disappointed with the result as anyone else, but I can also separate the quality of play from the result and see the red card and Jlingz brain fart are freak incidents and the team played well throughout.

It's delusional to think we can grab the game by the balls with 10 men away from home. Most of their players are full internationals, We did quite well to hold on to the ball for extended periods of time down a man. We gave away very little.

The truth is, they created feck all and were gifted the 3 points by freak incidents. It's a lot different from Istanbul were there were clearly coaching errors, like not marking players on set pieces.

Sometimes the better team doesn't win, there's some luck involved in a football match. With how well both teams played 9 times out of 10 we go home with a result.
On what planet was that a performance that could be deemed as well throughout?
 

Josep Dowling

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Ole isn’t a decent manager. No other top team in the world would have him. Says it all. Going to waste a very good squad by having an inferior manager to our rivals for titles.

This team is exactly like Chelsea were under Lampard. We just need our Tuchel to turn up with decent tactics.
 

VanDeBank

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On what planet was that a performance that could be deemed as well throughout?
On a planet where you watch the game and not the result.
We gave away one real chance playing with 10 for 60 minutes. We were up 1-0 before then.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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On a planet where you watch the game and not the result.
We gave away one real chance playing with 10 for 60 minutes. We were up 1-0 before then.
We watched 2 different games then.

If you think that was an acceptable performance, then your standards are far different from mine.
 

Borussin

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Ole isn’t a decent manager. No other top team in the world would have him. Says it all. Going to waste a very good squad by having an inferior manager to our rivals for titles.

This team is exactly like Chelsea were under Lampard. We just need our Tuchel to turn up with decent tactics.
apart from the midfield though, which is maybe the most important factor. Tuchel was blessed with maybe the strongest midfield in the PL, and got to add to it this summer too.
 

ti vu

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What? How the feck is AWB's red card or Lindgards stupid back pass either of those things? If those two things dont happen we either win comfortably or worst case get a draw.

If you smash your car into someone else, the coppers wont arrest your driver instructor the next day.
So Ole is the driver instructor now? :lol:

FFS, last time I checked driving instructors have no say in what car you should choose. Less so on however you upgrade its part. Nor they're present by your side at that very moment.
 

E-mal

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Ronaldo will only be here a couple years, please just be proactive and change the manager asap. Everyone knows he is not good enough, and Zidane and Conte is there waiting in the background.
Must we always go for free agent managers?
Why not pay out and get Luis Enrique too?
I'm for bringing in a quality tactician, we have enough of leaders.
 

tomaldinho1

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Must we always go for free agent managers?
Why not pay out and get Luis Enrique too?
I'm for bringing in a quality tactician, we have enough of leaders.
He'd be my top pick but WC is around the corner
 
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Let's see how the team reacts on the weekend.
We’ll probably win… a team as good as ours can play and win the majority of matches without much tactical input. What’s needed is the manager who can make right decisions in big matches or when the match turns against us.
 

Bastian

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Still these threads, trying to figure out the players. It doesn't matter what players we have, what players we might bring in, what players we had. It all comes down to one thing: the manager. When are people going to realize that?
I think these types of threads are veiled attempts to highlight the questions surrounding the manager. There is so much moralising against critically evaluating the manager that it's a diplomatic way of asking the most relevant question there is. Is he good enough?

If the coaching staff is not good enough, it is on Ole to upgrade it, not least for a manager who says he's not really a coach-type manager. The coaching staff should quite obviously be absolute top level at a club like ours, tasked with developing a young and very expensively assembled team. Anything else is negligence. Same goes for the players, but now we actually have a very very good first XI and decent backups for some positions. Certainly a collection of players way better than most teams in Europe.

The only logical expectation is that this season Ole will have to prove himself, as a manager-in-development is not part of a rebuild. And thankfully he's sounded bullish and made demands on the players (before and after Newcastle) whereas last season he talked down our chances when we were actually leading the table.
 

PoTMS

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If it's continuing to happen under different players, then you have to look at the manager and his coaching team. But sure, let's throw everyone else under the bus before our darling Ole.
 

RDCR07

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If you smash your car into someone else, the coppers wont arrest your driver instructor the next day.
Your bizarre analogy about arresting the drivers instructor means taking action on Ole aka firing him. I’ve never said anything like that. But questions do need to be asked - is he doing the right thing in training?

If a kid continuously get into bad things or worst case becomes a murderer then the question will eventually arise did his/her parents raise that kid right and instill right values?

That’s what is being asked here - is the coaching right for the players? For example when we go down to 10 men’s what’s exactly is the plan? Just hoof the ball down the field? Did they train and have a plan in mind to hold the ball? Not to dominate and try to score but to hold the lead and play out the game cause we didn’t do it.
 

Dominos

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We watched 2 different games then.

If you think that was an acceptable performance, then your standards are far different from mine.
I think this is the biggest cause of disagreement on this forum - standards. There was plenty of people who thought Wolves and Southampton performances were acceptable too. A lot of fans just have no standards in terms of overall performance, they just look at the result at full time or watch the highlights and see who was at fault for a goal we conceded - there is absolutely no thought over whether we retained the ball well, controlled the game, created clear chances, made logical team selections and subs.

They have no grasp of the concept that performances are heavily correlated with results over the course of a season.
 

Dominos

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Get a grip. Besides the goal they hardly created anything in the 2nd half and we would all be saying it was a decent hard fought point with 10 men
Maybe you'd be saying that, but it's nothing to be proud of that you decide how to rate an overall performance based solely on the result.

Anyone who would have been happy that we didn't get a touch of the ball for the whole 2nd half just has absolutely no standards.
 

Blood Mage

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Our squad is arguably top 5 in the world. Our coaching staff is Norwich level.
 

Mr Smith

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This, all this game showed us is that he has no balls at all. What was the plan after we went down to 10 men. Take off Ronaldo for Jesse what was the idea behind that. Down to 10 you need a focal point Jesse isn´t that, not in a million years.
Actually I think there was an idea to that. Ronaldo is 36 and you need legs when your down to 10 men at 1-1; Lingard for all his faults is a high energy player, and you can't legislate for his mistake, it's a coach killer.

The problems for me came well before that. We could have controlled the game at 1-0 and I believe the switch to 5 at the back was very costly, as it effectively surrendered control of the midfield. We basically didn't get out of our half for an hour because when we did win the ball, e were outnumbered everywhere bit in defence, and ended up just losing it and inviting more pressure.
 

croadyman

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We definitely have a bit of both but the coaching is championship level like someone else said earlier
 

Hammondo

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Why? Chelsea tore a few teams into pieces while remaining very composed at the back as well. Good teams are always solid and composed defensively first.
Because they are defence first, attack second. They are very little in terms of thrills and some of the fans fav players wouldn't be playing most of the matches
 

RDCR07

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Because they are defence first, attack second. They are very little in terms of thrills and some of the fans fav players wouldn't be playing most of the matches
I think you need to look at the goal stats since he took over. They arent Mou’s park the bus team. They are tactical and their strategy lets them be very good at both attack and defense.

And I’m pretty sure if we are winning games and the Champions League the fans wouldn’t give a shit about “thrills” or their favorite players playing. Let’s not become like Arsenal when they didn’t win anything with Wenger after like 04 or 05 but kept saying they play the best football the country. What does that pretty football with no trophies get you?
 
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Foxbatt

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Get rid of those two clowns and if Ole gets top class experienced coaches he is the man to take us forward. This is Young Boys we are talking about and not PSG or some other top club.
 

sullydnl

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Because they are defence first, attack second. They are very little in terms of thrills and some of the fans fav players wouldn't be playing most of the matches
And yet they've only been slightly less creative than us in terms of actual chances this season despite having tougher fixtures. About 0.14 less xG than us in the PL, and higher open play xG. Consistent with last season where they were also ahead of us in terms of those underlying stats, particularly once Tuchel took over.

Not bad for a "defence first" team. It's almost like they're better coached than us...
 

RDCR07

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Get rid of those two clowns and if Ole gets top class experienced coaches he is the man to take us forward. This is Young Boys we are talking about and not PSG or some other top club.
No one is holding Ole back from bringing in new coaches. He is the one who picks his back room staff and he chose these people and will not let them go.
 

RedDevilQuebecois

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Because they are defence first, attack second. They are very little in terms of thrills and some of the fans fav players wouldn't be playing most of the matches
Seriously, I still remember when United were winning a bunch of games 1-0 under Fergie. Regardless, those who play and earn those clean sheets would fully deserve the right to start most of the matches.

I’m pretty sure if we are winning games and the Champions League the fans wouldn’t give a shit about “thrills” or their favorite players playing.
This. It's not like we were spanking teams all over the place when we won the 2007-08 Champions League campaign either. Dynamo Kyiv were the only ones being utter shit while AS Roma and Sporting Lisbon were tough opponents in the group stage (3 wins by one-goal margins and 1 draw).

Get rid of those two clowns and if Ole gets top class experienced coaches he is the man to take us forward. This is Young Boys we are talking about and not PSG or some other top club.
Carrick and McKenna should have been sacked alongside Mourinho. Being a first-team coach at Manchester United is no job for a coaching noob.
 
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meamth

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Feck me.

Ronaldo said heads up, shit happens. No need to overanalyze things.

Ronaldo, Ole, the club has set the objective to go to the next round. Let's support the team.

We're a joke on twitter. Schoolboys trending up #oleout again. Where were they when we signed Ronaldo and got 10 points in the league.

This thread, along with other threads coming out from today's defeat is just fecking mental to read.

Heads up, we have a long season ahead.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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1 player less on the pitch doesn't mean you turn into pussies, something is very wrong with this performance.
Mourinho’s Chelsea destroyed West Ham 4-1 or 4-0 iirc after having a man sent off.

There’s zero excuse for not even having one attempt at goal for an entire half, against this lot, even with a man down. This team doesn’t play with the swagger and technicality that befit its talent.
 

elmo

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I think this is the biggest cause of disagreement on this forum - standards. There was plenty of people who thought Wolves and Southampton performances were acceptable too. A lot of fans just have no standards in terms of overall performance, they just look at the result at full time or watch the highlights and see who was at fault for a goal we conceded - there is absolutely no thought over whether we retained the ball well, controlled the game, created clear chances, made logical team selections and subs.

They have no grasp of the concept that performances are heavily correlated with results over the course of a season.
They're also the ones who think Ole is a great manager and has us playing entertaining football :lol:
 

Scholes_boi

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What? How the feck is AWB's red card or Lindgards stupid back pass either of those things? If those two things dont happen we either win comfortably or worst case get a draw.

If you smash your car into someone else, the coppers wont arrest your driver instructor the next day.
If multiple people from the same driving instructor end up crashing, the coppers WILL investigate the driving instructor.

Listen, I'm just as disappointed with the result as anyone else, but I can also separate the quality of play from the result and see the red card and Jlingz brain fart are freak incidents and the team played well throughout.

It's delusional to think we can grab the game by the balls with 10 men away from home. Most of their players are full internationals, We did quite well to hold on to the ball for extended periods of time down a man. We gave away very little.

The truth is, they created feck all and were gifted the 3 points by freak incidents. It's a lot different from Istanbul were there were clearly coaching errors, like not marking players on set pieces.

Sometimes the better team doesn't win, there's some luck involved in a football match. With how well both teams played 9 times out of 10 we go home with a result.
I think you were watching the wrong match today mate. YB completely dominated in possession, strength, willpower, and team structure. They pressed from start to finish and we constantly whipping balls into the box. It was like watching a PL team play a league 2 team, in which WE were the league 2 team. We went maximum coward mode by taking off Sancho and then playing defensively with 5 at the back. How can you not see that?

Are you honestly telling me that the likes of DDG, Shaw, Varane, Maguire, Fernandes, Pogba, Sancho and fecking Ronaldo are not good enough to win a match against a team like YB even at 10 men if we went for the attack? They created LOADS of chances and the score should have been 4-1 or 5-1 in THEIR favour. We would have won comfortably with any of the other top managers in the PL, even after going 10 man down. I've always defending Ole before today, but this just showed me how ridiculous his decision making really is. Managers at the top order simply cannot have these moments of madness if they want to win trophies these days; the level of competition now is too much to be doing this.
 

SAFMUTD

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We keep persisting with an average manager, we need an special manager. I don't understand why have we settled for "good" when we are competing against the very best.

I can only imagine how would we perform under Klopp, Tuchel or Pep.
 

VictoriaRed

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I was hoping he would have pulled off Ronaldo at half or the 60 min mark and put on Martial. I'm sorry, but the boys played decent enough to get a point. I can't believe the game was on turf! Turf is the worst! The dread with some of you lot is ridiculous. I can't stand it when we don't win, but we have ample opportunity to make up for it. By the way, did Sancho leave his confidence in Germany? Feck me. You're a fecking pro. Start doing what we brought you in for: take players on, pick a pass, and get in positions to score, and then, well, score. If Aaron doesn't have a brain fart, we breeze to a 3 nil victory, easily.
 

RedBanker

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No one is holding Ole back from bringing in new coaches. He is the one who picks his back room staff and he chose these people and will not let them go.
Oh my. Are you really asking someone who can't make proper subs even after three years of "learning" to pick his own coaches? He will probably hire Lingard as a coach.
 

RDCR07

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Oh my. Are you really asking someone who can't make proper subs even after three years of "learning" to pick his own coaches? He will probably hire Lingard as a coach.
A manager picks the coaches. Same mistake Moyes made bringing his inexperienced coaches with him from Everton. Hopefully it doesn’t come back to bite Ole in the ass.
 

kouroux

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Listen, I'm just as disappointed with the result as anyone else, but I can also separate the quality of play from the result and see the red card and Jlingz brain fart are freak incidents and the team played well throughout.

It's delusional to think we can grab the game by the balls with 10 men away from home. Most of their players are full internationals, We did quite well to hold on to the ball for extended periods of time down a man. We gave away very little.

The truth is, they created feck all and were gifted the 3 points by freak incidents. It's a lot different from Istanbul were there were clearly coaching errors, like not marking players on set pieces.

Sometimes the better team doesn't win, there's some luck involved in a football match. With how well both teams played 9 times out of 10 we go home with a result.
Man United wasn't the better team tbh.
 

RedBanker

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A manager picks the coaches. Same mistake Moyes made bringing his inexperienced coaches with him from Everton. Hopefully it doesn’t come back to bite Ole in the ass.
It's all about not leaving the comfort zone I think. Hand on heart, can anyone tell me that our general play has improved much on an average over the last three years? We still get repeatedly bossed by teams which are far inferior to us man for man. Yesterday was more like 8 v 11 not 10 v 11.
 

croadyman

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Both are as a result of a lax mentality from the players.

The performance wasn't good enough from the team, but playing 60 mins with 10 men away on a plastic pitch is extremely hard to deal with.
I refuse to blame that pitch because it deflects criticism away of Ole's poor game management in adversity yet again
 

croadyman

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It really is mental how often teams play really well against us and look shite against other teams. It’s because we are incapable of keeping the ball.
Yeah you are absolutely spot on and it's worrying that Ole and the coaches still don't put any emphasis on ball retention