We're starting to see the basis of a proper squad

[Majima]

Did you like the style of play under Moyes/LVG/Jose?

The only one i outright did not enjoy was Moyes, you could see he was out of his depth from day 1. LVG i enjoyed the first season and could see the initial progress with his coaching & vision. Mourinho, i wasn't a fan of initially, but respected him as a winner, his first season was good.

The point is, Ole is much closer to Moyes than he is LVG or Mourinho. There's some games where i can get behind & enjoy, the Chelsea away recently was good. But 99% of the time under Ole, i am absolutely miserable, bemoaning how clueless we look on the pitch. The thing is, i was not happy with his reactionary permanent appointment last season. With the dof position canned & the decision to wait until the summer to appoint a permanent manager ignored, the whole club was away with the fairies it seemed.

Can you not understand that this is a transition period where Ole has 4 managers worth of players who are not capable of adapting to his style of play?

No. Every manager joins clubs without his own set of players. You can still expect to see the team coached properly. Especially when he has been here almost a full year now. There are zero excuses for what i see currently.

I would say the set of players have adapted to his style. He wants to sit deep & hit teams on the counter, sounds pretty simple to me. The majority of teams we play do not play into this style though. My criticism comes from him not coming up with a solution to a problem we face on a weekly basis. There has never been a plan B/C present.

For us to systematically break those teams down effectively, we need to be able to comfortably maintain pressure & possession high up the pitch, with clever positioning & movement. That comes from the training pitch. The fact we have not looked any closer to solving this obvious problem in the year he's been here, says it all about the level of manager & coaches we have here.

With each window, the more players that leave the squad will look better.

Like this past summer window, where we have actually gone backwards? So it's not guaranteed is it?

The more of his own signings that come in and integrate etc can only lead to better performances.

I actually don't care about more signings. Quality coaches make players perform above themselves. Coach the existing players effectively. Coach the team to attack better in the final third vs deep defences. Show creativity on set-pieces. Everything is going through the motions right now, you're actually deluding yourself if you believe more signings are the key to everything. We're already seeing Maguire lose confidence and start to go backwards... what happens when the new signings stagnate due to poor coaching too? Then what?

Look at the squad Ole has. Ole can do so much, but its time he needs.

The squad Ole inherited finished 2nd the season before. He's been here almost a year now, look where we are in the table right now, 10th already 10 points behind top 4 after 11 games. That is Ole's body of work to now, that is acceptable to you?

Embrace the change, it takes time. We are in transition. Ole is trying to re-shape the squad with no DOF and Ed Woodward in charge of transfers. Its not an easy journey, but its one we have to believe in.

We've been in transition for 6 years now. Why would i embrace a transition with no signs of future progress present? That would be putting my head in the sand.

 

[Roboc7]

I think once the transfer window shut Ole would have been hoping for no injuries, that went well. I think he has been let down badly by the club. However I also think he is rather naive and is putting far too much trust in young players with no experience and in a coaching staff with not enough quality.

A combination of being let down by the club and not making a good enough assessment of players he had.

Everyone at the club would have been thinking we could finish in top 4 if had good season, top 6 would be a bad season. What we’ve seen so far was not expected by any of them and the blame is spread amongst numerous people.

How the OP has assessed the squad, with an optimistic look is probably how Ole has assessed it as well. But he’s been overly optimistic and has also found his coaching and tactics haven’t worked in majority of games as well.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I would say the set of players have adapted to his style. He wants to sit deep & hit teams on the counter, sounds pretty simple to me. The majority of teams we play do not play into this style though. My criticism comes from him not coming up with a solution to a problem we face on a weekly basis. There has never been a plan B/C present.

For us to systematically break those teams down effectively, we need to be able to comfortably maintain pressure & possession high up the pitch, with clever positioning & movement. That comes from the training pitch. The fact we have not looked any closer to solving this obvious problem in the year he's been here, says it all about the level of manager & coaches we have here.

To be fair, we've faced the same problem with a multitude of managers and none of them have looked capable of overcoming teams that sit deep and defend against us.

Moyes' solution was to cross, cross, cross.
LvGs was to pass, pass, pass and pass some more.
Mourinho's was to let the opposition have the ball and force errors. And if teams pressed us, put on Fellaini and hoof it up to him.

Ole is at least trying something different with pressing and pace but it's clear we don't have the creative, intelligent players to break down opposition that sets up like that against us. It's why we can look scintillating against teams that attack us but clueless against anyone that sits deep. Contrary to what you're saying above, we are able to keep the ball, we just don;t know what to do with it or execute poorly. Some of that is coached, some is innate to the player.

Although they can take some of the blame, the problem is bigger than the manager and coaching staff, it also includes past recruitment and strategy at the board level.

 

[Dve]

The only one i outright did not enjoy was Moyes, you could see he was out of his depth from day 1. LVG i enjoyed the first season and could see the initial progress with his coaching & vision. Mourinho, i wasn't a fan of initially, but respected him as a winner, his first season was good.

The point is, Ole is much closer to Moyes than he is LVG or Mourinho. There's some games where i can get behind & enjoy, the Chelsea away recently was good. But 99% of the time under Ole, i am absolutely miserable, bemoaning how clueless we look on the pitch. The thing is, i was not happy with his reactionary permanent appointment last season. With the dof position canned & the decision to wait until the summer to appoint a permanent manager ignored, the whole club was away with the fairies it seemed.


No. Every manager joins clubs without his own set of players. You can still expect to see the team coached properly. Especially when he has been here almost a full year now. There are zero excuses for what i see currently.

I would say the set of players have adapted to his style. He wants to sit deep & hit teams on the counter, sounds pretty simple to me. The majority of teams we play do not play into this style though. My criticism comes from him not coming up with a solution to a problem we face on a weekly basis. There has never been a plan B/C present.

For us to systematically break those teams down effectively, we need to be able to comfortably maintain pressure & possession high up the pitch, with clever positioning & movement. That comes from the training pitch. The fact we have not looked any closer to solving this obvious problem in the year he's been here, says it all about the level of manager & coaches we have here.


Like this past summer window, where we have actually gone backwards? So it's not guaranteed is it?


I actually don't care about more signings. Quality coaches make players perform above themselves. Coach the existing players effectively. Coach the team to attack better in the final third vs deep defences. Show creativity on set-pieces. Everything is going through the motions right now, you're actually deluding yourself if you believe more signings are the key to everything. We're already seeing Maguire lose confidence and start to go backwards... what happens when the new signings stagnate due to poor coaching too? Then what?


The squad Ole inherited finished 2nd the season before. He's been here almost a year now, look where we are in the table right now, 10th already 10 points behind top 4 after 11 games. That is Ole's body of work to now, that is acceptable to you?


We've been in transition for 6 years now. Why would i embrace a transition with no signs of future progress present? That would be putting my head in the sand.

The question is, what to do instead. The same as you have done the last 6 years?

 

[RedRonaldo]

World class, top player in the league: De Gea, Pogba

Important player for the club: Maguire, AWB, Rashford, Martial

Good player: James, Mctominay

Decent squad player for rotation/player with some potential: Lindelof, Shaw, Tunazabe, Williams, Greenwood

Deadwood: Matic, Mata, Fred, lingard, Young, Jones, Rojo, Andreas, Bailey

Unproven: Gomes, Garner, Chong, Dalot

 

[DomesticTadpole]

World class, top player in the league: De Gea, Pogba

Important player for the club: Maguire, AWB, Rashford, Martial

Good player: James, Mctominay

Decent squad player for rotation/player with some potential: Lindelof, Shaw, Tunazabe, Williams, Greenwood

Deadwood: Matic, Mata, Fred, lingard, Young, Jones, Rojo, Andreas, Bailey

Unproven: Gomes, Garner, Chong, Dalot

So that is a squad of 16 useable players. Still a lot of signings needed. Matic might go, but I think they others apart from maybe Mata will need to be dragged out kicking and screaming.

 

[RedRonaldo]

So that is a squad of 16 useable players. Still a lot of signings needed. Matic might go, but I think they others apart from maybe Mata will need to be dragged out kicking and screaming.

Yes imagine we sell all our deadwoods, and just spend around 260m to buy Haaland (60m), Sancho(100-120m) and Maddison(70m), and maybe 1 more backup CM(20-30m), and recall Smalling. Then we will have a decent squad to challenge for top 4.

GK: De Gea, Romero
LB: Shaw, Williams
CB1: Maguire, Smalling
CB2: Lindelof, Tuanzebe
RB: AWB, Dalot
CM1: Pogba, new CM/Fred
CM2: Mctominay, Garner/Hannibal
AM: Maddison, Gomes/Pereira
LWF: Rashford, James
FW: Martial, Haaland
RWF: Sancho, Greenwood

Just get 4 in, and 8 out, and we will do fine.
The midfield maybe lacking depth, but we have a few good young players who we can try as backup option: Gomes, Garner and even Hannibal.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yes imagine we sell all our deadwoods, and just spend around 260m to buy Haaland (60m), Sancho(100-120m) and Maddison(70m), and maybe 1 more backup CM(20-30m), and recall Smalling. Then we will have a decent squad to challenge for top 4.

GK: De Gea, Romero
LB: Shaw, Williams
CB1: Maguire, Smalling
CB2: Lindelof, Tuanzebe
RB: AWB, Dalot
CM1: Pogba, new CM/Fred
CM2: Mctominay, Garner/Hannibal
AM: Maddison, Gomes/Pereira
LWF: Rashford, James
FW: Martial, Haaland
RWF: Sancho, Greenwood

The midfield maybe lacking depth, but we have a few good young players who we can try: Gomes, Garner and even Hannibal.

Yes it could be good. However I have severe doubts about Shaw and Dalot as they are always injured. I would honestly be looking at another LB. Would promote Laird.

 

[Njord]

GK looks good, with a top no. 1 and top no. 2, experienced third choice and a promising prospect out on loan.

At CB we have Maguire who should be good enough, Lindelöf may not be better than a third choice, and Tuanzebe could step up to be a starter, but should only be back up right now. May need a new starter in the future, but let's see how Lindelöf and Tuanzebe develop. We probably only need one or two of Smalling/Rojo/Jones/Bailly. Don't think we have any promising youth players in position outside the first team.

FB: AWB should be good enough, Shaw may need upgrading, Young must leave next summer and Dalot/Williams/Laird can challenge for starting or squad places long term. TFM will probably leave, but may get some chances. Wrt. incoming transfers we might need a new LB, depending on Shaw and Williams' development.

Pogba is a world class CM at his best, but he might want to leave. McTominay will be here for a long time, and Garner will hopefully be part of the squad. I don't think Fred is good enough to be a United player. We need two new players here. If Pogba leaves one should be a starter, if Pogba stays, I'd say get rid of Fred and buy two younger players.

At AM we have awful options in Lingard, Pereira and Mata. i'd get rid of all of them and buy two new ones. Gomes might develop to fill one of those positions.

In the front three we currently have three options plus one youngster. Greenwood should be option no. six here, and I think we need two more players here. Haaland and Sancho, in addition to Radhford, Martial and James would be superb.

I think there is potential in the squad, but we may need 6-8 new players to strengthen it, and I think there is still a lot who could leave. Mata, Matic, Sanchez and Young are done and certainly need to leave. I'd also get rid of Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Bailly, TFM, Fred, Andreas and Lingard (over the next four windows).

 

[Sky1981]

GK looks good, with a top no. 1 and top no. 2, experienced third choice and a promising prospect out on loan.

At CB we have Maguire who should be good enough, Lindelöf may not be better than a third choice, and Tuanzebe could step up to be a starter, but should only be back up right now. May need a new starter in the future, but let's see how Lindelöf and Tuanzebe develop. We probably only need one or two of Smalling/Rojo/Jones/Bailly. Don't think we have any promising youth players in position outside the first team.

FB: AWB should be good enough, Shaw may need upgrading, Young must leave next summer and Dalot/Williams/Laird can challenge for starting or squad places long term. TFM will probably leave, but may get some chances. Wrt. incoming transfers we might need a new LB, depending on Shaw and Williams' development.

Pogba is a world class CM at his best, but he might want to leave. McTominay will be here for a long time, and Garner will hopefully be part of the squad. I don't think Fred is good enough to be a United player. We need two new players here. If Pogba leaves one should be a starter, if Pogba stays, I'd say get rid of Fred and buy two younger players.

At AM we have awful options in Lingard, Pereira and Mata. i'd get rid of all of them and buy two new ones. Gomes might develop to fill one of those positions.

In the front three we currently have three options plus one youngster. Greenwood should be option no. six here, and I think we need two more players here. Haaland and Sancho, in addition to Radhford, Martial and James would be superb.

I think there is potential in the squad, but we may need 6-8 new players to strengthen it, and I think there is still a lot who could leave. Mata, Matic, Sanchez and Young are done and certainly need to leave. I'd also get rid of Smalling, Jones, Rojo, Bailly, TFM, Fred, Andreas and Lingard (over the next four windows).

How could you say potential in the squad when you yourself agrees that we need 8 players.

That's practically the whole new starting xi.

 

[Njord]

How could you say potential in the squad when you yourself agrees that we need 8 players.

That's practically the whole new starting xi.

I think we might need 8 out of 22 (for two XIs) not 8 new starters.

If Pogba stays, and Martial, Lindelöf and Shaw proves to be good enough to start, I think we could get away with two new starters, an AM and a RW. Our squad is extremely thin though, so I think we need to fill a lot of squad positions. This can, however, be done with younger, cheaper players.

 

[mariachi-19]

You dont understand tactics if you dont think ole is the problem.

Mate ive won more trophies as a coach then you probably ever will in your life.

You cannot, and I cannot emphasis this enough, coach around a clear lack of ability at this level. You can try, but unless you have world class individual players at your disposal, you'll get found out 9 times out of 10.

You'd have thought when we got thrashed by Barcelona in 2011 that Manchester United supporters would understand this.

 

[Lee565]

Would disagree and think we have gone backwards.

Still think if Woodward had some footballing sense knocking around in his mind he would have realized it was a no brainer to bring conte in last December instead of solskjear and with the players we had available during that time to fit into how conte sets his teams up we would have had a lot of potential.

 

[caid]

I really don't think we are. There's question marks over the overwhelming majority of them. The few we know what to expect from are the likes of lingard, young and jones.
Talent is great for the future but i'd never assume they're definitely going to make it until they've actually made it and proven they're good enough. None of our players have.

 

[shamans]

Mate ive won more trophies as a coach then you probably ever will in your life.

You cannot, and I cannot emphasis this enough, coach around a clear lack of ability at this level. You can try, but unless you have world class individual players at your disposal, you'll get found out 9 times out of 10.

You'd have thought when we got thrashed by Barcelona in 2011 that Manchester United supporters would understand this.

You've won trophies but still fail to understand management. You're using one genuine obstacle (pool players) to hide Ole's lack of tactical nuance.

Simple example: several weeks ago Ole played 1 upfront until the 70th minute or so. Until he finally played 2 upfront and we started playing better. A top manager would have known this from the start. Ole is extremely naive.

Management is about getting the best out of your players. Not "I wanna play attacking football like this. Can you do it? No? Ah I guess need new players".

Ole's whole approach is childish at this point. Yes he has obstacles but he has shown nothing to prove he would be a good coach without them.

Like I said earlier, if Ole was struggling to finish top4 with these players I'd be like fair enough. We're gonna struggle to finish 10th.

 

[Green_Red]

Right now the number 10 is a massive issue. We dont have a player that can link up the midfield and forwards with creativity.

Bruno Fernandez looked like a possible player to put in there but weve been left with Mata, Lingard and Pereira.

Mata isnt the high energy 10 that this team needs and Pereira frustrates.

Pereira on the face of it gets in the right positions, chooses the right passes 8/10 times but doesnt execute them well enough and they get intercepted. His shots, whilst frustrating that they dont challenge the opposing keepers, are all being taken from the right places on the pitch. We need a more confident, more developed player in that position to break teams down better. Unfortunately I think Ole is going to stick with him and try to coach the bad parts out of his game, so we're probably stuck with him a while.

Lingard simply isnt having the impact on that position you would expect of a player of his age. The player we need in there should be a handful for the opposition. The opposition must be delighted when they see Lingard on the teamsheet. Just keep the ball away from him and let him tire himself out like a jack russell running around aimlessly. If he does get the ball it will only go sideways. Easy.

 

[shamans]

The point is, Ole is much closer to Moyes than he is LVG or Mourinho.

I would go as far as saying Ole is no where near Moyes' caliber of management. And just because Ole is crap doesn't mean LVG, Moyes or Mou were suited for us.

Moyes was/is a proven mid/upper table premier league manager. Ole has not had one successful team in a respected league. Ever.

 

[shamans]

I also don't think there is a "proper squad" here. We (well we know who) took a gamble on young kids and a fresh squad and it's left us pretty thin.

I will commend the sale of certain players who were just stinking it up here. Even Smalling.

 

[SAFMUTD]

You've won trophies but still fail to understand management. You're using one genuine obstacle (pool players) to hide Ole's lack of tactical nuance.

Simple example: several weeks ago Ole played 1 upfront until the 70th minute or so. Until he finally played 2 upfront and we started playing better. A top manager would have known this from the start. Ole is extremely naive.

Management is about getting the best out of your players. Not "I wanna play attacking football like this. Can you do it? No? Ah I guess need new players".

Ole's whole approach is childish at this point. Yes he has obstacles but he has shown nothing to prove he would be a good coach without them.

Like I said earlier, if Ole was struggling to finish top4 with these players I'd be like fair enough. We're gonna struggle to finish 10th.

Exactly, totally agree.

 

[ash_86]

You've won trophies but still fail to understand management. You're using one genuine obstacle (pool players) to hide Ole's lack of tactical nuance.

Simple example: several weeks ago Ole played 1 upfront until the 70th minute or so. Until he finally played 2 upfront and we started playing better. A top manager would have known this from the start. Ole is extremely naive.

Management is about getting the best out of your players. Not "I wanna play attacking football like this. Can you do it? No? Ah I guess need new players".

Ole's whole approach is childish at this point. Yes he has obstacles but he has shown nothing to prove he would be a good coach without them.

Like I said earlier, if Ole was struggling to finish top4 with these players I'd be like fair enough. We're gonna struggle to finish 10th.

Isn't that what Pep does? When he went to City there was a mass exodus of players that didn't suit his style like Joe Hart. He bought bucket loads of players that would fit his system.

 

[shamans]

Isn't that what Pep does? When he went to City there was a mass exodus of players that didn't suit his style like Joe Hart. He bought bucket loads of players that would fit his system.

The point is he had a vision and crawled towards that vision slowly and steadily. Not just go "right we're gonna lose these games because these guys aren't properly attacking".

He didn't play one formation, asked the lads to attack and play it fast and then just fail. Of course there were obstacles but they remained competitive at least.

 

[Sandikan]

If Ole stays they’ll find an excuse to write off next season also, probably “he only signed 6 players but needed 10”

Remember in May it was “give Ole ONE window then judge him”

I can see it now
"It's difficult to buy players in a tournament summer", as we pursue some massively overpriced English midfielder in the 80-100m bracket, and do nothing else.

 

[Bobcat]

Yes imagine we sell all our deadwoods, and just spend around 260m to buy Haaland (60m), Sancho(100-120m) and Maddison(70m), and maybe 1 more backup CM(20-30m), and recall Smalling. Then we will have a decent squad to challenge for top 4.

GK: De Gea, Romero
LB: Shaw, Williams
CB1: Maguire, Smalling
CB2: Lindelof, Tuanzebe
RB: AWB, Dalot
CM1: Pogba, new CM/Fred
CM2: Mctominay, Garner/Hannibal
AM: Maddison, Gomes/Pereira
LWF: Rashford, James
FW: Martial, Haaland
RWF: Sancho, Greenwood

Just get 4 in, and 8 out, and we will do fine.
The midfield maybe lacking depth, but we have a few good young players who we can try as backup option: Gomes, Garner and even Hannibal.

This looks good.

Still would not trust Shaw to stay fit though. He is always seemingly just a gust of wind away from being sidelined

 

[sunama]

Now we are seeing the basis of a team that may get us back to top 4...this is us now, this is how low our bar is set we dont talk about titles anymore but getting a shot to get into top 4.

Only 2 years ago, we were attempting to fight MCFC for the league.
And when we failed, many fans were disappointed that we only finished 2nd and didn't get closer.
Now, the standards (in only 2 years) have slipped so low that fans are actually fantasising about competing for 4th place.
Even when Moyes was here (and Moyes is widely regarded as one of the worst managers MUFC have ever had), fans lost their minds when we slipped to 7th and wanted Moyes gone. Here's where we are now:

Get rid of Woodward, bring in a top manager and we will immediately be back in 4th place.
There won't be any long term plan to make 4th place - this will be achieved in the new manager's first season.

If a top manager comes in, he'll demand signings, which is why Woodward is happy with Ole (who doesn't want to over spend and has very low aims).
For this reason, Woodward and Ole both need to leave.

In addition, we need an entirely new backroom staff, which a new manager will most likely bring in. And of course a new manager will bring in several new players.

Woodward being fired is the key.

 

[sunama]

If Ole stays they’ll find an excuse to write off next season also, probably “he only signed 6 players but needed 10”

Remember in May it was “give Ole ONE window then judge him”

If Ole stays into next season, next season will definitely be written off and some fans will believe that we need another 3 years of mid table performances to eventually be good enough to make 4th place.

But I'll add that even if Ole is replaced, we won't compete for the league until Woodward is fired.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

No...

1. We are building this squad for a style of play that is not effective over a large number of games or outdated at the highest level...
The players brought in are not suited to play the kind of football that would make us competitive. Anyone under the illusion that a counterattacking team will be able to challenge for anything major should take a look at how technical and fundamentally possession-oriented the football at the highest level has become. Sure, a majority of the goals scored comes when attacking against an ubalanced defensive structure and some level of pragmatism should be allowed when playing against superior teams, but what happens when we play against the likes of Bournemouth and Newcastle?

2. We have a number of promising youngsters that would benefit from playing a season or two out on loan in the championship. Instead, we have so few able players that they are needed and end up being part u23 and part bench first team... Not great for their development. Could also be worth noting that they would learn a lot more from the average manager and coaching team at a championship club that our people.

3. Roughly 75% of our players are not able to pass the ball better than the average championship player. The average ability among the players in our squad at receiving and passing is so bad that it is frightening.

4. If the next appointed manager prefers to play more technical and possessionbased football, or any type of football at all that involved passing the ball with intention and efficiency, then we are in for another complete rebuild.

5. We got one midfielder that would not struggle to start a game for 19 of the 20 teams in the league. The rest would at best be rotational players for the less capable teams in the EPL.

This rebuild is based on the complete opposite idea of how successful football is played. So much for all the "expert football people" at the club, Woodward brags about.

 

[momo83]

If Ole stays into next season, next season will definitely be written off and some fans will believe that we need another 3 years of mid table performances to eventually be good enough to make 4th place.

But I'll add that even if Ole is replaced, we won't compete for the league until Woodward is fired.

If Ole stays into next season, next season will definitely be written off and some fans will believe that we need another 3 years of mid table performances to eventually be good enough to make 4th place.

But I'll add that even if Ole is replaced, we won't compete for the league until Woodward is fired.

I agree that the Glazers are leeches. But the thing is United have always had stingy board. Martin Edwards was stingy, took a load of money as a salary. But SAF came and still turned things around.

I think when you look at the money this board has spent. Then success can still be had with the right money. It’s not like we’re run by the Arsenal board.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

If Ole stays into next season, next season will definitely be written off and some fans will believe that we need another 3 years of mid table performances to eventually be good enough to make 4th place.

But I'll add that even if Ole is replaced, we won't compete for the league until Woodward is fired.

/This.

The fallacy that we must get substantially worse to initiate this rebuild is nothing short of disrespectful to the fanbase, the players we are rid of were under-performers/non-performers so their impact on the playing side should be minimal if any.

 

[mariachi-19]

You've won trophies but still fail to understand management. You're using one genuine obstacle (pool players) to hide Ole's lack of tactical nuance.

Simple example: several weeks ago Ole played 1 upfront until the 70th minute or so. Until he finally played 2 upfront and we started playing better. A top manager would have known this from the start. Ole is extremely naive.

Management is about getting the best out of your players. Not "I wanna play attacking football like this. Can you do it? No? Ah I guess need new players".

Ole's whole approach is childish at this point. Yes he has obstacles but he has shown nothing to prove he would be a good coach without them.

Like I said earlier, if Ole was struggling to finish top4 with these players I'd be like fair enough. We're gonna struggle to finish 10th.

Who'd have thought that playing 2 players up top after the 70th minute when defenders are tired, would likely lead to a team looking more attacking

This may come as a shock to you, but tactics in games are not set from the start and suddenly change with a substitution. This shit is planned and its planned heavily with players fully understanding that at this point in time, we change to this formation and you role is to do XYZ when that happens. But say we start 2 at the top and the opposing side has 70 minutes to adapt and suddenly the threat they would offer later in the game is nullfied. Not only that, you have two tired strikers not just one.

You call Ole naive but you clearly have little understanding about actual in game tactics and player management. Or are you still under the impression that football is in the same place it was 30 years ago where you always play your best team? You're probably the same type of poster that thought Ole's tactics and not player burnout that lead to the end of season results last year. This despite any decent sports scientist being able to recongise that the fatigue caused by his high eneregy, high intensity start, was potentially going to backfire as the players clearly didnt have the base fitness to sustain it given the bullshit regime that Mourinho was running prior to his appointment.

Better yet, Ole has one upped every "world class" manager he has played against since his appointment except for Pep. So you know what, im going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say, yes the players aren't good enough, because they showed under previous managers they weren't, two of which were apparently "world class" managers.

 

[matt10000]

I've not written this season off if we replace Ole soon.

Really? Another sacking and another high profile appointment is going to change the squad and culture overnight into what this for season?

There is little point in building a palace on foundations made of sand

 

[matt10000]

Who'd have thought that playing 2 players up top after the 70th minute when defenders are tired, would likely lead to a team looking more attacking

This may come as a shock to you, but tactics in games are not set from the start and suddenly change with a substitution. This shit is planned and its planned heavily with players fully understanding that at this point in time, we change to this formation and you role is to do XYZ when that happens. But say we start 2 at the top and the opposing side has 70 minutes to adapt and suddenly the threat they would offer later in the game is nullfied. Not only that, you have two tired strikers not just one.

You call Ole naive but you clearly have little understanding about actual in game tactics and player management. Or are you still under the impression that football is in the same place it was 30 years ago where you always play your best team? You're probably the same type of poster that thought Ole's tactics and not player burnout that lead to the end of season results last year. This despite any decent sports scientist being able to recongise that the fatigue caused by his high eneregy, high intensity start, was potentially going to backfire as the players clearly didnt have the base fitness to sustain it given the bullshit regime that Mourinho was running prior to his appointment.

Better yet, Ole has one upped every "world class" manager he has played against since his appointment except for Pep. So you know what, im going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say, yes the players aren't good enough, because they showed under previous managers they weren't, two of which were apparently "world class" managers.

Spot on. Ole sat next to SAF in many games, observed what was happening and came on in latter parts and scored. This was not a coincidence.

 

[Foxbatt]

As Shamans has said it is a process. We cannot and no club can suddenly sell 11 players and buy 11 new players. It is different when SAF was here for the simple reason players are willing to come to United to be coached by a world class manager who was winning trophies and playing in CL and in the CL Finals too.
Why should a world class player wants to come to United knowing that he does not have a proven manager who had done or won anything significant?
So we are left with decent players who cannot play like Barca or City or Liverpool. But Klopp has managed to make good players brilliant and has Jodan Henderson and James Milner as an integral part of Liverpool.
It is ridiculous to blame all the ills on the players. Yes the board has to blamed for appointing an incompetent manager.

 

[mariachi-19]

As Shamans has said it is a process. We cannot and no club can suddenly sell 11 players and buy 11 new players. It is different when SAF was here for the simple reason players are willing to come to United to be coached by a world class manager who was winning trophies and playing in CL and in the CL Finals too.
Why should a world class player wants to come to United knowing that he does not have a proven manager who had done or won anything significant?
So we are left with decent players who cannot play like Barca or City or Liverpool. But Klopp has managed to make good players brilliant and has Jodan Henderson and James Milner as an integral part of Liverpool.
It is ridiculous to blame all the ills on the players. Yes the board has to blamed for appointing an incompetent manager.

Has he? or has simply played around their deficiencies and made sure they're not exposed? Because when we played Liverpool the other week. We killed their attacking wing back threat and their entire team looked like shit.

Of course its alot easier to play around this deficiencies when you're talking about hard running midfielders and not creative play makers. If a player doesn't have that ability in that role, you can't just suddenly extract it out of him. Its why a decent midfielder goes for 50-60 and a world class attacking midfielder goes for twice if not three times as much.

Park is the perfect example of this. Good technique, but never had that next level. Sir Alex played to his strengths but when he lost his legs and left united, he was exposed for how limited he actually was.

 

[Johan07]

That's been happening for a lot longer than the time that Ole has been in charge. It happened with LVG and Mourinho as well. One might stop and think that perhaps it's not the manager but the players. The manager can tell them to do all sorts of things. He can't make them do those same things once they step on the pitch. Problem is, we have to many passengers on this team. The only thing I will blame Ole for is insisting on playing a 4-2-3-1 when we don't have a proper #10 to play in the CAM position...

It happens because almost all coaches/managers that are from the Dutch school will give the players complete creative freedom in the final phase of play; or final third if you want. There will be instructions for the No 9 to always attack the first post in case of a cross, but thats about it. Its not just LVG, Guardiola submits to the same principle: the creative players need to have freedom in the final phase. Guardiola famously said (if I am not mistaken): I will take you there (final phase) and then its up to you.
We lack some creativity up front, it can easily be fixed with one or two additions to the squad. But this idea that Ole should set up a specific pattern of play in and around the penalty area is not very likely and not something that other top coaches do either.

 

[James Ward]

People are still rating Martial like he is world class or something.

Wouldn't mind seeing the back of him to be honest. He is not a Manchester United player and never will be. I will go down through our first team squad.

GK- De Gea (Keep)
Wan-Bissaka (Good defender but no where near good enough going forward, Jury still out)
CB Lindelof - (Not good enough, terrible in the air).
CB Maguire (Leicester have conceded the least goals out of any other premier league team without him, Jury still out)
LB - Shaw/Young (Two headless chickens, useless).
CM - McTominay (Not good enough, way too slow and his positioning is awful).
CM - Pogba (Keep, but don't blame him for wanting to leave with the crap around him).
CM - Fred/Pereria (Chronic useless)
AML - Rashford - (Still young but getting useless service with the crap around him, shouldn't be reliant on a young lad).
CF - Martial - Get rid, too inconsistent not a Manchester United standard player).
AMR - James, Should be no-where near the first time at present, squad player).

So out of the current starting 11 I would only keep De Gea, Pogba. Jury still out on Maguire and Wan Bisaaka.

The absolute state the club is in is shocking. A few signings are not going to get them into top four, need nearly a whole team.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

It happens because almost all coaches/managers that are from the Dutch school will give the players complete creative freedom in the final phase of play; or final third if you want. There will be instructions for the No 9 to always attack the first post in case of a cross, but thats about it. Its not just LVG, Guardiola submits to the same principle: the creative players need to have freedom in the final phase. Guardiola famously said (if I am not mistaken): I will take you there (final phase) and then its up to you.
We lack some creativity up front, it can easily be fixed with one or two additions to the squad. But this idea that Ole should set up a specific pattern of play in and around the penalty area is not very likely and not something that other top coaches do either.

This is so wrong. Are you seriously saying that most teams just 'wing it' in the final 3rd??? Do you really think that Pep's teams score so many tap ins by chance? There is a definite style of play from the time the keeper touches it, to the time the ball goes into the back of the net. Sure, sometimes things just open up and you have a crack, but Pep's teams for the most part have a definite game plan all over the field...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Mate ive won more trophies as a coach then you probably ever will in your life.

You cannot, and I cannot emphasis this enough, coach around a clear lack of ability at this level. You can try, but unless you have world class individual players at your disposal, you'll get found out 9 times out of 10.

You'd have thought when we got thrashed by Barcelona in 2011 that Manchester United supporters would understand this.

You also cannot perform when there's a clear lack of managerial ability. You'll get found out more often than not. Which will continue to happen under Ole who has no real pedigree as a quality manager at the highest level most likely becuase he really isn't one.

You can absolutely coach excellently despite a 'clear lack of quality' because there are multiple coached in every darn league who do it. Had you won so many trophies as manager you'd actually know that. And our lack of quality is subjective. For those managers with lesser resources what we have is great and they manage to leave their mark on those football teams. Ole has the resources and has fairly good players and makes them look worse. That's the sign of a manager that is out of his depth.

And forget the results which have been pathetic, it's the football that proves the above to be correct. In nearly a year of being Manchester United manager , our football is dreary and incoherent. That's not a lack of quality in the players, it's a lack of quality in the manager. Had he actually been a very good/suitable manager, even disregarding his brainfarts in cutting out squad down, we'd be for all intents and purposes, an evidently well coached team. But sadly, we are not.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

This is so wrong. Are you seriously saying that most teams just 'wing it' in the final 3rd??? Do you really think that Pep's teams score so many tap ins by chance? There is a definite style of play from the time the keeper touches it, to the time the ball goes into the back of the net. Sure, sometimes things just open up and you have a crack, but Pep's teams for the most part have a definite game plan all over the field...

It's just silly. When Pep and Klopp joined their respective clubs, even though the results were not ideal, you could see their work and the influence it was having - off the ball, in the buildup and attack. That's missing from Ole because clearly he isn't all that good.

 

[mariachi-19]

You also cannot perform when there's a clear lack of managerial ability. You'll get found out more often than not. Which will continue to happen under Ole who has no real pedigree as a quality manager at the highest level most likely becuase he really isn't one.

You can absolutely coach excellently despite a 'clear lack of quality' because there are multiple coached in every darn league who do it. Had you won so many trophies as manager you'd actually know that. And our lack of quality is subjective. For those managers with lesser resources what we have is great and they manage to leave their mark on those football teams. Ole has the resources and has fairly good players and makes them look worse. That's the sign of a manager that is out of his depth.

And forget the results which have been pathetic, it's the football that proves the above to be correct. In nearly a year of being Manchester United manager , our football is dreary and incoherent. That's not a lack of quality in the players, it's a lack of quality in the manager. Had he actually been a very good/suitable manager, even disregarding his brainfarts in cutting out squad down, we'd be for all intents and purposes, an evidently well coached team. But sadly, we are not.

So how does your first paragarph translate when he's virtually found out every top line manager in the Country? You're literally contradicting yourself.

Also, name the players who have looked worse under Ole?

Matic?
Mata?
Lingard?

Yet he seems to get a tune out of Rashford, Martial, McTominay, James, Pereria (back four speaks for itself but that's more so from better purchases).

Secondly, coaching "excellently" is not going to give Mata and Matic back their legs, or Lingard any ability or a spine. I would say that that he's got 5 or 6 good players, 4 or 5 with potential and ability and a lot of mid to bottom half of the league players who are not good enough but you cannot run a squad with 12 first teamers. For half this season he's lost his best striker and midfielder and the supporting cast are not top half of the premier league ready or capable. Good coaches don't get found out against shit opposition, players with the wrong mentality or lack of ability do. Unfortunately, our last two "world class" managers leveraged this squad with ageing has been players with a "ive worn it all" mentality instead of picking up players that were coming into their prime. As such, the players who should be good enough to coach the players on the pitch, are not there and those that are on the pitch are inexperienced and learning their trades in the midfield.

 

[shamans]

Who'd have thought that playing 2 players up top after the 70th minute when defenders are tired, would likely lead to a team looking more attacking

This may come as a shock to you, but tactics in games are not set from the start and suddenly change with a substitution. This shit is planned and its planned heavily with players fully understanding that at this point in time, we change to this formation and you role is to do XYZ when that happens. But say we start 2 at the top and the opposing side has 70 minutes to adapt and suddenly the threat they would offer later in the game is nullfied. Not only that, you have two tired strikers not just one.

You call Ole naive but you clearly have little understanding about actual in game tactics and player management. Or are you still under the impression that football is in the same place it was 30 years ago where you always play your best team? You're probably the same type of poster that thought Ole's tactics and not player burnout that lead to the end of season results last year. This despite any decent sports scientist being able to recongise that the fatigue caused by his high eneregy, high intensity start, was potentially going to backfire as the players clearly didnt have the base fitness to sustain it given the bullshit regime that Mourinho was running prior to his appointment.

Better yet, Ole has one upped every "world class" manager he has played against since his appointment except for Pep. So you know what, im going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say, yes the players aren't good enough, because they showed under previous managers they weren't, two of which were apparently "world class" managers.

Sorry man but right there is why your logic is flawed.

If Ole has one upped all these world class managers, what do you see to all the other managers who had "one upped" Ole? Or do the same excuses not apply to the other teams?

You're just defending Ole for the sake of it. He started playing 2 upfront more frequently since then because he found out it works. It's not like the 1 upfront tactic was helping him at all so I don't know why you're making it sound as if the "plan" was that successful.

Regarding fitness he has had a full summer to get that drilled in the players. Are you saying, technique aside, none of the players could be trained to be "fit enough" for Ole's supposed high pressing tactics? Not only that, we haven't even seen any of this magical high press since the start of the season so this seems to be another excuse for him.

Once again the biggest part about football management is executing your plan. Saying a manager has great ideas but the players just can't do it is really silly. That is the point of a manager.

You think these players don't know a high pressing attacking game is great? It's a managers job to decide how they get coached on it (training session layout, assigning different coaches for different aspects of the game, man management). Ole is miserably failing at it. You can think of excuses all you want, it won't change that.