West Brom sack Darren Moore

Chipper

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I've often thought West Brom were a bit trigger happy when sacking managers. They'd probably say they were proactive. This is a continuation of that, although it's probably the worst one for me.

In the Premier League they'd often change managers when just above the relegation zone, a position that I thought a club like them might well often find themselves in due to the size and resources of the club.

Pulis was 17th, Irvine 16th, Mel finished 17th, Clarke was 16th, Di Matteo 17th when they all got the boot.

I guess they see themselves as a club that should comfortably be safe and mid table in the Premier League so not taking the Championship by storm would be a sackable offence to them.
 

Patchbeard

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To be fair they lost their best player in Harvey Barnes back to Leicester in January, and are still in playoffs with a good buffer to 7th place. On the surface seems a bit ridiculous.
 

Classical Mechanic

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They have the best squad in the Championship. I think they’re thinking with a new manager they’ll get a bounce and kick on until the end of the season and get promotion.
 

Rozay

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People were arguing with me in the initial thread that it had nothing to do with race. I’ve always maintained the issue is not ‘looking’ like what a successful manager looks like. Of the recent England generation, for example, the likes of Gerrard, Lampard or Terry were always going to find it easier to get into management. They just ‘look the part’.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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I'm a bit stuck on this one.

On one hand, the championship is a tough league and sacking a manager for sitting in fourth seems very harsh. At least give him a chance to go through the playoffs.

On the other, recent form is woeful and particularly at home they're pretty diabolical. That squad also has the players to comfortably go up, with the likes of Gayle, Gibbs, Rodriguez, Livermore, Montero etc. They're no great shakes but they should be able to perform very highly at that level, certainly it's arguable that Moore had a better squad at his disposal than Leeds or Norwich, certainly better on paper than Sheffield United and with recent form it was even possible he might drop below Derby/Middlesbrough.

I guess the board made automatic promotion the target and feel another manager will do the job .. feel like people should at least wait because they're going to look a little silly if a new guy comes in and gets them automatically promoted, because in that case West Brom clearly made the right decision. Maybe Moore was doing well and this is harsh, or maybe the squad is clearly better than this and that'll get proven in the coming months.
 

duffer

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People were arguing with me in the initial thread that it had nothing to do with race. I’ve always maintained the issue is not ‘looking’ like what a successful manager looks like. Of the recent England generation, for example, the likes of Gerrard, Lampard or Terry were always going to find it easier to get into management. They just ‘look the part’.
You don't think similarly famous black players from the same generation (Rio, Ashley Cole, Andy Cole, etc) would get similar opportunities if they were interested? I guess we won't know because they are not interested (and I don't blame them!).

I'm struggling to think of any high profile black England internationals who have shown any interest in management. John Barnes' skin colour did not stop him getting fantastic first jobs in management.

It's only Sol Campbell nobody wants and that's because he is a massive weirdo, not because he is black.
 

Cheesy

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Their form wasn't great obviously, but then most Championship sides tend to go through severe fluctuations throughout the season at some point...and during previous meddling spells this season they'd already shown a tendency to bounce back. While the fact they'd won 4 in 12 sounds dreadfully bad, they'd been on a run of 3 in 4 until their most recent three games, with a couple of fairly impressive away wins in there as well. It's not the worst sacking, but difficult to see West Brom getting anyone significantly better.

But then maybe there's something to be said for being ruthless and ambitious. They were able to stay in the PL for a good few years despite being a relatively small club in spite of the fact they kept on sacking managers again and again.
 

Rozay

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You don't think similarly famous black players from the same generation (Rio, Ashley Cole, Andy Cole, etc) would get similar opportunities if they were interested? I guess we won't know because they are not interested (and I don't blame them!).

I'm struggling to think of any high profile black England internationals who have shown any interest in management. John Barnes' skin colour did not stop him getting fantastic first jobs in management.

It's only Sol Campbell nobody wants and that's because he is a massive weirdo, not because he is black.
No, I don’t. The route is typically harder I believe. White players appear to have greater privileges, and land jobs (or feel entitled to, in the case of Ryan Giggs) that they are massively under-qualified for. I think the black players typically have to work their way up from a lower rung.

I think when it comes to leadership, there is a stereotype of player who seems to ‘look the part’. The likes of Keane and Gerrard were always going to be given good jobs. People said they would make top managers even when they were players, because they fit a certain image. Even a drunk like Paul Merson started in the Championship if I’m not mistaken. I don’t think anyone looks at say, Daniel Sturridge or Raheem Sterling and think ‘management material’. I suspect they would say that Harry Kane is though. Or Phil Jones, to use an example who isn’t a club captain. It’s just what managers have always looked like.

Chris Hughton brought Newcastle up from the Championship, and then had them 6th in the league when he was inexplicably sacked for Alan Pardew. Like who the feck is he in the grand scheme of things?
 

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Their form wasn't great obviously, but then most Championship sides tend to go through severe fluctuations throughout the season at some point...and during previous meddling spells this season they'd already shown a tendency to bounce back. While the fact they'd won 4 in 12 sounds dreadfully bad, they'd been on a run of 3 in 4 until their most recent three games, with a couple of fairly impressive away wins in there as well. It's not the worst sacking, but difficult to see West Brom getting anyone significantly better.

But then maybe there's something to be said for being ruthless and ambitious. They were able to stay in the PL for a good few years despite being a relatively small club in spite of the fact they kept on sacking managers again and again.
Did you watch the video I posted?
 

Bojan11

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He won 8 out of the last 10 away games.

Like what the actual feck?
And equally 2 wins out of 12 at home. That’s awful for West Brom who have one of the best teams in the division.

Some West Brom fans seem to think he was right to go. We didn’t like it when media was saying shit like Moyes or Mourinho should have been given time. So unless we watched West Brom regularly, most of us don’t know the full story.

This will all be forgotten if the new manager comes in and they have a big bounce until the end of the season.
 

Cheesy

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Did you watch the video I posted?
I have now. I dunno, I think he makes some very fair points and I absolutely agree that there's a significant problem in English football (and indeed football as a whole) when it comes to a distinct lack of black managers.

But he's also incredibly selective with his evidence. He points to West Brom winning 8 of their last 10 away games (which is obviously superb) but completely ignores the fact they've only won 1 of their 9 last league games at home, which is absolutely dreadful for a side pursuing promotion. In fact - they've not even won at home this calendar year yet! That's terrible for any side in any division - before you consider they're one that's been competing for automatic promotion.

He's also incredibly selective in how he talks about Moore's virtues against Pulis' vices as well. He's correct to point out that Pulis had went on a poor run of form at the end of the 2016-17 season, but he completely ignores the fact that up until then they'd had an excellent year by their standards, around 7th or 8th for the majority of the season before then tailing off towards the end, still finishing 10th. They won the first two games of the following season before then spiraling. Pulis should've probably gone sooner, but Pulis is also a manager who's had an established track record of keeping smaller sides up and punching above their weight, even if he doesn't produce good football. A generous analysis of Pulis (like this one of Moore) would've suggested that it'd have been better to give him more time since he'd done alright there so far, and West Brom were far from condemned to relegation at that point - indeed they were still outside the bottom three. If he's going to talk about Moore producing excellent results against United and Spurs, he's got to grant Pulis' stint there the same leniency for when he was doing well.

Pardew's stint was a complete disaster, but I imagine the club would've been financially reluctant to sack another manager so soon after getting rid of Pulis. I don't remember the exact circumstances and whether or not Pardew was there for the season or with a view to staying long term, but if it was the latter then the club were obviously worried financially and would've wanted to give Pardew every chance to turn things around.

So, yes, he makes some fair points. Discussions of race have to understand that racial biases and prejudice is often incredibly subtle and not always deliberate - people absolutely can discriminate unconsciously because of what they deem to be 'normal,' or in this case what is perceived as successful. But at the same time here he omits various key facts and distorts the narrative to suit his own argument to an extent that's laughable.
 

Cheesy

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And equally 2 wins out of 12 at home. That’s awful for West Brom who have one of the best teams in the division.

Some West Brom fans seem to think he was right to go. We didn’t like it when media was saying shit like Moyes or Mourinho should have been given time. So unless we watched West Brom regularly, most of us don’t know the full story.

This will all be forgotten if the new manager comes in and they have a big bounce until the end of the season.
It's even worse if you look at it as 1 in 9 - and not a single league win this calendar year yet. Which is (I imagine) close to unheard of at this point for a Championship side in the top four that's not in utter free-fall.
 

duffer

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No, I don’t. The route is typically harder I believe. White players appear to have greater privileges, and land jobs (or feel entitled to, in the case of Ryan Giggs) that they are massively under-qualified for. I think the black players typically have to work their way up from a lower rung.

I think when it comes to leadership, there is a stereotype of player who seems to ‘look the part’. The likes of Keane and Gerrard were always going to be given good jobs. People said they would make top managers even when they were players, because they fit a certain image. Even a drunk like Paul Merson started in the Championship if I’m not mistaken. I don’t think anyone looks at say, Daniel Sturridge or Raheem Sterling and think ‘management material’. I suspect they would say that Harry Kane is though. Or Phil Jones, to use an example who isn’t a club captain. It’s just what managers have always looked like.

Chris Hughton brought Newcastle up from the Championship, and then had them 6th in the league when he was inexplicably sacked for Alan Pardew. Like who the feck is he in the grand scheme of things?
For lower profile managers, I can totally agree with you. Higher profile players can skip it.

I think that if Rio Ferdinand wanted to get into management, he could get at least the same sort of job as John Terry (assistant at a Championship side).

Henry was offered the Villa job before he made a big mess in Valencia.

Sure, nobody looks at Sturridge or Sterling as management material but I'd say the same about Rooney or Beckham, some personalities don't seem the type. Ledley King seemed a good fit and had great opportunity with the Spurs U18s but gave up because he was not interested.
 

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For lower profile managers, I can totally agree with you. Higher profile players can skip it.

I think that if Rio Ferdinand wanted to get into management, he could get at least the same sort of job as John Terry (assistant at a Championship side).

Henry was offered the Villa job before he made a big mess in Valencia.

Sure, nobody looks at Sturridge or Sterling as management material but I'd say the same about Rooney or Beckham, some personalities don't seem the type. Ledley King seemed a good fit and had great opportunity with the Spurs U18s but gave up because he was not interested.
Monaco?
 

Cheesy

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Yeah fair enough I looked into the home record and its not great but still comfortably in the playoff positions seems harsh at this stage, overly keen to sack him I still feel.
Perhaps is, but then West Brom are hardly renowned for their long-term managers.
 

Rozay

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For lower profile managers, I can totally agree with you. Higher profile players can skip it.

I think that if Rio Ferdinand wanted to get into management, he could get at least the same sort of job as John Terry (assistant at a Championship side).

Henry was offered the Villa job before he made a big mess in Valencia.

Sure, nobody looks at Sturridge or Sterling as management material but I'd say the same about Rooney or Beckham, some personalities don't seem the type. Ledley King seemed a good fit and had great opportunity with the Spurs U18s but gave up because he was not interested.
Yea, perhaps. Though I suspect Rooney will get a good job once he retires. He’s always said he wants to be a manager.

It’s the typical face of leadership. It starts during playing days even. Black players are rarely ever named England captain. You say Rooney doesn’t look like a manager but he was still named England captain (and United captain). Rio briefly got the gig before losing it to John Terry! Sol Campbell and Paul Ince could have been captain I think. Will be interesting to see who gets the captaincy going forward. Majority of England’s young talent are all black and mixed and white players may be a minority in a few years.

You’re right about Ledley King though. On the whole, given then percentage of black footballers in the PL, the black managers is massively disproportionate.
 

Minkaro

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I'm a bit perturbed by this decision.

I think Moore has his faults as a manager. Primarily he doesn't seem to be very good at reacting - if a game goes against West Brom, I don't think he's quite good enough at adjusting tactics or making substitutions with a view to turning things around. I'm also not a fan with some of his decisions, like playing Adarabioyo as a fullback, or the lop-sided three-man attacks that he favoured more recently, or the idea of allowing Chris Brunt and Ahmed Hegazi on the pitch at all.

But...they're fourth. They hadn't won in their last three games, but that's all. On top of that, they'd only spent about £10m on incoming players, the rest was free transfers and loans - and when you make that many loan signings surely it's going to be difficult to gel them all together (actually, I believe they can't actually play all of them because of a limit on how many loan players can be in one match day squad - iirc one has to miss out).

I think he was doing well considering the poor deal he'd got there, to be honest. They'd better hope whoever they bring in gets them promoted, because I can't see supporters being very happy about this.
 

Bojan11

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I just seen on a West Brom forum that 87 out of 156 supporters agreed with the sacking. So it’s not all clear cut as some people make it out to be. It’s not all one way traffic that fans at the club are shocked he’s gone like the press have you believe.
 

TGK

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Three relegated teams last year.....

Swansea - currently 15th in the Championship
Stoke - currently 16th in the Championship
West Brom - currently 4th in the Championship.

And West Brom finished bottom when they were relegated.

The West Brom guy loses his job.

I know there's been changes at the other clubs since, but either something has gone on that we don't know about, or it's just bat shit crazy.
 

Che Guevara

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Shocking, pathetic decision. Every team goes thru a bad patch sometimes, but they are still in the play-off places. He deserves a better club, and I hope it all goes downhill for West Brom from now on and they never get promoted.
 

SquishyMcSquish

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Shocking, pathetic decision. Every team goes thru a bad patch sometimes, but they are still in the play-off places. He deserves a better club, and I hope it all goes downhill for West Brom from now on and they never get promoted.
What if they end up getting automatically promoted this season, will it remain a shocking, pathetic decision to you? Even though it was clearly the right one and was successful?