Westminster Politics 2024-2029

You'd have the Suffragettes locked up for decades.


Remember the Court of Appeal specifically said that Palestine Action were terrorist, and they accepted that having 0.78% of their actions meeting the definition of terrorist was enough to prescribe them. They also mentioned that Palestine Action were not anything like the suffragettes, who were neither violent not did they use terrorist tactics.

Historical literacy of the judiciary.
 
The change to the Sentencing Act allowing for people to be convicted for non terrorist offences but sentenced as if they were terrorists is rife for abuse and should be repealed asap.
I don’t disagree, but there is lots of legislation that’s not fit for purpose.
 
The change to the Sentencing Act allowing for people to be convicted for non terrorist offences but sentenced as if they were terrorists is rife for abuse and should be repealed asap.

Why would they repeal it though? The government aren't giving up such direct control and that's what this is really.
 
Ah, you mean dealing with the existential threat of climate change? I agree.
Whatever one’s politics, I imagine there are lots of things far more important than what has been discussed the past few days.

Someone once said to me “relentless prioritisation”.

That’s what we need right now. Not faffing around.

I think it’s a disgrace that parliament has gone on recess. There’s far too much to do, and no one seems to want to put the pedal to the floor.
 
I am always sceptical of figures that quite comparisons from seemingly random years.

What was the welfare spend in 1998, 2004 and 2012, and 2024?

Always useful to pick particular years to enhance an argument, and make figures look better. My eyes can’t see those numbers in the graph - and I have refused to use twitter for a very long time.
Some data from a site ran by someone firmly on the right.
chart.png


https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/..._1202js_F0t40t00t_Time_Series_Public_Spending
 
You'd have the Suffragettes locked up for decades.
:lol:
Yes....suppose so, if they were supporting terrorists acts on behalf of another country; but they were asking for something within the british governments grasp, not for something our government cannot change.
 
:lol:
Yes....suppose so, if they were supporting terrorists acts on behalf of another country; but they were asking for something within the british governments grasp, not for something our government cannot change.
It's at moments like this that I remember that you're actually a total WUM and one of two principle reasons why I rarely post in politics threads here anymore.

Whilst I don't for a second think that you're actually missing the point to this extent, the actual cause itself isn't the issue, is it?
 
:lol:
Yes....suppose so, if they were supporting terrorists acts on behalf of another country; but they were asking for something within the british governments grasp, not for something our government cannot change.
The Anti-Apartheid movement is a more relevant example. Suppose that can be laughed off too.

Arms provision and logistical support is well within the governments grasp.
 
Whatever one’s politics, I imagine there are lots of things far more important than what has been discussed the past few days.

Someone once said to me “relentless prioritisation”.

That’s what we need right now. Not faffing around.

I think it’s a disgrace that parliament has gone on recess. There’s far too much to do, and no one seems to want to put the pedal to the floor.
Climate change is the most important issue in the history of humanity.

And yes, as someone on benefits, this country needs to spend more on benefits.
 
Really!!!
So its 'Protest for the sake of Protest...'
and you describe me as a WUM!
This isn't difficult stuff. The issue is the Government choosing to proscribe a protest group as a terrorist organisation, in a flagrant and authoritarian over-reach, resulting in a further wave of protest about the proscription. Therefore protests specifically about the proscription itself, rather than the persecution of the Palestinians, have arisen. Which our Government absolutely can change, and has direct parables to other protest movements, of any flavour, by definition.

So, that's protest against authoritarian restrictions on the right to protest, not "Protest for the sake of protest". There's protest against genocide and our Government's complicity in that act too, which also doesn't match your flippant description, and our Government can also influence and change respectively. Both are now intertwined. So, I guess that might qualify as some sort of dial being moved.

Describing two causes so important, one impacting the freedom to protest for all people and causes, the other a large groundswell of horror specifically regarding the events in Gaza, the Westbank and Israel and our Government's part in that as "protest for protest's sake" is hard to interpret as anything other than wummery, even if you actually agree with the Government's position on both points as seems might be the case, as you surely comprehend the points and have clearly observed events develop.

And, to be clear, there's no possibility of me going on the WUM with you, as I have no desire to torment my blood pressure.
 
Nice reminder


I'm not sure if you are saying this is bad or good, but it's unequivocally bad if you read the article which I assume you have done. The author explains each piece in detail: link

He goes through it piece by piece but, as an example:
So, how does welfare spending look when we examine it in real terms rather than as a share of GDP? (We apply our usual dismissal of nominal numbers as much to the welfare budget as to anything else). The low point for real terms welfare spending was 2019-20, the year before the pandemic, when a total of £280 billion was spent on welfare in Britain (in current prices). The latest projection for 2025-26 (with an adjustment for the Winter Fuel Payment U-turn) is for real spending to be £324 billion, some £44 billion higher (see Figure 2).
And he finishes with this bleak opinion:

What’s often missed out of the conversation around ‘out of control’ welfare spending, then, is that the standard social security system for working-age families has been cut to the bone since 2013. And many of these cuts – in particular the two-child limit and the ongoing freeze of both the benefit cap and Local Housing Allowance – continue to have an ever-deeper impact day after day. No wonder, then that we have stubbornly high child poverty and homelessness levels in Britain today.
Showing that even with cuts and making people's lives worse in an effort to stem rising welfare spending, we've just made people's lives worse. The article is essentially arguing that taxes will inevitably rise to cover this.

I don't think he's even going into the fact that our national debt is getting extremely close to 100% of GDP versus, for example using this graph, 36% in the 08 crisis.
 
This isn't difficult stuff. The issue is the Government choosing to proscribe a protest group as a terrorist organisation, in a flagrant and authoritarian over-reach, resulting in a further wave of protest about the proscription
These first two sentences indicates how much you are 'over protesting' about protesting!

The government proscribed a protest group that was protesting on behalf of a terrorist group who were dedicated to 'Action' ...it is in their name for goodness sake. The 'action' it chose was to invade military areas and damage military equipment and was correctly categorised as terrorist actions.

Subsequent demonstrations which supported the proscribed group, (which admits it committed acts of terror, but it was apparently 'only a little bit terrorising') involved a kid with a 'piss-take' banner, ' who was initially arrested (for 5 mins) incorrectly, then released.

'Me, thinks you protest too much'!

Moreover, Britain has had no authority in or over Palestine since the late 1940's. When it did via the Palestine Police (British} lost 141 service people and had 475 wounded/injury in this period through trying to contain the terror activities of Irgun, Lehi (Stern Gang) and temporarily Haganah.

Britain now has no responsibility or authority or duty to be involved and should not seek to be involved in Palestine.

* On a personal note
An uncle of mine served in the Palestine police 1945-47, he was wounded twice, the second time requiring his discharge and he carried a limp which he retained for the rest of his life.
His generation paid Britain's price for trying to keep two warring parties at bay, two people's who are to this day still at each others throat.

If my uncle were still here I know would say to the government of the UK... "stay well out of it".
 
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These first two sentences indicates how much you are 'over protesting' about protesting!

The government proscribed a protest group that was protesting on behalf of a terrorist group who were dedicated to 'Action' ...it is in their name for goodness sake. The 'action' it chose was to invade military areas and damage military equipment and was correctly categorised as terrorist actions.

Subsequent demonstrations which supported the proscribed group, (which admits it committed acts of terror, but it was apparently 'only a little bit terrorising') involved a kid with a 'piss-take' banner, ' who was initially arrested (for 5 mins) incorrectly, then released.

'Me, thinks you protest too much'!

Moreover, Britain has had no authority in or over Palestine since the late 1940's. When it did via the Palestine Police (British} lost 141 service people and had 475 wounded/injury in this period through trying to contain the terror activities of Irgun, Lehi (Stern Gang) and temporarily Haganah.

Britain now has no responsibility or authority or duty to be involved and should not seek to be involved in Palestine.

* On a personal note
An uncle of mine served in the Palestine police 1945-47, he was wounded twice, the second time requiring his discharge and he carried a limp which he retained for the rest of his life.
His generation paid Britain's price for trying to keep two warring parties at bay, two people's who are to this day still at each others throat.

If my uncle where still here I know would say to the government of the UK... "stay well out of it".
"Methinks" , as I said before, you'd have the suffragettes in jail for decades. Of course you'd think that proscribing Palestine Action as a terrorist group was totally fine.

You're also just making stuff up regarding anyone in Palestinian Action "admit(ting) (they) committed acts of terror". I assume that you're referring to the Brize Norton incident, the embarrassment of which is the trigger for the the terrorism proscription, despite RAF engineers stating the spray paint administered would "not affect operations". Or maybe the Filton Elbit incident, when the defendants, despite not being allowed to provide context for their actions in court (and their barrister being charged with contempt of court for doing so when summing up), were tried on standard charges and their sentences then subsequently being increased due to "terrorist connections"? Or are you referring to the hundreds of citizens arrested for holding placards, being charged under perverse application of terrorist laws, as a consequence of direct inappropriate proscription rather than just charging the culprits of the above crimes under pre-existing laws?

What is the point of your mystifying digression into Britain's authority over Palestine in the 1940s? Do you think anyone protesting is expecting Britain to be militarily involved or are labouring under the illusion that we retain any jurisdiction in Palestine? People, in fact, have been protesting against our logistical support and arms exports for and to Israel. Which is very much in the capacity of Government to influence, as would sections against the state of Israel be. We're not, as your uncle might have stated, "stay(ing) well out of it".

To be clear, but you know this, many ordinary and brave people are now protesting the Government's decision to proscribe Palestine Action precisely because it is a transparent authoritarian over-reach. You seem to be ok with this, but I don't for a second believe that you're not cognisant of the wider ramifications of this decision and the precedent it has set ,nor the further issues caused by the current proposals to ban repeat protests. Whether you agree with the cause, or the actions of this particular group, the application of the Terrorism Act in this case should be of concern to all citizens of this country, as well as being a nightmare to police even without Plasticine Action "piss-take banner(s)". The fact that Palestine Action was proscribed in the same act as Neo-Nazi groups (including the snappily titled "Maniacs Murder Cult), and joins an illustrious list including Al Qa'ida and the Wagner Group, is as chilling as it is egregious and it is notable that we don't have octogenarians being nicked for holding cardboard stating "I support the Maniacs Murder Cult". There's a reason for that, and it is very obvious.
 
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Methinks" , as I said before, you'd have the suffragettes in jail for decades. Of course you'd think that proscribing Palestine Action as a terrorist group was totally fine.
Of course "you think" you know what I would have advocated for the suffragettes, but as on other matters this is purely of your own invention. Since it was by your introduction I agreed that had they been supporting a terrorist interest, in another country, then yes they may well have become a proscribed organisation.

Members of Palestine Action did enter a government establishment and attacked and damaged military equipment and were found guilty of acts of terrorism.

It's that simple.
 
Even if you look at it from that perspective. There are far more important things to focus on.
Not really... We're moving towards Idi Amin "You have freedom of speech, not freedom after speech" territory. At a time when the judiciary and penal system is under immense pressure, with only 2,000 prison places left, droves of prison officers leaving due to terrible pay and conditions - all the while releasing actual despicable people - this government has decided to criminalise middle class protestors with the UTMOST severity of sentence (terrorism, effectively modern day treason).

As a result, courts are overwhelmed because the police are arresting people for simply saying "I stand with Palestine Action".

It's a flagrant abuse of power and should be repealed, as I'm sure it will eventually be due to the insanity of it.
 
Of course "you think" you know what I would have advocated for the suffragettes, but as on other matters this is purely of your own invention. Since it was by your introduction I agreed that had they been supporting a terrorist interest, in another country, then yes they may well have become a proscribed organisation.

Members of Palestine Action did enter a government establishment and attacked and damaged military equipment and were found guilty of acts of terrorism.

It's that simple.

No, that's not the case. The individuals who broke into RAF Brize Norton have not yet been tried, and are on remand. They are not being tried for terrorist offences either.

There was a separate break-in at Elbit Systems in 2024 where the perpetrators were convicted of non-terrorist offences after Palestine Action had been proscribed in 2025, and were then sentenced as if they had committed terrorist offences.

This was a power available to the trial judge under section 69 of the Sentencing Act 2020, and applied even though at the time of the action, Palestine Action was not designated as a terrorist organisation, and there was no evidence of 'terrorist motivation' presented by the prosecution at trial. This is controversial as the judge banned the defendants from giving evidence as to their motivations at trial, claiming it was irrelevant. The judge then concluded their motivations were terrorist in nature himself.

All of this is lawful and approved by Parliament.

The definition of terrorism under the 2000 Terrorism Act is also very broad. It allows for the UK Government to proscribe an organisation as terrorist if they caused "serious damage to property" with a view to influence the Israeli government. That was the basis of the proscription order, and the Court of Appeal upheld that rationale as lawful under the meaning of the 2000 Act.
 
A good friend of mine was a copper, and he can barely write, so we are fecked.

He is really fat as well. So physical education is needed also.
no point trying to be good at your job as an immigrant is only going to come and take it anyway.
 
This is from paragraph 148 of the High Court judgment of Ammori:

“the proscription decision was based on 385 actions committed over 5 years, only three of which were categorised as terrorist incidents”

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/R-Ammori-v-SSHD-OPEN-Judgment-final.pdf

The High Court ruled proscribing Palestine Action was disproportionate, because only 3 of 385 actions committed by the group met the legal standard of terrorism, defined as 'serious damage to property' designed to influence the government.

That's 0.78%.

The Court of Appeal ruled that this was enough to show that the group were terrorist, and they upheld the government's ban.

https://www.judiciary.uk/judgments/home-secretary-v-huda-ammori/

Palestine Action was bundled together in a single order for proscription in July 2025 with two neo-Nazi groups, Maniacs Murder Cult and Russian Imperial Movement.

MPs and Peers were obliged to proscribe all three together or none of them. The Order could not be amended. Parliamentarians could only vote against proscribing Palestine Action if they were prepared to assist overtly violent organisations in avoiding proscription.

It does give the impression that the Government wanted to guarantee the proscription of PA, and had concluded that if MPs had just the option of PA alone, they would not have banned it.
 
The judge then concluded their motivations were terrorist in nature himself.
Ok fair enough, but is this judge getting the old 'heave-ho' then because he decided?

This was a power available to the trial judge under section 69 of the Sentencing Act 2020,

So, is the Judge not able to reach this conclusion on this hearing of the case, given the above?
All of this is lawful and approved by Parliament.
So what is the issue here?
The definition of terrorism under the 2000 Terrorism Act is also very broad. It allows for the UK Government to proscribe an organisation as terrorist if they caused "serious damage to property" .
Suppose it all comes down to what is considered 'serious damage' and what is considered 'property'!
 
Of course "you think" you know what I would have advocated for the suffragettes, but as on other matters this is purely of your own invention. Since it was by your introduction I agreed that had they been supporting a terrorist interest, in another country, then yes they may well have become a proscribed organisation.

Members of Palestine Action did enter a government establishment and attacked and damaged military equipment and were found guilty of acts of terrorism.

It's that simple.
It's not that simple though, is it?

What terrorist interest in another country were Palestine Action supporting?

Who was found guilty of terrorism? Are you referring to Elbit incident where defendants were found guilty of terrorism, because that's not what happened and they weren't. Rather their sentences were raised after the fact due to the judge linking their actions to terrorism due to the proscription, and the Brize Norton lot are still on remand. Struggling to follow you now to be honest.

Even if they were found guilty of terrorism, that'd only be because of the proscription which is the whole point of contention in the first place.
 
So what is the issue here?
How can you ask this question? Is this actually a comprehension issue here? The whole problem stems from the broad reaching powers under this act, especially when applied to this particular group in an egregious, petty and ridiculous manner by the current Government. It's literally the main point that is being discussed.
 
Ok fair enough, but is this judge getting the old 'heave-ho' then because he decided?



So, is the Judge not able to reach this conclusion on this hearing of the case, given the above?

So what is the issue here?

Suppose it all comes down to what is considered 'serious damage' and what is considered 'property'!

The ultimate issue here is that terrorism laws are over-broad, and it gives a lot of power to governments in relation to the individual. That's always been a concern of civil libertarians.

For example, the legal definition of terrorism is much wider than the common shared definition among the public. Under the 2000 Act, the suffragettes and suffragists absolutely would have been committed terrorist acts.

The defence from government was always "we need broad powers to ensure no-one falls between the cracks", but the reality is all the anti-asylum and anti-immigration riots also fulfil the definition of terrorism under the law. It gives governments far too much power. Bear in mind as well no-one sensible is claiming Palestine Action are blameless. There are huge amounts of 'ordinary' criminal offences that could be used here to police the group, including all the anti-protest laws passed in the last 5 years.

In relation to this trial judge, and all trial judges, they are permitted via Act of Parliament to reach those conclusions. Again, however, process is lacking. You or I could be charged with a non-terrorist offence, the CPS could present evidence and a jury could convict us. Then the law allows the CPS to lobby individual judges to effectively upgrade our offences from non-terrorist to terrorist, meaning we are not eligible for early prison release and we are subject to police and security service restrictions for the rest of our lives. And all that having not been convicted by our peers of a terrorist offence.

The objection here is surely - if I am guilty of a terrorist offence, charge me appropriately and convince a jury of my guilt.
 
What terrorist interest in another country were Palestine Action supporting?
Israel, was the other country, and Elbit Systems is the primary supplier of much of Israel's land based equipment and unmanned aerial equipment and where the break-in took place.

Are you referring to Elbit incident where defendants were found guilty of terrorism,
Yes, see above.
Brize Norton lot are still on remand.
Correct!

Struggling to follow you now to be honest.
Thank you for your honesty, I had begin to wonder if that was the case.
 
Israel, was the other country, and Elbit Systems is the primary supplier of much of Israel's land based equipment and unmanned aerial equipment and where the break-in took place.
Interested in hearing your thoughts on what terrorist acts Palestine Action are supporting in Israel, because this might be the crux of the entire matter.
 
A good friend of mine was a copper, and he can barely write, so we are fecked.

He is really fat as well. So physical education is needed also.
Well you're truly fecked now because a certain former Government sold off the playing fields

Mind you, I can barely write legibly these days, use it or lose it fits here, I've spent the last 30 years working on computers so never use paper and pens, I suspect that applies to a lot of people nowadays
 
Well you're truly fecked now because a certain former Government sold off the playing fields

Mind you, I can barely write legibly these days, use it or lose it fits here, I've spent the last 30 years working on computers so never use paper and pens, I suspect that applies to a lot of people nowadays
Apart from having to sign something, the only time I use a pen/pencil is making notes when I'm on the phone or in meeting. But then I can't even understand half of what I wrote down! Handwriting is definitely a dying art.
 
Apart from having to sign something, the only time I use a pen/pencil is making notes when I'm on the phone or in meeting. But then I can't even understand half of what I wrote down! Handwriting is definitely a dying art.
Signing something is basically all I ever do, I don't do notes anymore because I'm incapable of dechipering it afterwards + all my meetings are in Teams that provides a transcript!
 
Signing something is basically all I ever do, I don't do notes anymore because I'm incapable of dechipering it afterwards + all my meetings are in Teams that provides a transcript!
We've stopped bothering with the Teams transcripts. Far too much foul language so most of it is asterisks! :lol:
 
Well you're truly fecked now because a certain former Government sold off the playing fields

Mind you, I can barely write legibly these days, use it or lose it fits here, I've spent the last 30 years working on computers so never use paper and pens, I suspect that applies to a lot of people nowadays
Everyone wants more and more houses…

The WhatsApp messages he sends are incoherent. On the plus side he finds the best videos on TikTok as he spends about 10 hours a day scrolling. Can’t imagine he ever did any work.
 
The ultimate issue here is that terrorism laws are over-broad, and it gives a lot of power to governments in relation to the individual
In today's complex world such matters are understandable and somewhat inevitable.

Personal freedoms, rights etc are going to be even further curtailed for governments to have any hope of keeping us all safe in the future.

That is why it is essential, perhaps more than ever, that we elect people that can ensure the development of our constitution, our laws, etc.are not based on precedence alone.

This aspect in particular involves the public having complete trust in the ability as well as the honesty and foresight of all future governments.

Recent attempts via e.g. the Hillsborough law, etc are only the curtain-raiser. With AI now almost certain to change almost everything, the phrase will be " In Government we have to Trust".
 
I wish I could post constant shite like @Maticmaker and never get a warning for it.

Post a bunch of shite, ignore responses that ask him to clarify his points (because he wouldn't want to single himself out, would he?) post more shite. Rinse and repeat.

By the way, the UK doesn't have a codified constitution. Not that it's the only thing wrong with your constant shite.
 
Just put him on ignore.
About 90% of the replies to him are 'what the hell are you talking about?' and correcting every second detail in his posts. Then he makes more or less the same post with more or less the same mistakes a day later and gets 20 'what the hell are you taking about?' replies. Its just redundant.
 
I wish I could post constant shite like @Maticmaker and never get a warning for it.

Post a bunch of shite, ignore responses that ask him to clarify his points (because he wouldn't want to single himself out, would he?) post more shite. Rinse and repeat.

By the way, the UK doesn't have a codified constitution. Not that it's the only thing wrong with your constant shite.
Despite your Staff status, whatever that means, who are you to judge the opinions of others.
This is an open forum and posters are entitled to post their options.
You have the easiest option.... don't read what he says if it offends you