Westminster Politics

africanspur

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As I have in vain tried to explain that the reason Europeans had the right to freedom of movement, provided they could support themselves, was that the agreement was signed between members of the EU for the freedom of movement of labour, capital, goods and services. It works very well for the majority of European countries especially being so geographically close, not because they are majority white.
So when Zambia or Egypt or Uzbekistan sign up to the same type of agreement now that the UK have left the EU maybe they can have freedom of movement as well .

Signing a FTA with India will almost certainly involve some sort of freedom of movement, just hope that the other Brexiters are of the same mindset.

We seem to be going round in circles with you confusing racism and xenophobia and you were the one who brought up white people and keep going on about it. You also laugh at British white people thinking they've reduced immigration but can't see that the people you are apologising for are doing exactly the same thing.

What really interests me is whether the people you are defending who voted for Brexit did not consider the other consequences of their vote. All that worried them was whether they thought their aunty's cousin could have a minutely better chance to move to the UK but had no consideration for the problems the economy would suffer or the problems in Ireland or the thousands of other problems the UK has brought upon itself which will become apparent gradually over the coming months and years with an especially sharp shock in January. After all , presumably they are going to have to live with those consequences .
Yes, an elementary school child could tell you that. I didn't say that they signed it because they are majority white, I said that they are limited to white majority European countries. Hence your phrase about you not caring who your neighbour is...is quite moot. Most Europeans will have a white neighbour, regardless of where they live.

Signing an agreement with India will almost certainly open up more visa opportunities for their citizens, which, as we've both said, Im sure a portion of the population will not be happy with.

How am I confusing racism and xenophobia, when I don't think the people in question are showing either? How are the people 'I'm apologising for' (Im apologising for nothing by the way, as their decision has nothing to do with me. I'm merely trying to explain, in the face of total intransigence, why some people made the decision they did, even if I do not agree). You have decided that pretty much everyone who voted a certain way is a slobbering racist/xenophobe and have arguably one of the most patronising approaches I've encountered on this board so, you're right, this is a bit of a waste of time and, in fairness, totally my fault for engaging in the first place, knowing full well the precedent you have set.

Like many other Brexiteers, I doubt many of them thought through their decision either, no. But then again, I have never really claimed this, nor do I have any particular intention to continue to explain the motives of a group of people who have made a move I am diametrically opposed to. What I do reject is to label them all racist and the ridiculous arrogance of not even being able to accept a line of thinking as legitimate, even if you yourself do not agree with it at all.
 

africanspur

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That was the Return of the Clap, not the original I thought?
He's literally one of the dweebiest and most disgusting people in the cabinet. Though admittedly I tend to find myself thinking this every time I see any one of them pop up on my screen.
 

africanspur

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I think it was pretty obvious to anyone listening to both sides. It was always a fairy tale to cut immigration to the low 10's of thousands and if those immigrants weren't to come out of the EU they'd always come from non EU countries...

A service economy tailored to the needs of the elite; where government contracts go to those with connections to the ruling party, and the laws are made to suit them. Those contracts can be made without any checks other than by the civil servants who've been repeatedly whipped by that same ruling party. Consumer manufacturing will be limited to goods that are high margin or can survive in the UK market alone (others will still be allowed to sell in Europe, but they won't be competitive), and far away lands won't make up for it. Exporting services, crucial to the UK, will be hit even worse. By the time Boris' current premiership is over the UK economy will be a very different one to that of 2015.

It isn't impossible for Britain to reinvent itself and find other ways to prosperity. But so far I've seen very little actual evidence of that happening. The tories plan so far is to stay in every part of europe they fancy and cry and piss their pants anytime someone tells them no. That won't help much from january on.
I think it was pretty obvious to anyone listening to both sides. It was always a fairy tale to cut immigration to the low 10's of thousands and if those immigrants weren't to come out of the EU they'd always come from non EU countries...

A service economy tailored to the needs of the elite; where government contracts go to those with connections to the ruling party, and the laws are made to suit them. Those contracts can be made without any checks other than by the civil servants who've been repeatedly whipped by that same ruling party. Consumer manufacturing will be limited to goods that are high margin or can survive in the UK market alone (others will still be allowed to sell in Europe, but they won't be competitive), and far away lands won't make up for it. Exporting services, crucial to the UK, will be hit even worse. By the time Boris' current premiership is over the UK economy will be a very different one to that of 2015.

It isn't impossible for Britain to reinvent itself and find other ways to prosperity. But so far I've seen very little actual evidence of that happening. The tories plan so far is to stay in every part of europe they fancy and cry and piss their pants anytime someone tells them no. That won't help much from january on.
I think it was obvious for those with at least some common sense but I would say there was a reasonable minority who genuinely thought we'd be slashing immigration.

As for the rest of the post, fair enough. I can't pretend I'm an economic expert and honestly, I think I'm too emotionally exhausted to still be as devastated as I was initially! I obviously hope that won't come to pass but we'll see.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Yes, an elementary school child could tell you that. I didn't say that they signed it because they are majority white, I said that they are limited to white majority European countries. Hence your phrase about you not caring who your neighbour is...is quite moot. Most Europeans will have a white neighbour, regardless of where they live.

Signing an agreement with India will almost certainly open up more visa opportunities for their citizens, which, as we've both said, Im sure a portion of the population will not be happy with.

How am I confusing racism and xenophobia, when I don't think the people in question are showing either? How are the people 'I'm apologising for' (Im apologising for nothing by the way, as their decision has nothing to do with me. I'm merely trying to explain, in the face of total intransigence, why some people made the decision they did, even if I do not agree). You have decided that pretty much everyone who voted a certain way is a slobbering racist/xenophobe and have arguably one of the most patronising approaches I've encountered on this board so, you're right, this is a bit of a waste of time and, in fairness, totally my fault for engaging in the first place, knowing full well the precedent you have set.

Like many other Brexiteers, I doubt many of them thought through their decision either, no. But then again, I have never really claimed this, nor do I have any particular intention to continue to explain the motives of a group of people who have made a move I am diametrically opposed to. What I do reject is to label them all racist and the ridiculous arrogance of not even being able to accept a line of thinking as legitimate, even if you yourself do not agree with it at all.
So why mention white at all, it's the European Union, a union between European countries. You're making it up as you go along.

No I don't think they are all racists or xenophobes, some certainly are , I actually think they are uninformed ignorant morons, maybe that helps. Xenophobia and racism are parts of that.
But you don't think that people who voted to stop people of other nationalities being able to benefit isn't xenophobic, right.

Your words; One thing I'd tried to explain on here in the past, whilst trying to move past stereotypes, regarding why some people from immigrant backgrounds voted for Brexit is that, in their own words, they didn't feel it was right that a Frenchman or Italian should have it so much easier to come here than an Indian or Egyptian.

India and Egypt were not in and never will be in the EU.

So now the UK have left the EU and the UK's, especially the Tories, intention is for overall immigration to be one third of what is is today . So they voted for Brexit because they were unbelievably stupid? Don't tell me, they voted for the Tories as well.

I remember you also saying that not all people who voted for Brexit were stupid and some were even intelligent and some voted for Brexit because of EU bureaucracy. Surprise!
 

africanspur

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So why mention white at all, it's the European Union, a union between European countries. You're making it up as you go along.

No I don't think they are all racists or xenophobes, some certainly are , I actually think they are uninformed ignorant morons, maybe that helps. Xenophobia and racism are parts of that.
But you don't think that people who voted to stop people of other nationalities being able to benefit isn't xenophobic, right.

Your words; One thing I'd tried to explain on here in the past, whilst trying to move past stereotypes, regarding why some people from immigrant backgrounds voted for Brexit is that, in their own words, they didn't feel it was right that a Frenchman or Italian should have it so much easier to come here than an Indian or Egyptian.

India and Egypt were not in and never will be in the EU.

So now the UK have left the EU and the UK's, especially the Tories, intention is for overall immigration to be one third of what is is today . So they voted for Brexit because they were unbelievably stupid? Don't tell me, they voted for the Tories as well.

I remember you also saying that not all people who voted for Brexit were stupid and some were even intelligent and some voted for Brexit because of EU bureaucracy. Surprise!
As usual Paul, I feel myself draining brain cells while engaging with you as you continue to totally and utterly miss the point. The fact that you think it is an unquestionable right that a European should always have preference over a non-European, so much so that them not having that is 'discrimination' in your eyes, shows incredible privilege.

I'm sure you'll never see that though or understand the often humiliating processes we go through (and I went through when first arriving in Europe or my FiL did or my wife's newphew did) to be allowed into these countries, even for a holiday (and no, I don't think the UK will change that after Brexit before you make yet another snide remark).

As I said though, it was my mistake for engaging in the first place. I've genuinely had more fruitful discussions with people on here who have diametrically opposed views to me on race, politics, football, religion, Covid, pretty much everything. Yet my most frustrating discussions on here have to be the Brexit ones with you, even though we would have voted the same way. Mind boggling.

And maybe the Bale vs Nani ones too actually......
 
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Smores

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Hancock out to spin their new line of argument this morning that because they fund councils then the government have already done what Rashford wanted :rolleyes:

There were more and more of those graphics on council funding appearing over the weekend on twitter.
 

Pexbo

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Boris lying again, surely not:

I fecking knew this would be the case when Hancock said it this morning. You could tell by the way he answered the question that he was lying and they didn’t follow it up at all. They really should have asked “what communication? who with and what was being discussed?”
 

Paul the Wolf

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As usual Paul, I feel myself draining brain cells while engaging with you as you continue to totally and utterly miss the point. The fact that you think it is an unquestionable right that a European should always have preference over a non-European, so much so that them not having that is 'discrimination' in your eyes, shows incredible privilege.

I'm sure you'll never see that though or understand the often humiliating processes we go through (and I went through when first arriving in Europe or my FiL did or my wife's newphew did) to be allowed into these countries, even for a holiday (and no, I don't think the UK will change that after Brexit before you make yet another snide remark).

As I said though, it was my mistake for engaging in the first place. I've genuinely had more fruitful discussions with people on here who have diametrically opposed views to me on race, politics, football, religion, Covid, pretty much everything. Yet my most frustrating discussions on here have to be the Brexit ones with you, even though we would have voted the same way. Mind boggling.

And maybe the Bale vs Nani ones too actually......
Perhaps you should start using a few brain cells, might help. You have completely missed the point for the nth time.

Where did I say that Europeans should have privilege over non-Europeans, Where did I say that the process is not arduous and humiliating in the UK.
The Uk was in a union that was conditional on the four freedoms, they are not going to enter into a similar one allowing freedom of movement of Zambians or Uzbekistanis

These people voted for Brexit, for whatever reason, the result of which will stop Europeans gaining easier access to the UK, fine, if that is the intention of your voters. So discriminating against certain nationalities. If we can't have it, nor can they - even though the people who voted this already have British citizenship , if not they wouldn't have been able to vote.
Whereas there were British born people living abroad who couldn't vote, there were EU nationals who had made their lives in the UK but never took the step to take British citizenship because they didn't think they needed to and couldn't vote. The same for British people living in the EU.

So at the end of the day, these voters have voted for leaving the EU, - outcome of which all Brexiters insist they knew what they voted for- no the process for non-EU immigrants has not been easier, yes the economy will collapse, yes the currency will collapse, yes the bureacracy will be unseen in your lifetime, the difficulties of importing and exporting goods and services will be unbelievably difficult and all the thousands of things that were taken for granted until the end of this year will be finished forever.

Maybe they should write to their MP telling Johnson and Dominic that they fulfilled their part of the bargain by wilfully trying to destroy the UK's economy , trying to cause trouble in Ireland and why... because my aunty's cousin wants a better chance of being able to live in the UK.

Hey Dom, says Johnson, got another one of these crank letters, you were right, the electorate are as dumb as you said they were. Yes Boris, they confirmed that by voting you in with an 80 seat majoirty
 

calodo2003

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How can the Tories be so wrong on so much? I just started paying attention to this thread a couple of days ago, as a Yank, I’ve kept British politics in limited view, but these feckers seem even more tone deaf than our current right wing scum.

These mensas have to have kids in school, yes? Some of them also have to be in the lower socioeconomic classes, yes?

It’s just utterly baffling.
 

neverdie

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Some of them also have to be in the lower socioeconomic classes, yes?
No.

The tories are the party of aspirational selfishnesh. The support they do have from the working classes is based on the idea that poor people can also be rich if they work hard enough. The last election was a once off as traditional Labour voters in the north were in favour of Brexit and Labour's position was too hard to understand. But it's by selling the image of rags to riches via hard work that the tories manage to prompt people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds to question the role of the state which they themselves very much depend on.
 

calodo2003

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No.

The tories are the party of aspirational selfishnesh. The support they do have from the working classes is based on the idea that poor people can also be rich if they work hard enough. The last election was a once off as traditional Labour voters in the north were in favour of Brexit and Labour's position was too hard to understand. But it's by selling the image of rags to riches via hard work that the tories manage to prompt people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds to question the role of the state which they themselves very much depend on.
That’s similar to what we heard today from the nepotistic prince of our Tories - Kushner said that our biggest minority group in the country needs to ‘stop complaining’ & just want to have success more to actually succeed.
 

jeff_goldblum

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How can the Tories be so wrong on so much? I just started paying attention to this thread a couple of days ago, as a Yank, I’ve kept British politics in limited view, but these feckers seem even more tone deaf than our current right wing scum.

These mensas have to have kids in school, yes? Some of them also have to be in the lower socioeconomic classes, yes?

It’s just utterly baffling.
Tory voters skew to older demographics so likely the majority of them don't have school-age kids. The big story of the last 10 years in the UK has been an older generation who benefitted hugely from a strong economy built on immigration and strong ties with Europe, the welfare state, social housing, free education and healthcare repeatedly throwing their weight behind for a Tory party hell-bent on dismantling the whole lot.
 

Dobba

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"You and your paper can feck off."
I fecking knew this would be the case when Hancock said it this morning. You could tell by the way he answered the question that he was lying and they didn’t follow it up at all. They really should have asked “what communication? who with and what was being discussed?”
You seem to have Britain confused with a country that has journalists with any interest in holding power to account.
 

TheGame

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How low can you go? Think lower than that and Cleverly will go there. How over 3K people like this is pathetic and indicative of some people in this country.

 

Fingeredmouse

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It's an obvious tactical direction and the trans-Atlantic gestalt right have been manoeuvring this way for quite a while. The Nazis are left, the left are the antisemites, the left are intolerant and unreasonable, Antifa are a violent revolutionary force, the left are the real racists.
It'll also, to an extent, work. It already is.
Expect editorials in their press on the racist left soon enough.
 

esmufc07

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Hope Rishi is able to overcome such a devastating attack.
 

Sparky_Hughes

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Awwwww diddums, are the thieving, Dickensian caricatures of humans a little bit sad about being called scum? maybe they could set up another bullshit company and steal another few million from the public purse to help them feel better. Utter cnuts.

 

Smores

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The Rishi attack ad is abysmal.

Yeah agreed it just doesn't work. The plebs love that the Tories are rich, they're drawn to being ruled by wealth. That ad just makes Sunak more appealing.

I'm not even sure why you'd attack Sunak given the state of the rest of them.
 

Untied

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Yeah agreed it just doesn't work. The plebs love that the Tories are rich, they're drawn to being ruled by wealth. That ad just makes Sunak more appealing.

I'm not even sure why you'd attack Sunak given the state of the rest of them.
One of the weird things about the current crisis is Sunak is probably one of the key reasons for the lack of financial support for the north, encouraging people to go back to work in September, the removal of furlough support, the lack of funds to feed children, etc

And yet is somehow continuing to stay incredibly popular.

(Oh, and all these dodgy contracts. It's treasury money at the end of the day)