Westminster Politics

[Buster15]

Re: Tony Blair interview on Newsnight last night!

He wants to "rebuild the center of British Politics"

He says "Labour has to convince the electorate that they can govern" (apparently so that some Tory voters will switch to Lib Dems)

Labour cannot support the SNP because they both want something different, ( assume he means Labour has to get its finger out in Scotland)

He does support Starmer

Despite the past, you have to admit most politicians today cannot hold a candle to this man, his method of speaking, his facial expressions, his sideward glances when making a really important point, the 'mind set' that he knows best!

I was a fan of Tony Blair and we must remember that he lead Labour to 3 election wins.
New Labour was a great concept at the time and certainly did a number of very good things.
His legacy is obviously tarnished with Iraq and always will be.
And I have been honest enough to say that I was a supporter of that policy at the time.

I am always a bit concerned when previous PMs in particular keep stepping into public life with their comments and appearances. And because of the strength of feeling still about Iraq, whether he is actually harming the Labour party.

He was a very astute and skillful politician. But I just don't think people are prepared to listen to him anymore.

 

[MUW4Eva]

From what I know of @Sweet Square they'd be saying that whether it were a male or female MP. It's somewhat hypocritical for a Labour MP to be attending events commonly perceived as upper-class instead of supporting workers on a picket line.

Please explain to me how the opera is an upper class event??
It most definitely isn't, it is thankfully open to everyone.
So by trying to portray her going to it, as a negative, is somewhat coming across as sexist.
What events would be okay for her to go to exactly??

 

[That'sHernandez]

Please explain to me how the opera is an upper class event??
It most definitely isn't, it is thankfully open to everyone.
So by trying to portray her going to it, as a negative, is somewhat coming across as sexist.
What events would be okay for her to go to exactly??

I am not saying the opera is not open to everyone. I said it is perceived by many to be something only the upper class people attend, and the same thing would be said if a male Labour MP went to the opera instead of supporting striking workers as a female MP...

It's a free country, she is free to attend any event she wishes. Just don't complain about the optics as a Labour MP who is meant to stand for the working class when she does things that aren't typically associated with the working class.

I personally don't care that she went to the opera but I can see the hypocrisy.

 

[That'sHernandez]

im sorry but this is patronising nonsense. akin to saying Raynor should know her place.

What are you on about?

 

[Superden]

I am not saying the opera is not open to everyone. I said it is perceived by many to be something only the upper class people attend, and the same thing would be said if a male Labour MP went to the opera instead of supporting striking workers as a female MP...

It's a free country, she is free to attend any event she wishes. Just don't complain about the optics as a Labour MP who is meant to stand for the working class when she does things that aren't typically associated with the working class.

I personally don't care that she went to the opera but I can see the hypocrisy.

you dont care, but you can see the hypocrisy?

should ' working class' people stick to the working mens clubs and a pint of mixed?

 

[That'sHernandez]

you dont care, but you can see the hypocrisy?

should ' working class' people stick to the working mens clubs and a pint of mixed?

No, but most 'working class' people aren't MPs in a party which represents the working class. When you want to be elected to government, those sorts of optics matter.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

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The head of the Department of Culture, Media and Sport; has never said anything even slightly interesting about art or culture, didn't know Channel 4 is not in receipt of public funding and can't be fecking arsed to find out the differences between Union and League when going speaking at a League event. She is easily the worst minister of the crown there has ever been and she's up against some exceedingly stiff competition.

 

[neverdie]

Please explain to me how the opera is an upper class event??

opera is more often patronised by members of the middle, upper middle, and upper classes. that's a sociological fact. doesn't make it an upper class event but does explain why the association exists.

should ' working class' people stick to the working mens clubs and a pint of mixed?

no, but MPs supposed to be representing a working class party largely made up of union support could try supporting unions.

 

[Sweet Square]

Please explain to me how the opera is an upper class event??
It most definitely isn't, it is thankfully open to everyone.

Btw if you check the festival Rayner went to(Yes I’m actually that bored currently)the average ticket price is over £150. Rayner has a job which pays over £80,000. The fact she went to this festival is good evidence that it’s a upper class event.

And again this is all in her favour because we taking about some shite opera event instead of the fact the deputy leader of the Labour Party isn’t backing striking workers.

I'd say you can have working class roots and have a lot of money now, but still understand what it's like to grow up without money. Rashford obviously has seen what it can be like and is actively trying to help based on that experience but you couldn't consider either him or his family working class now.

That's not to say they can call themselves working class now, but we also shouldn't disregard that they might have some experience of it.

Rashford seems like a nice guy and but tbh he donated money to some food banks/local business and did some tweets criticising the government but that was about it.The whole he is the opposition stuff was a nice bit positivity during the pandemic but it really was just the standard charity shtick from a well paid athlete.

Unless I’ve missed it I’ve haven’t seen him talk about the recent strikes, donate any money unions(Which is really the only way working class people can get true gains)or even criticise the government.

No, but most 'working class' people aren't MPs in a party which represents the working class. When you want to be elected to government, those sorts of optics matter.

Pretty much this. Just on a pure optics level is shite from her and the party.

 

[Maticmaker]

He was a very astute and skillful politician. But I just don't think people are prepared to listen to him anymore.

Yes indeed he was; however his 'big tent' concept has had its day, and after Brexit (in particular) politics in the UK is no longer solely about economics. Also the fact that it seems that nobody wants to listen to anything... other than their own echo, is a good example of how left of centre politicians in particular, not only took their eye off the ball, they forgot about the objectives of the game they were playing.

 

[Buster15]

Yes indeed he was; however his 'big tent' concept has had its day, and after Brexit (in particular) politics in the UK is no longer solely about economics. Also the fact that it seems that nobody wants to listen to anything... other than their own echo, is a good example of how left of centre politicians in particular, not only took their eye off the ball, they forgot about the objectives of the game they were playing.

That is a good point about just wanting to listen, watch or read about your own echo.
And it is now so very easy to do just that. I am sure that I do exactly that same thing.
On account of the fact that there is such a wide choice of 24 hour media. You can always find something that chimes with your own viewpoint.

And I do think that this is at least partially responsible for the increasingly binary social beliefs.

And the only political objectives nowadays seem to revolve around self interest.
Power. Not to serve society, but for self gratification and personal gain.
Too many politicians quickly forget their roots and become drunk on the power itself.
Maybe twas ever thus.

 

[nickm]

From what I know of @Sweet Square they'd be saying that whether it were a male or female MP. It's somewhat hypocritical for a Labour MP to be attending events commonly perceived as upper-class instead of supporting workers on a picket line.

If she's gone to something more working class instead, I dunno a football match, would that have been less hypocritical? Hang on, footy isn't really THAT working class anymore, so maybe the horses? Well, I guess the Queen likes horses, so the dogs maybe. Ah no, I've seen middle class people at the track, so I dunno, the darts? If she's gone to the darts, then how hypocritical would she be then? Let's find a really stereotypical working class thing she could have been doing instead in her free time instead of picketing, since that seems to be the cause of the "outrage" or maybe judging her hobbies through a class based lens is just... really vacuous. (Although I'm not surprised to see it from the Puritans on here, who one thinks secretly would have everyone shot who deviated in their class consciousness).

 

[Smores]

Finding this whole conversation very bizarre because if the argument was criticising Starmer for pretending to be working class i can guarantee which posters would be jumping in to proclaim that he had to do it for the optics. I've even seen these people use champagne socialist as a slur many times so the anger at the suggestion Rayner should avoid signs of luxury during strikes is a bit odd. Screams defensive posturing over consistent positions.

 

[neverdie]

He wants to "rebuild the center of British Politics"

the center is always a rerun of the right. less extreme rhetoric but the same consequences. see Biden and nothing substantially changing, except for the worse, in america. center is code for anti-left. he can get fecked basically unless this center is completely different all previous examples of centrisms.

 

[MUW4Eva]

opera is more often patronised by members of the middle, upper middle, and upper classes. that's a sociological fact. doesn't make it an upper class event but does explain why the association exists.

no, but MPs supposed to be representing a working class party largely made up of union support could try supporting unions.

Please could you point me towards such evidence about this fact that you seem to proclaim that it is....

 

[neverdie]

Please could you point me towards such evidence about this fact that you seem to proclaim that it is....

pm'd you.

 

[Berbaclass]

You couldn't make it up could you

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[Pexbo]

You couldn't make it up could you

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Let’s have another fecking By Election!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Domina Tryks has been made the new Deputy Chief Whip

 

[MUW4Eva]

Btw if you check the festival Rayner went to(Yes I’m actually that bored currently)the average ticket price is over £150. Rayner has a job which pays over £80,000. The fact she went to this festival is good evidence that it’s a upper class event.

And again this is all in her favour because we taking about some shite opera event instead of the fact the deputy leader of the Labour Party isn’t backing striking workers.

Rashford seems like a nice guy and but tbh he donated money to some food banks/local business and did some tweets criticising the government but that was about it.The whole he is the opposition stuff was a nice bit positivity during the pandemic but it really was just the standard charity shtick from a well paid athlete.

Unless I’ve missed it I’ve haven’t seen him talk about the recent strikes, donate any money unions(Which is really the only way working class people can get true gains)or even criticise the government.



Pretty much this. Just on a pure optics level is shite from her and the party.

Glastonbury is quite an expensive ticket, if she had gone there, would that have made a difference??

 

[Frosty]

Domina Tryks has been made the new Deputy Chief Whip

MP for Penistone & Stocksbridge

 

[Maticmaker]

Maybe twas ever thus.

True 'noblesse oblige ' (a French tradition I believe) disappeared ages ago, the First World War did for it finally and certainly the second world war took it out completely. The trouble is whilst as an idea it was awkward and a little 'to much of the touching the forelock' was involved, we never really replaced it with something that everyone could be held to account for... oh for a written constitution... but perhaps our American cousins would disagree!

 

[Jericholyte2]

Let’s have another fecking By Election!

By the time the next GE comes along in 2024 Labour will have a standing majority! At least then the Tories could have something resembling a leg to stand on when complaining about everything being Labour’s fault!

 

[Fluctuation0161]

the center is always a rerun of the right. less extreme rhetoric but the same consequences. see Biden and nothing substantially changing, except for the worse, in america. center is code for anti-left. he can get fecked basically unless this center is completely different all previous examples of centrisms.

Yep.

And then after a few years of centrism a country slips much further right. Because centrism shifts the narrative or spectrum of acceptable policies into that direction. As we've seen in France after years of Macron with Le Pen gaining alot of traction.

You could even argue it happened with Trump in the USA after Obama and the prospect of Hilary Clinton becoming president.

 

[Sweet Square]

Glastonbury is quite an expensive ticket, if she had gone there, would that have made a difference??

Hold on is Glastonbury that festival that used to cost about a £10 a ticket and is now over £200 ?
Music festival becoming unaffordable for working class people is a thing(Same with football, the average age of a United season ticket holder is 50). So yeah a Labour MP fecking off to vibe to Lizzo while not supporting striking workers would have been equally, if not more annoying.

But the of cost of consumer items isn’t my point, it’s that someone on a minimum of £84,000 a year(The average salary in the UK is under £40,000)isn’t working class. The back and forth between Rayner and Rabb was just two rich people arguing over culturally shite. One that sounds like a posh twat, the other with a northern accent.

It has nothing to do with class.

 

[Frosty]

But the of cost of consumer items isn’t my point, it’s that someone on a minimum of £84,000 a year(The average salary in the UK is under £40,000)isn’t working class. The back and forth between Rayner and Rabb was just two rich people arguing over culturally shite. One that sounds like a posh twat, the other with a northern accent.

It has nothing to do with class.

The median average salary for all workers in the UK is £25,971. The mean average salary for all workers in the UK is £31,447. The median average salary for full-time workers in the UK is £31,285. The mean average salary for full-time workers in the UK is £38,131.

https://www.avtrinity.com/uk-average-salary

Supports your point more I think if you use the median rather than the average.

 

[Sweet Square]

The median average salary for all workers in the UK is £25,971. The mean average salary for all workers in the UK is £31,447. The median average salary for full-time workers in the UK is £31,285. The mean average salary for full-time workers in the UK is £38,131.

https://www.avtrinity.com/uk-average-salary

Supports your point more I think if you use the median rather than the average.

Cheers.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Hold on is Glastonbury that festival that used to cost about a £10 a ticket and is now over £200 ?
Music festival becoming unaffordable for working class people is a thing(Same with football, the average age of a United season ticket holder is 50). So yeah a Labour MP fecking off to vibe to Lizzo while not supporting striking workers would have been equally, if not more annoying.

But the of cost of consumer items isn’t my point, it’s that someone on a minimum of £84,000 a year(The average salary in the UK is under £40,000)isn’t working class. The back and forth between Rayner and Rabb was just two rich people arguing over culturally shite. One that sounds like a posh twat, the other with a northern accent.

It has nothing to do with class.

I would say they Raynor's background is working class and she also worked heavily with trade unions before getting into party politics.

I suspect she is having to toe the line because of Starmers leadership regarding the strikes. If she doesn't, she'll be out just like the others he has purged.

 

[Sweet Square]

I suspect she is having to toe the line because of Starmers leadership regarding the strikes. If she doesn't, she'll be out just like the others he has purged.

Yeah it could well be true what but like if she can’t support potentially the biggest strikes in decades then what use is she ?

Although I should this is a problem of mass politics and Labour Parties throughout history. I’ve reading about the history of the SDP in the early 20th century and it had similar issues. The representatives of the workers become managers of a system they benefit from and thus are reluctant to change it(Same can happen to union leadership as well)

 

[Rolandofgilead]

How is the opera a posh event?? Plus where is the evidence that she was "getting pissed"??
Was she drunk?? Again where is the evidence??

Why jump to such conclusions? This is coming across as a sexist post I do have to say.

Even if she was drunk, is that illegal? Why isn't she allowed to have a drink or even a few? Are there any covid restrictions? Is it a dry state? Is she not allowed to watch a show? Or is that a big no-no but Boris can get sucked off by his mistress while at work?

I dont understand the rules anymore.

Is it fair to assume that Nadine dorries has made a complete twat of herself on multiple occasions, but she'll only get a third if the stick that Diane Abbott got fir one? (Maybe two) I wonder what the obvious difference between those two women are.

I simply do not understand.

 

[Buster15]

I would say they Raynor's background is working class and she also worked heavily with trade unions before getting into party politics.

I suspect she is having to toe the line because of Starmers leadership regarding the strikes. If she doesn't, she'll be out just like the others he has purged.

Exactly.
People use class distinctions without any precise definition of Working Class means.
My very simplistic view was that if you have to work to be able to live, you are working class.

Maybe that was correct generations ago, it is far too ambitious now.

So, what do people here define as Working Class?

 

[maniak]

So, what do people here define as Working Class?

Someone who gets home covered in oil or dust.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Someone who gets home covered in oil or dust.

An oil magnet?
Yes I know it's magnate

 

[Berbaclass]

Someone who gets home covered in oil or dust.

 

[TheGame]

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[TheGame]

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[F-Red]

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Russ in Cheshire looks like he hasn’t ventured past Junction 14 on the M6 before…

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Exactly.
People use class distinctions without any precise definition of Working Class means.
My very simplistic view was that if you have to work to be able to live, you are working class.

Maybe that was correct generations ago, it is far too ambitious now.

So, what do people here define as Working Class?

It's hard to define, but I personally feel it is anyone who has direct experience of finite resources in key areas such as food, energy, etc. in their household either while growing up or in adulthood.

 

[Pexbo]

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[esmufc07]

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Christ