We've got a Top 4 squad...

Squad doesn't matter when, in the two most important positions on the pitch, we employ some of the worst players in the league in those positions.

Onana is the most error prone keeper in the league and only Saints and maybe Leicester have worse starting strikers than Hojlund. And I'd take a 40 year old Vardy over him.
 
Lot of people are saying we dont have strong and speedy players required for EPL games hence we are easily getting overrun,.

How come we land in this situation? can't we check these things before signing players?
 
pocco said:
There’s a lot wrong with that. Garnacho has zero end product, Mainoo has been poor this season and is no longer deserving of that starting spot based on what he’s produced, Martinez constantly injured. So that’s 3 players who haven’t shown they’re good enough or fit enough to be part of a top 4 squad. On top of the 3 players you believe we need. That’s now 6 slots that I believe need therefore. I also have my doubts about Mazraoui at RB. He offers nothing going forward, so he’d have to be in to strictly defend. Every team in the top 4 has a RB that can contribute to attacking phases. So that’s potentially 7/11 positions that I’m not convinced are top 4 quality right now.
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Maz has a decent cross on him - the Mitten interview that came out prior to the final also indicated that staff behind the scenes see him as one of the most accomplished players in the build-up and helping to get forwards in positions where they can create chances. Agree about the rest though.
 
M Bison said:
Lots of comments across the forum referencing the state the squad is in, and us needing (another) overhaul. This just isnt the case in my view, we've got a strong squad and one that SHOULD be more than capable of achieving top 4.

We've got room for improvement and the squad would benefit from further investment, there's no denying that, but then again so does every squad/team in the league. The squad is talented, its a case of getting more out of it and elevating out current levels.

Hopefully Ruben can achieve that and start to get more out of the current crop as there's ability there, nothing more certain!
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You are full of crap. The midfield is not even a top half of the table midfield and our CFs are not even PL level

None of the attacking players have scored 20 goals in a season outside of Bruno

None of the midfielders are good on the ball outside of the ones with no legs anymore (Eriksen and Casemiro)

Teams with better squads

City
Liverpool
Arsenal
Chelsea
Newcastle
Villa
Spurs

After those its a debate when you get to

Brighton

We are around 8th squad wise without injuries.

How do you intend to win football games without goalscorers in the squad
 
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Bobby_2024 said:
Lot of people are saying we dont have strong and speedy players required for EPL games hence we are easily getting overrun,.

How come we land in this situation? can't we check these things before signing players?
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Blame ETH (largely) in terms of the present squad, and the Glazers at a more macro-level (given they oversaw the exec that allowed player acquisition process to become the way it did). Amorim has indicated he knows that squad needs stronger intensity.
 
We've got a Bottom 4 squad.

Or at least we will have by Sunday evening.
 
Bobby_2024 said:
Lot of people are saying we dont have strong and speedy players required for EPL games hence we are easily getting overrun,.

How come we land in this situation? can't we check these things before signing players?
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Because for years had poor recruitment and we did not take heed of the trend when teams were transitioning. Murtough is largely to blame but we also just had a summer under the new regime and signed fecking Zirkzee
 
The attack is really really poor. Hojlund struggles isn't just goals, it's hold up play, aerial duels, link up play, movement, defensive contributions, Garnacho is a kid and shouldn't be relied on, Amad tried but needs to stay fit. The midfield isn't so terrible and the center backs are decent, Onana is gash though.
We loose a lot of games by a single goal. I can't remember Another attempt on goal bar the goal from Tottenham, similar scenario happened against Chelsea. We use to win loads of games in the past were De gea made multiple elite saves and our forwards would hurt the opponent on the counter.
I think if we find a decent keeper and invest heavily in the attack say Dibo Martinez, Cunha, Gyokeres and they play to their current level the improvement in our results and league position will surprise a lot of people.
We'll atleast go back to our former post Saf level.
 
Bobby_2024 said:
Lot of people are saying we dont have strong and speedy players required for EPL games hence we are easily getting overrun,.

How come we land in this situation? can't we check these things before signing players?
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Because the recruitment has been getting poorer and poorer. It has been like this for years now.
 
That first post by M Bison seems like a long long time ago now
 
I would say that the following are top 4 quality (or better). And by "top 4 quality" I mean players who could play for a top 4 side and not look out of place or be considered an obvious weak link:

Bruno
Amad
Mazraoui
De Ligt
Maguire (redeemed!)

I'm tempted to say Yoro too, but it's a bit early.

That's it. And really, Bruno is the only one who comfortably makes the cut. You could make an argument against all the others.

So no, we do not have a top 4 squad. But we certainly shouldn't finish right above the relegation spot either!
 
Baxquux said:
Maz has a decent cross on him - the Mitten interview that came out prior to the final also indicated that staff behind the scenes see him as one of the most accomplished players in the build-up and helping to get forwards in positions where they can create chances. Agree about the rest though.
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He’s ok in the build up as he’s tidy, but in the attacking third he is below par. If the club disagree then I worry, as you only need to look around the league to see what a good attacking fullback looks like. Even last night, Dalot was far more dangerous in his brief time on the pitch.
 
Baxquux said:
This is still under-played, even as people will intermittently bring it up. You can go through the side and say that players with this degree of experience (and in certain cases , a-grade talent) shouldn't be this low, but the fact is that the side a) got to a European final and b) struggled horribly in the PL against pretty much every kind of side. And then got neutralized, by and large, in a final by another PL club. It's the ability to play at the requisite intensity as a group at PL levels specifically that Utd lack, first and foremost, followed by some technical/psychological deficits at the top-end (Hojlund's general form.

Part of the reason the side wasn't able to break Tottenham down was a tentativeness about taking more risks because of the threat on the breakaway- and that's because of issues with intensity at the core of the side(speed, being outmuscled). The side needs to be buying in 'monsters' (Ligue 1 has a few) with something to prove and decent technical ability. Likes of Bournemouth, even Tottenham themselves, whatever their other issues, have done better with this (VDV; Sarr). You need to give your creative players a platform whilst also ensuring the player you bring in are able to put the opposition on the backfoot themselves through linebreaking runs or turnovers and breaking. Then it's down to the manager to organize them, inculcate play patterns through the coaching staff etc.
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Glad there are still a few who 'get it'

More importantly, I am glad Amorim appears to understand this and will work over Summer to rectify it
 
Baxquux said:
This is still under-played, even as people will intermittently bring it up. You can go through the side and say that players with this degree of experience (and in certain cases , a-grade talent) shouldn't be this low, but the fact is that the side a) got to a European final and b) struggled horribly in the PL against pretty much every kind of side. And then got neutralized, by and large, in a final by another PL club. It's the ability to play at the requisite intensity as a group at PL levels specifically that Utd lack, first and foremost, followed by some technical/psychological deficits at the top-end (Hojlund's general form.

Part of the reason the side wasn't able to break Tottenham down was a tentativeness about taking more risks because of the threat on the breakaway- and that's because of issues with intensity at the core of the side(speed, being outmuscled). The side needs to be buying in 'monsters' (Ligue 1 has a few) with something to prove and decent technical ability. Likes of Bournemouth, even Tottenham themselves, whatever their other issues, have done better with this (VDV; Sarr). You need to give your creative players a platform whilst also ensuring the player you bring in are able to put the opposition on the backfoot themselves through linebreaking runs or turnovers and breaking. Then it's down to the manager to organize them, inculcate play patterns through the coaching staff etc.
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I don’t think there is a big distinction between Europe and the Prem. To me it's become a bit of a cliché because the real reason for the contrasting fortunes is simple luck.

Let's not forget, we drew the first three EL games, almost out of the tournament at that point. The idea we have a physical advantage in the comp wasn't mentioned then.

Against Lyon, Sociedad and Bilbao I thought we got lucky. Penalties, red cards for the opposition, once in a generation type comebacks.

It's not nice to admit but that's the primary reason we got to the final.

Against Lyon and Bilbao we got outplayed for big sections of the games.

Absolutely no idea how we did Bilbao 7-1. They were better than us for at least 90mins across the two ties.

I agree with your point about physicality being needed. I just think the same problem that's dogged us in the league was there in Europe as well. Lady luck just helped us out with it.
 
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That are at least 7/8 teams with outright better squad when it comes to starting quality and depth. Then there are a handful of clubs that have better squads relative to the style they play (like Brighton). When you factor in the quality of our squad, their strengths/weaknesses, and the style we want to play...our squad falls somewhere between 9-15.
 
Cassidy said:
You are full of crap. The midfield is not even a top half of the table midfield and our CFs are not even PL level

None of the attacking players have scored 20 goals in a season outside of Bruno

None of the midfielders are good on the ball outside of the ones with no legs anymore (Eriksen and Casemiro)

Teams with better squads

City
Liverpool
Arsenal
Chelsea
Newcastle
Villa
Spurs

After those its a debate when you get to

Brighton

We are around 8th squad wise without injuries.

How do you intend to win football games without goalscorers in the squad
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Not sure the insults are needed, just a difference of opinion.

As i said in a later post, top 4 may be ambitious, we've certainly a top 6-8 squad though in my view.
 
At very best we might have a first 11 that should be in the top half.
But we have a bottom 3 forward line and keeper.
Below that, there is very little quality.
And what does it mean anyway.
Over the 38 game league, we are where we are. And more importantly, where we deserve to be.
Unless we face up to the facts, we are just dreaming because we are way worse than Forest for example.
 
Top 4 squad in the Championship.

I'd only keep and build around, Amad, Heaven, Yoro and maybe Mainoo if he can actually get back to his best. The rest is an easy sell and reset. But we don't live in a FM save, so we probably have to keep players like Maz, Ugarte, Zirkzee, Dorgu,Licha and Bruno(if we can't get a huge sum from Saudi). So that's about 10 players I'd keep. Which is a sad statement.

Edit; I'd add Garnacho to that list, but looks like he's gone.
 
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Defence isn't bad but the forward line is he exactly where we are in the league.
 
Rozay said:
We don’t, mainly because of a lack of goals.

We have a better squad than appears though. We need a better coach though and a proper project that is going somewhere. After that, I think we only need 3 new players, a couple more if you consider depth.

I have confidence that:

Goalkeeper

Dalot/Mazraoui
Yoro
Heaven
Dorgu

Midfielder
Mainoo
Koné

Amad
Striker
Garnacho

Can challenge by 2028.

To get us to 28, and also to provide depth beyond 28:

Dalot/Mazraoui
De Ligt
Maguire
Amass/Leon

Ugarte
Casemiro (one more year for experience)
Bruno (probably one more year)

Zirkzee and Obi if he is good enough.

Can all provide cover/take up starting positions until phased out organically. We will also need to buy two new wingers. To provide cover/competition to Amad and Garnacho.

I don’t think we’re as far as is made out provided we get those signings right. The right keeper, midfielder and centre forward with that young team, with the experience of Bruno, Casa, De Ligt, Maguire, Ugarte too can get us where we need to be. But we need to start now and ditch this 352 nonsense immediately.
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I think we are as far as is made out.

Amad, Bruno and a few of our defenders would be useful players at a top 4 team. Only Bruno would be a guaranteed starter.

Then we have some young players who might improve and would be ok in a good team and with a top 4 squad around them.

Then we have a collection of players who would fit in more at a relegated team than a top 4 one, and this is arguably the largest group. Both goalkeepers, a few of the defenders, half the midfield. Hojlund based on this season

And that's before getting to the issue that we barely have any forwards never mind who are good enough, and don't have anyone really who is suited to playing wing back

...and that's before getting to the issue of having a manager who seems to make a lot of the players worse than they are and stubbornly tries to force a system and style of play that clearly doesn't suit them.

3 signings doesn't fix it. 3 very good signings and some much, much better squad management might make a difference and get us up into the top half of the table, but I think even that is a stretch given our record of making terrible signings and having terrible squad management. The pattern is we get worse every year and much as hope/optimism is good, where is the indication that this is going to change?
 
If you put yourself in the opponents dressing room at Old Trafford I can't imagine the manager gives much thought to stopping United's attack.

5 minutes on Bruno and the rest they don't need to worry about.

A premier league CB will have no fear whatsoever about facing the United frontline.

That needs to change first.
 
M Bison said:
Not sure the insults are needed, just a difference of opinion.

As i said in a later post, top 4 may be ambitious, we've certainly a top 6-8 squad though in my view.
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Which 3 clubs that I mentioned have we got a better squad than. Go through it position by position?
 
Bubz27 said:
Squad doesn't matter when, in the two most important positions on the pitch, we employ some of the worst players in the league in those positions.

Onana is the most error prone keeper in the league and only Saints and maybe Leicester have worse starting strikers than Hojlund. And I'd take a 40 year old Vardy over him.
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You forget the midfield which is bottom half quality
 
To be fair, the squad is decent.

First off, there is Amad and Garnacho terrorizing defenders on the wings. And there's still players like Antony and Rashford coming back to fight for their spots.

In forward positions, Cunha will join and Gyokeres is still a huge possibility. Hojlund is capable of scoring double digits every season, not forgetting there's Zirkzee who is decent at times. And there's Chido.

There's also a bunch of good defenders with Yoro, De Ligt, Mazr, Maguire and Martinez together with Dalot and Shaw.

In midfield, there's the experienced Casemiro with destroyer Ugarte. Mainoo almost never loses the ball in midfield and there's Bruno leading the team.
 
We certainly don't have a top 4 squad but it's not 17th place bad.
 
noodlehair said:
I think we are as far as is made out.

Amad, Bruno and a few of our defenders would be useful players at a top 4 team. Only Bruno would be a guaranteed starter.

Then we have some young players who might improve and would be ok in a good team and with a top 4 squad around them.

Then we have a collection of players who would fit in more at a relegated team than a top 4 one, and this is arguably the largest group. Both goalkeepers, a few of the defenders, half the midfield. Hojlund based on this season

And that's before getting to the issue that we barely have any forwards never mind who are good enough, and don't have anyone really who is suited to playing wing back

...and that's before getting to the issue of having a manager who seems to make a lot of the players worse than they are and stubbornly tries to force a system and style of play that clearly doesn't suit them.

3 signings doesn't fix it. 3 very good signings and some much, much better squad management might make a difference and get us up into the top half of the table, but I think even that is a stretch given our record of making terrible signings and having terrible squad management. The pattern is we get worse every year and much as hope/optimism is good, where is the indication that this is going to change?
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I think that is too far the other way. And I was also not saying that 3 signings fix it next season. I said 3 good signings and we have the nucleus of a team that can compete in 2-3 years. I don’t think including a player like Kobbie Mainoo in a potential group of title challenging players is a step too far, for example. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Leny Yoro is as good as you will find for promising young centre halves. I also don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Dalot, Mazraoui and De Ligt are all players who can play in a top 4 squad. I didn’t say the squad was ready, but from a first XI perspective, many ingredients are there - and my post has not disagreed with your assessment of Onana, Hojlund and the midfield (a midfield that becomes one better if we are allowed to include Kobbie Mainoo in it).

Of course, as I said, the manager is presently an obstacle to this blueprint, and for the reasons you stated - more players are needed because the positions he is trying to force these guys into do not suit them. For example, we currently need a capable right wing back. If we simply played a back 4, that is one player less, as we already have two very capable right backs in Dalot and Mazraoui. I have no idea why this man has been allowed to do what he is doing to the squad, and I have no idea who calibrated this all and concluded that this was the more likely, cost effective and time effective way for us to become a challenging side again - but here we are.
 
We lack the 2 most important thing in any football squad.

A proper midfield and a striker that can score goals. You can discuss about physicality and tactics all you want, but the reality is that no matter how good the tactics is, we’re not going to achieve anything when we give up the midfield every game and have nobody that is an actual goal threat.

If we control the midfield, we will create more scoring opportunities and reduce the attempts at our own goal which theoretically improves our attack and defense. Football ain’t rocket science.

It’s why I said our front office briefs more to the media than actually doing anything. It’s fecking ridiculous that our signings always come in after the season has started and there’s always the excuse of them not having a proper preseason.

feck off with that bullshit and make our signings early.
 
Rozay said:
I think that is too far the other way. And I was also not saying that 3 signings fix it next season. I said 3 good signings and we have the nucleus of a team that can compete in 2-3 years. I don’t think including a player like Kobbie Mainoo in a potential group of title challenging players is a step too far, for example. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Leny Yoro is as good as you will find for promising young centre halves. I also don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Dalot, Mazraoui and De Ligt are all players who can play in a top 4 squad. I didn’t say the squad was ready, but from a first XI perspective, many ingredients are there - and my post has not disagreed with your assessment of Onana, Hojlund and the midfield (a midfield that becomes one better if we are allowed to include Kobbie Mainoo in it).

Of course, as I said, the manager is presently an obstacle to this blueprint, and for the reasons you stated - more players are needed because the positions he is trying to force these guys into do not suit them. For example, we currently need a capable right wing back. If we simply played a back 4, that is one player less, as we already have two very capable right backs in Dalot and Mazraoui. I have no idea why this man has been allowed to do what he is doing to the squad, and I have no idea who calibrated this all and concluded that this was the more likely, cost effective and time effective way for us to become a challenging side again - but here we are.
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I don't think it is too far the other way though. We were just above the relegation places this year and there is nothing in our performances or the way we have been operating as a club to indicate that is a false position.

I think there's some bias in your assessments. Yoro for example. I agree he's a good young player, but you're watching him in a team struggling at the bottom of the league. For a top 4 team he either wouldn't play and would be loaned out, or would be a bit part player in a defence where he's surrounded by more experienced and better ones. Dalot and De Ligt wouldn't be needed by any top 4 side. Mazrouri would maybe be a stand in due to his versatility. None of those look too good to be in this United team and the team deservedly finished 16th.

Bruno and Amad are the only ones at any point this season for me who have stood out as better than the situation we are in. Maguire, at times.

You also have to assess the reality of the situation which is that Amorim will be manager next season and we will mostly have the same players, mostly being mismanaged in the same way. We will have the same fumbling, cost cutting and negativity spreading ownership. We'll probably lose Garnacho who is one that almost certainly can perform better and improve if managed correctly. We might sign a few Amorim players but I really don't know if that's actually a good thing based on what we see every week.

I don't like to sound so negative but it isn't so much about how many signings. There has to be a turning point for things to improve, and where is it?
 
Cassidy said:
Which 3 clubs that I mentioned have we got a better squad than. Go through it position by position?
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I said i think we're a 6-8th squad in my follow up post. Of those listed, i'd say we have a better squad than Spurs and we're certainly stronger than Forrest who have been in and around top 6 most of the season. The issue for me is the under-performance of so many of our players this year, i'm so surprised to see the levels of players who have previously operated at a much higher level, and for me our squad is far stronger on paper than is being shown.
 
M Bison said:
I said i think we're a 6-8th squad in my follow up post. Of those listed, i'd say we have a better squad than Spurs and we're certainly stronger than Forrest who have been in and around top 6 most of the season. The issue for me is the under-performance of so many of our players this year, i'm so surprised to see the levels of players who have previously operated at a much higher level, and for me our squad is far stronger on paper than is being shown.
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I did not mention Forrest. I mentioned 8 clubs. Spurs was one. So go ahead and let me know in what positions you think our squad is stronger than Spurs

Before you start a hint. GK, CF, midfield and CB are off the table.
 
In fairness, the OP did not define the league.

If the championship, we definitely have a top 4 squad.
 
Scandi Red said:
I would say that the following are top 4 quality (or better). And by "top 4 quality" I mean players who could play for a top 4 side and not look out of place or be considered an obvious weak link:

Bruno
Amad
Mazraoui
De Ligt
Maguire (redeemed!)

I'm tempted to say Yoro too, but it's a bit early.

That's it. And really, Bruno is the only one who comfortably makes the cut. You could make an argument against all the others.

So no, we do not have a top 4 squad. But we certainly shouldn't finish right above the relegation spot either!
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You are talking about a top 4 starting 11 here, are you? Players like Dalot, Ugarte, Mount, obviously Casemiro, also Garnacho and Zirkzee could easily be part of a top 4 team's squad, along with the other players you mentioned. You'd just not necessarily have to rely on all of them together as starters or as the first 14-15 players.
 
Cassidy said:
I did not mention Forrest. I mentioned 8 clubs. Spurs was one. So go ahead and let me know in what positions you think our squad is stronger than Spurs

Before you start a hint. GK, CF, midfield and CB are off the table.
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I know you didnt mention Forrest but if they're good enough to achieve top 8 then we are.

Based on current form i can see where you're coming from, my view is based on where our players have been and where i think they should be. I havent included Hojlund in my list, but last season i thought he was on track to progress to a good level, although this year of course has been terrible.

Obviously just my opinion but the following i think would be in the Spurs team:

Maxraoui
Yoro
Shaw
De Ligt
Martinez

Mainoo
Casemiro
Bruno

Garnacho
Amad
 
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