What’s the dilemma with Donny’s playing time & Ole?

[FahadiHossein]

I'm just baffled by this Donny situation, because whatever explanation someone gives, it just raises yet another question.
Why was Donny even signed in the first place, if he isn't an upgrade or his best position is undecided?

If Solskjaer doesn't think Donny is good enough, why hasn't he been sold, considering the policy of "Sell to Buy"?
If Solskjaer does rate him, but doesn't feel he is ready yet, then why block him from going out on loan to another PL club, where he would be a starter?
If Solskjaer is concerned about squad depth, what's the point of retaining a player for the squad, that he rarely uses, or isn't good enough, or doesn't know how to utilise?

The other thing is, Donny must have been assured of more game time by Solskjaer, so why would Solskjaer do that, knowing that he would be continually overlooking him again this season...?
It just feels like a strange kind of limbo....

I have a feeling he was bought because Pogba was leaving. However, Pogba ended up not leaving.
And with the pandemic, I think teams were offering him half the price that United bought him for, say 10 to 20 million, and United thought that it would be better to try him out for one more season since no one would offer a good price.

What United needs is a team like West Ham to loan him with no obligations to buy and attempt to play him back to form, and then return him to United.

 

[NewGlory]

He’s getting about as much time as I would expect United’s 20th or 21st most important outfielder to get. It’s not that hard to work out.

Donny would get more playing time if he had worked a bit harder in defence and not been at fault for West Ham’s goal that saw us exist from the Carabao.

What the FECK are you talking about. DvB was named MOTM for that match, including on Redcafe (https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-west-ham-united.465640/). As for the goal, it is way more on Telles than on DvB

 

[Ikon]

What United needs is a team like West Ham to loan him with no obligations to buy and attempt to play him back to form, and then return him to United.

Apparently we had loan offers from other PL clubs, Everton being one of them, but the player was told he had a big part to play at OT this season, and the loans were rejected by United.

Also, if we signed him to replace Pogba, then why wasn't he played when Pogba was absent at the beginning of last season?

As I said, whatever explanation is put forward, there seems to be a question attached which dispells the explanation.

Someone else said "its because he is shite"...
Well he wasn't shite for Ajax or Holland, but if he isn't good enough for United, then why retain him, when he could have been moved on?

 

[NewGlory]

I have a feeling he was bought because Pogba was leaving. However, Pogba ended up not leaving.
And with the pandemic, I think teams were offering him half the price that United bought him for, say 10 to 20 million, and United thought that it would be better to try him out for one more season since no one would offer a good price.

What United needs is a team like West Ham to loan him with no obligations to buy and attempt to play him back to form, and then return him to United.

What form? DvB was started twice: in pre-season (was great) and in Carabao Cup match against West Ham (was Man of The Match). There is no issue with DvB's form, especially when your alternative is fecking Fred

 

[FerociousCorgis]

idk i thought last time he played deeper centrally he looked pretty decent. He kept it simple but played good passes forward. Would i trust him alone in a DM role with no support-no. Do i think that he could offer pretty much exactly what mctominay did last night defensively but actually get on the ball and play it forward-yes. Can see why he is so pissed, we always question those who seem content on staying here and not fighting to move on to get game time elsewhere, yet it seemed like donny did want to go somewhere and get actual playing time. Def feel for him. Im not saying he is going to be the world class DM that completes our set up, but holy hell let's at least give him an actual shot when the other options are so poor.

 

[djembatheking]

He is improving week on week by sitting on the bench in many fans eyes. Will be a hell of a player by the end of the season if he doesn`t play.

 

[golden_blunder]

The lad can only find form if he’s given game time to do so and get used to playing with his team mates. The biggest obstacle is Oles self-confessed love for the double pivot of mcFred whilst trying to shoe-horn Pogba in.
For the sake of VdB I’d sell, take the money and reinvest

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

The lad can only find form if he’s given game time to do so and get used to playing with his team mates. The biggest obstacle is Oles self-confessed love for the double pivot of mcFred whilst trying to show-horn Pogba in.
For the sake of VdB I’d sell, take the money and reinvest

I find it impossible to see how anybody could view the situation any differently to this.

 

[TMDaines]

What the FECK are you talking about. DvB was named MOTM for that match, including on Redcafe (https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-west-ham-united.465640/). As for the goal, it is way more on Telles than on DvB

As much as even I voted for him to be MotM, he still didn't do enough to make me want to see ever over Bruno, Pogba or as a lone holding midfielder. Neither was it enough to move up the pecking order.. Fred, McT and Matic all have more obvious roles for me and more credit in the bank. If we play 4-3-3/4-1-4-1, I'd want to see Bruno, Pogba and Matic. If we play 4-2-3-1, I'd rather have Pogba in the pivot and I'm not gonna play Donny alongside him.

 

[TMDaines]

I find it impossible to see how anybody could view the situation any differently to this.

Because Manchester United comes first, not Donny Van de Beek? If he wants to leave, he can go when we get a suitable offer. Nobody approached us with anything greater than a derisory offer in the summer.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Apparently we had loan offers from other PL clubs, Everton being one of them, but the player was told he had a big part to play at OT this season, and the loans were rejected by United.

If this is true (has been reported all over the place, but how credible are the sources?) - it's pretty interesting. The obvious question would be: how would FSW use him?

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Because Manchester United comes first, not Donny Van de Beek? If he wants to leave, he can go when we get a suitable offer. Nobody approached us with anything greater than a derisory offer in the summer.

The person I was replying to didn't make any suggestion that VdB should be prioritised over what's right for the club. They said that it's clear Ole has his prefered midfield and VdB won't get the games so should move on.

I've no idea why you're attempting to make an issue of that.

 

[Flytan]

Sensing something similar to moyes and zaha going on with dvb and our manager

Edit: not the rumors part, just something personal

 

[Gandalf]

If this is true (has been reported all over the place, but how credible are the sources?) - it's pretty interesting. The obvious question would be: how would FSW use him?

The Everton offer is true but the detail is that they were skint so were not offering any kind of loan fee and only made their move on deadline day which would have effectively meant us losing cover in midfield with no cash or time to find a replacement. I understand us turning that down as Fred or Scott could break a leg tomorrow and then we would be fecked for cover. Now that Everton have managed to offload James and his mega wages Rafa is saying he will have cash to spend in January so it will be interesting to see if they come in with a serious offer. If they do I would hope we take it and either recall Garner if that is an option or start mixing Hannibal into the senior squad.

 

[NewGlory]

If this is true (has been reported all over the place, but how credible are the sources?) - it's pretty interesting. The obvious question would be: how would FSW use him?

According to The Atletic, based on DvB agent interview, it wasn't a loan, Everton was ready to pay real money to buy him and they were blocked:

"Albers also confirmed talks were held with senior figures at Everton, only for United to block a move away from Old Trafford on the night before deadline day.

He added: “We had conversations with Solskjaer and the board. We took the initiative to find a club and our search ended up at Everton. We opened talks with Marcel Brands and Farhad Moshiri.

“On Monday night (prior to deadline day) we received a call from Solskjaer and the club who told us that a transfer was out of the question and that he had to report himself to training the next morning.”

https://theathletic.com/news/van-de...says-ronaldo-arrival-is-bad-news/KnsGPVbEU0V4

If there's no way you are going to play DvB, why the hell are you blocking him from a move. Having Fred, Matic, and McT in front of DvB means - he never needs him. Never.

 

[FahadiHossein]

What form? DvB was started twice: in pre-season (was great) and in Carabao Cup match against West Ham (was Man of The Match). There is no issue with DvB's form, especially when your alternative is fecking Fred

Perhaps the word 'form' isn't the best to be used here, but he needs to play so that United can notice him that he is good. This is what Lingard got, because West Ham and England used him and he played well. Lingard would still have been dropped if he hadn't played well coming on a super-sub. The thing is that the people who are playing in his position are playing, or having an impact much bigger than him when he plays. You either drop Pogba, Bruno or Sancho to put him in the squad. And he's not a direct replacement for Fred. Fred sits in front of the center backs and does not venture up, and goes and chases down attackers. So far, vdB has not shown to be as defensive-minded as Matic or Fred, so even when Fred plays like crap, Matic and McTominay are the alternatives.

 

[TMDaines]

The person I was replying to didn't make any suggestion that VdB should be prioritised over what's right for the club. They said that it's clear Ole has his prefered midfield and VdB won't get the games so should move on.

I've no idea why you're attempting to make an issue of that.

Because a player - when he signs a contract with a club and becomes an asset with value - doesn't just get to decide to move on. He need someone to actually be willing to pay a lot of money for him. Nobody did that in the summer. It will be unlikely to happen in January too.

People talk about Everton wanting him on loan this summer. Is this the same Everton who are operating on a shoestring? You think Everton were going to be able to offer a financially enticing package for United to allow VDB to leave?

 

[peridigm]

Sensing something similar to moyes and zaha going on with dvb and our manager

Edit: not the rumors part, just something personal

I don't think either one are the type to be petty. Donny's status will be clearer once Pogba's status is sorted. Doesn't make sense but it's my opinion.

 

[FahadiHossein]

According to The Atletic, based on DvB agent interview, it wasn't a loan, Everton was ready to pay real money to buy him and they were blocked:



https://theathletic.com/news/van-de...says-ronaldo-arrival-is-bad-news/KnsGPVbEU0V4

If there's no way you are going to play DvB, why the hell are you blocking him from a move. Having Fred, Matic, and McT in front of DvB means - he never needs him. Never.

Are they offering good money? Didn't Everton try lowballing United for Sergio Romero and this was why United decided not to sell to them?

 

[90 + 5min]

Maybe Solskjaer is wrong to not give him more chances but can anyone actually say when he have done anything when playing? He have been hiding from ball, running all over place and not given Solskjaer evidence to start him in games. It can ofcourse be something with confidence but right now, he isn't near starting place. He will be given time to prove his worth but he must step up when he is given chance.

 

[TMDaines]

Are they offering good money? Didn't Everton try lowballing United for Sergio Romero and this was why United decided not to sell to them?

They spent £1.7m this summer and people believe they were offering a good deal for Donny...

 

[NewGlory]

Are they offering good money? Didn't Everton try lowballing United for Sergio Romero and this was why United decided not to sell to them?

According to the article, United was against even hearing what the number would be. Also, honestly - if you are going to sit a player on bench all season and NEVER play him - what is the price of such player? Really?

 

[TMDaines]

According to the article, United was against even hearing what the number would be. Also, honestly - if you are going to sit a player on bench all season and NEVER play him - what is the price of such player? Really?

He’s started two of our last five matches.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Maybe Solskjaer is wrong to not give him more chances but can anyone actually say when he have done anything when playing?

Not really.

It's more a case of Fred and McTominay being generally somewhat underwhelming - so why not try something/someone else.

Which is fair enough - in one sense: they are somewhat underwhelming.

But whether Donny's actually a better alternative is another question altogether.

I've said before that he has traits that could make him a decent option - but it's hardly a question of Ole horribly mismanaging his options. Some people seem to think we have Verratti on the bench and that Ole, for unknown reasons, simply refuses to play him.

 

[FahadiHossein]

According to the article, United was against even hearing what the number would be. Also, honestly - if you are going to sit a player on bench all season and NEVER play him - what is the price of such player? Really?

United is going to lose money like what we did with Kagawa, Sanchez, di Maria. This is not good business sense. If United continues to do so, other clubs will continue to pry the club for "one season buys", and the club will continue to sell players that have failed to impress after one season at a discount. United has already been doing so. Also, the club cannot continue to set the precedent of selling players for cut-price after one season.
If we give the players another season to try and then we sell at a cut-price, then I understand the decision since 2 seasons are usually enough for a player to prove his worth. We also did that Veron, and we gave him two full seasons at least.
There are also other successful examples like Evra, Felliani, Vidic who played well after a bad first season.
It is a gamble that we take with vdB, and I don't believe that the club should continue the bad practices set during the LvG and Mourinho era of offloaidng players after one season at cut-price. His value may fall, or he may show his potential, but one season is too soon.

 

[alexthelion]

He's the one saying he can play those roles, literally, he's pimping himself out to play as the number 6. Which is baffling from what I've ever seen of him really.

He did play as a #6 for Ajax a few times.

 

[Lebowski]

Good post. It's quite evident at this stage that Ole is probably not the man to take us to where we want to be but slating him for not playing Van de Beek regularly, while having no knowledge whatsoever of what is happening behind the scenes, is a bit weird.

There's a weird habit with some of our fans to fixate on a certain player who the manager isn't currently playing and start a bandwagon in favour of that player and against the manager.

We had it in those weird 'Martial FC' days and I even remember that Mark Goldbridge guy leading a bandwagon against Ole (and possibly also Mourinho?) for not recognising the genius of Andreas Pereira. Whenever the team starts performing badly, the fans turn whichever player isn't being selected regularly into the modern embodiment of Cruyff and conclude that the manager must be an idiot for not having the good sense to play him. The symptoms of this delusion usually also include hugely overrating the few minutes or odd cameos that the player is given (West Ham), and being absolutely unwavering in your belief that the player should be starting week in week out, even if the person who sees him in training every day and sets the team up tactically happens to disagree. The delusion is usually only broken when either the team starts playing well again, or the player in question is selected and repeatedly performs poorly. Then they immediately become clearly never good enough anyway and the next time the manager is under fire, he becomes an idiot for not selling the player because it's clear he's been crap for ages.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Because a player - when he signs a contract with a club and becomes an asset with value - doesn't just get to decide to move on. He need someone to actually be willing to pay a lot of money for him. Nobody did that in the summer. It will be unlikely to happen in January too.

People talk about Everton wanting him on loan this summer. Is this the same Everton who are operating on a shoestring? You think Everton were going to be able to offer a financially enticing package for United to allow VDB to leave?

You think the way to protect the asset's value is never playing him? VdB is worth a fraction now of what United paid, that's on the club. Either they over paid to buy him or they're just allowing his value to decline.

If DvB decides to cause a stink he'll be out in Jan.

 

[Maticmaker]

Confidence is everything in particular for new young players arriving at a club like United.

Forwards are usually able to play most forward roles and they are usually young enough (if not developed through our on academy) when they arrive e.g. Sancho, so they can be given regular run outs to 'mix and match' and develop their confidence over time. For midfield and defence positions its different, if they are not progressed through the academy then players are usually well established elsewhere and grounded in their role, when they arrive at OT. Although usually some 'tweaking' is required.

Donny is ostensibly a 'pass and move' player (in the Mata role) but we don't play that way, so he (and Mata) don't get many outings usually in makeshift teams. Donny is not a natural DM, but maybe that is where he might be groomed for, but he needs to bulk up a bit and to learn his trade craft (I would say understudying Matic); whichever way, its going to take longer and for Ole its now a case of choosing the outings he can give Donny, that will not overwhelm him, but give him a chance to play himself in as and when, gaining his own, as well as his managers, confidence.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I think we'll loan VdB in january and if Ole still here we'll sell him next summer. What a waste, he's definitiely more valuable that what we made him, I dont understand why Ole didnt let him go if he wasnt going to trust him at all.

 

[roseguy64]

He's literally wasted two years of his most important time for development after promising him minutes.

Not hyperbole.

Okay, you know best.

 

[TMDaines]

You think the way to protect the asset's value is never playing him? VdB is worth a fraction now of what United paid, that's on the club. Either they over paid to buy him or they're just allowing his value to decline.

If DvB decides to cause a stink he'll be out in Jan.

You are creating a straw man argument here. I think it is pretty self-evident that if United had their time again, they wouldn’t have signed him. There’s nothing United can do about that now. He’s obviously going to have fallen in value.

That doesn’t mean the club should now let him go for little more than a free transfer. He’s still worth more to United as a squad player than what any other club was willing to pay for him in the summer.

Everton is a complete red herring. It’s no secret they were operating on a strict budget this summer.

 

[roseguy64]

If Ole based his decisions on what the fans think then he isn't suited to be a Manchester United manager.
Again, if your first choice midfield is going to be McFred almost every match, and you can't hardly find a place for Pogba in your midfield, then buying a 40 million replacement for Pogba is stupid management of money.

Once you find that Pogba is going to stay this summer, United should've sell him and bought in a more suitable player that would play than keeping him here. Personally I don't think I've seen enough of him to consider him good/not good enough for United. All I wanted is to see him given a chance at our weakest position, the central midfield. What's frustrating is that Ole does not want to rotate/try other central midfield lineup other than McFred/sometimes Matic.

McTominay and Fred wasn't the midfield partnership when Donny was bought. They were on the bench.

 

[Doracle]

How many matches have we actually lost with McFred starting in the last year or so? I think we’ve lost 4 of our last 38 league games and they’ve played two of those.

 

[frostbite]

How many matches have we actually lost with McFred starting in the last year or so? I think we’ve lost 4 of our last 38 league games and they’ve played two of those.

Actually, when we play both of them, our win percentage is 62%, with 2.00 goals per game for and 0.93 against. When we don't play either of them, our win percentage drops to 52% with goals for 1.73 and against 1.15.

So, our best bet right now is the McFred in midfield.

Also, when we don't play McFred it is usually vs weaker teams. And yet, we lose more! So the replacements are obviously worse. For example, DVB was responsible for leaving the scorer with West Ham, but actually that was the West Ham B-team. If he can't win us games vs B-teams, why should he start against harder opponents?

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

We are wasting his career. Please move him in January. He does not fit into our non-existent system.

 

[NewGlory]

He’s started two of our last five matches.

Pre-season and Carabao Cup ones. Come on, now

 

[TMDaines]

Pre-season and Carabao Cup ones. Come on, now

Young Boys ring a bell?

 

[BlueHaze]

When we signed him I don't think a single person predicted this was going to happen. Everyone was buzzing, we had just signed a pivotal part of Ajax team he was definitely top 3 players there. I don't know why Ole wanted him in the first place when it's clear he doesn't even want to give the guy a proper chance. Kinda ruined his career in a way because he is completely shot on confidence and even if he moves on there's a chance he will never regain his Ajax form.

 

[Devil may care]

The lad can only find form if he’s given game time to do so and get used to playing with his team mates. The biggest obstacle is Oles self-confessed love for the double pivot of mcFred whilst trying to shoe-horn Pogba in.
For the sake of VdB I’d sell, take the money and reinvest

Exactly, people can argue over whether he's good enough or not but without a proper run of games we'll never really know, and at this poin that's clearly never going to happen so might as well let him go.