What actually is a top club?

[stefan92]

Inspired by the thread about biggest clubs, which also includes history.

But what if you look just at the current situation, what does make a top club, and therefore which are the current top clubs?

 

[the_cliff]

United
Liverpool
Real Madrid
Barcelona
AC Milan
Juventus
Bayern

Those would be the biggest clubs in the world (in no order), a mix of history, size, fanbase, domestic and international success. I think all of those factors would contribute.

Second tier would include Chelsea, Dortmund, Arsenal, Atletico, Napoli, Ajax etc.. that may have some of those factors but not all of them.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Money.

 

[68cob]

If you take away the history of a currently successful club, then you may just have a flash in the pan, such as Leicester if current was just a few years ago.

 

[justsomebloke]

United
Liverpool
Real Madrid
Barcelona
AC Milan
Juventus
Bayern

Those would be the biggest clubs in the world (in no order), a mix of history, size, fanbase, domestic and international success. I think all of those factors would contribute.

Second tier would include Chelsea, Dortmund, Arsenal, Atletico, Napoli, Ajax etc.. that may have some of those factors but not all of them.

City not even second tier?

I don't agree you can really put history in there, at least not in the sense of it being exclusive, and also not in the sense of putting you in that bracket even if you're not really competitive today and haven't been for a good while. I think you do have to put in financial muscle. Also, the level of domestic competition (ie, League quality). The simplest measure is really a club's ability to attract top players.

I don't think AC Milan ranks as a "top club" these days, and that City and Chelsea does. Obviously also PSG.

I'd say first tier is Bayern, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real, PSG and maybe Juventus

Second tier, Dortmund, Arsenal, Spurs, Atletico, Inter, AC Milan, Napoli

 

[golden_blunder]

The bigger question is why fans are obsessed with the perceived size of clubs

 

[Rojofiam]

United
Liverpool
Real Madrid
Barcelona
AC Milan
Juventus
Bayern

Those would be the biggest clubs in the world (in no order), a mix of history, size, fanbase, domestic and international success. I think all of those factors would contribute.

Second tier would include Chelsea, Dortmund, Arsenal, Atletico, Napoli, Ajax etc.. that may have some of those factors but not all of them.

Yes, these 7 definitely ahead of everyone else. I'd probably put Inter and Arsenal there just slightly below them, with Chelsea potentially creeping in as well due to their last ~20 years of success.

 

[the_cliff]

City not even second tier?

I don't agree you can really put history in there, at least not in the sense of it being exclusive, and also not in the sense of putting you in that bracket even if you're not really competitive today and haven't been for a good while. I think you do have to put in financial muscle. Also, the level of domestic competition (ie, League quality). The simplest measure is really a club's ability to attract top players.

I don't think AC Milan ranks as a "top club" these days, and that City and Chelsea does. Obviously also PSG.

I'd say first tier is Bayern, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real, PSG and maybe Juventus

Second tier, Dortmund, Arsenal, Spurs, Atletico, Inter, AC Milan, Napoli

Yeah they'd be in the second tier. I hear what you're saying but I can't consider City a top team until they can at least fill their stadium. I disagree with AC Milan they are definitely in the first tier they won the Serie A last season and are on the way back, there's no way Chelsea/PSG should be there and not Milan, In Latin America for example Milan is definitely more watched and supported than Chelsea. Again it's not just about financial muscle, it is a mixture of many things. If it's just about Financial Muscle we'd have to put Newcastle as number one.

 

[justsomebloke]

The bigger question is why fans are obsessed with the perceived size of clubs

Of course they are - that's central to the definition of success in football. There's probably no other major team sport where the most fundamental factor in defining a player's career success isn't how many titles he's won or individual milestones he reached, but how big a club he played for. No matter how many goals you knocked in for Wolves or Brighton in the course of your career, it matters less than having been an important player for a big club for a long time.

 

[justsomebloke]

Yeah they'd be in the second tier. I hear what you're saying but I can't consider City a top team until they can at least fill their stadium. I disagree with AC Milan they are definitely in the first tier they won the Serie A last season and are on the way back, there's no way Chelsea/PSG should be there and not Milan, In Latin America for example Milan is definitely more watched and supported than Chelsea. Again it's not just about financial muscle, it is a mixture of many things. If it's just about Financial Muscle we'd have to put Newcastle as number one.

A definition of "top club" that puts AC Milan in the top tier and City and PSG in the second is essentially absurd, in my view. AC Milan may have more fans globally and a more illustrious history, but those are residual factors that matter jack shit compared to the fundamental advantages City and PSG have. For pretty much all the things that matter to actual results today and the years ahead, Milan simply isn't a top european club - maybe not a second tier one either.

And who said it's "just about financial muscle". I pointed out that it needed to be part of any reasonable definition of "top club", and it wasn't in yours.

 

[J2J]

“Top club” is very subjective, like when people try to define what makes a player world class. However, to try and quantify this a bit you could look at Champions League performances, as you could argue that without a consistent Champions League presence, no team deserves to be called a “top club”.

Teams that have reached the Semis of the CL at least x2 in the last 20 years:

Barca, Real, Atletico, United, Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Bayern, Juve, Milan, Inter, Lyon, PSG, Monaco

Teams that have reached the Quarters of the CL at least x2 in the last 20 years:

All the above plus, Porto, Benfica, Ajax, Roma, Dortmund, Schalke, Spurs, Valencia.

For more recency bias you could change 20 years to 10 years which would give you:

SF: Barca, Real, Atletico, Chelsea, Pool, City, Bayern, Juve, PSG.

QF: All the above plus, United, Dortmund, Monaco, Porto, Benfica.

 

[giorno]

Money, fame, global fanbase, current and recent success, in terms of trophies and CL participation

 

[Trezeguet17]

A definition of "top club" that puts AC Milan in the top tier and City and PSG in the second is essentially absurd, in my view. AC Milan may have more fans globally and a more illustrious history, but those are residual factors that matter jack shit compared to the fundamental advantages City and PSG have. For pretty much all the things that matter to actual results today and the years ahead, Milan simply isn't a top european club - maybe not a second tier one either.

And who said it's "just about financial muscle". I pointed out that it needed to be part of any reasonable definition of "top club", and it wasn't in yours.

I get your point and you are technically correct with that statement as the question in the OP is about the current top clubs.
It still feels wrong to put City/PSG ahead of Milan and if the question would be about the biggest clubs of all time thankfully these oil clubs would not even be in the conversation for the top 10

 

[USREDEVIL]

Next thread:

What is a Top Red?

 

[appleman]

Next thread:

What is a Top Red?

you mean like in flags?

 

[PizzaPlanet]

Emphasizing the current state of affairs, and the last several years rather than the last couple of months, we are a big club in terms of history and support, but not a top club.

A top club should attract the best young talents in the world.

A top club should be expected to win a fair amount of matches comfortably, with no more than a moderate effort, and being able to field academy graduates more often than not.

A top club can't be and shouldn't play like the underdog in most CL knock out matches, and play in the Europa league every other season.

A top club shouldn't leave it's supporters and fans traumatized, dreading to watch live matches.

A top club can't have unambitious reactionary money grabbing owners, investing the minimum amount possible needed not to have a fan revolt.