What am I not seeing in regards to McFred defensively?

tomaldinho1

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Think of how he likes to play and then ask yourself who is better? Maybe he tried and gave up on a switch to 433 as rumoured and that’s why VdB doesn’t play and Pogba seems best when not in CM. Either way, they are best option for our system (whatever you think of the system).
 

dal

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I think we will see the best of them from October, they seem to both be lacking sharpness.
 

SER19

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It's disappointing but they're our best combined 2 to play there. Its that simple
 

lostcauz

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If what you are saying about Pogba is true, then it raises an interesting question: why are we working so hard to resign him, if his only viable position is on the left, a position in which we are already well-stocked (Rashford, Martial, Sancho)?
It’s crazy when you think that if he signs a new deal with us, he will probably be on £300-350k and doesn’t have a guaranteed starting place, he could find himself being rotated with Rashford in the next couple of months.
I’d trust Mctominay next to a new DM more than Pogba.
 

jem

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I doubt Ole does trust Fred, it's just that Matic is near-useless at preventing counter-attacks due to his complete lack of mobility.

Again, this goes back to what I keep saying about building a team. United are cash-rich, but we're still a business. We can only spend what we earn. Therefore, we have to address positions one at a time, and the manager has to prioritise. Also, the manager has to squeeze something useful out of generally limited players, until they can be replaced. Every time we make a bad transfer, it set's us back at two-fold, because we then have to get rid of the problem player before we can realistically try again.

This is not an issue if you are Chelsea or City (more City really, but it's also how Chelsea became relevant again from 2005). They can just keep burning through cash and players until they hit a winning formula. When they eventually do get to the point where the squad is in good shape, they can steady the spending down and add one of two quality players a year in key positions.
But if that's true (about United needing to frugal with their money,) is there anyway they can justify trying to give Pogba a new contract, one that would be on very high wages and have the added poison pill of dealing with Raiola? It would seem the only way to justify that contract would be to then spend big on a surefire, Kante-style, midfielder who would allow Pogba to thrive in his new position.
 

jem

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because he runs like feck. His passing isn’t improving though, if anything it’s getting worse

Ah Pogba. Absolute match winner on his day….invisible on off-days….can’t place him in a team….can’t build a team around him. Would we be better off with a word class DM? Yes. Do I still want to see Pogba strolling around, pinging outside of the foot passes around nonchalantly….also yes
It's quite the conundrum.
 

jem

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Well the easy answer is the standard "to protect his value" and not lose him on a free but I also do imagine that we still harbor ambitions to sign a dominant partner for him like Kante at the national level who is good enough to cover for his weaknesses. Paul does not work alongside any of our current options because none of them has the quality and/or physical attributes to support him, Matic was signed specifically for that reason by Jose but has unfortunately regressed physically. I am not going to get into the scouting aspects but presumably the plan is to sign someone like Rice next summer and then a pivot of Rice/Pogba or even a 4-3-3 with Rice behind Pogba/Bruno becomes possible.
That would be amazing. I do worry that West Ham would price us out of it, and Chelsea would step in. I also get the sense that Ole still has his sights set on signing Haaland, which if successful, would almost certain not spending big on another player next summer.
 

Hughie77

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This team has to get another CM who can do a bit of both tackle back, defend and move the ball to forward areas, Pogba can do it, but his best position is on the left of a 3. Fred Mctom are the only ones we got who I think who can do the best job in there. If there any cash for players in Jan, I'd try for Bassouma I think his name is from Brighton, reminds me a bit of Kante type of player.
 

He'sRaldo

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Due to our lacklustre defensive organization and top heavy formation, our CMs main duty is to run around plugging holes; which Fred and McTominay are best at.

In a more balanced and organized setup, we wouldn't need to go to such extremes with the player profile in CM, and players with a nice balance of playmaking and defensive ability would be able to function. But as of right now, we work better with CM's who excel at running round putting out fires while constantly outnumbered.
 

Kramer

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Ole’s blueprint seems to be clear-ish.

He will always play a 4-2-3-1.

In games against the lesser teams, where we are expected to dominate, he will play Pogba deeper alongside Fred/McT/Matic and play 3 out anout forwards.

In games against top teams / dangerous teams, he will start Fred-Tominay in midfield for additional cover and closing down gaps as we will not have the ball too much. And that’s kind of where Fred-Tominay shine as well. They are better at harrowing opposition midfields than any of our other midfielders and have better stamina. In these games, he tends to start Pogba on the left to get an additional grip on the midfield situation.

Now the problem is any game in which we are expected to dominate midfield - like the one against West Ham (borderline top/dangerous club) or have more of the possession in will always end up infuriating us because Fred and to a lesser extent McTominay have nowhere near the quality you expect a United midfield to have. And there will be plenty of such games.

I feel Wan-Bissaka is also kind of in the same boat. Against the top teams where his primary job is to defend - he absolutely shines. But against the lesser teams, when he is required to be more actively involved in moving the ball around and breaking down the opposition, he will be found out on multiple occasions.

I do see long term hope for Mct and Wan Bissaka as very good squad players in a title winning team. Sadly, Fred seems to have too many mistakes in him.
 

jackal&hyde

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It's infuriating how Ole is keeping prime Keane and Kante on the bench to play these two.
 

Lentwood

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But if that's true (about United needing to frugal with their money,) is there anyway they can justify trying to give Pogba a new contract, one that would be on very high wages and have the added poison pill of dealing with Raiola? It would seem the only way to justify that contract would be to then spend big on a surefire, Kante-style, midfielder who would allow Pogba to thrive in his new position.
It's not that we need to be frugal, it's just that a player like Rice or Bellingham would likely cost almost £100m.

I think Pogba is really good in the AML position, which then causes us another slight issue because we have Rashford and Sancho out there!
 

MvG

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Honestly, I dont get it what they do defensively that Ole seems to think we need them to play?

Fred to me is really bad in 50/50s now, I dont trust him at all. Scott I find is also positionally awful, he is never where the danger is. I asked myself, how many times have I seen either of these guys stopping an attack?

Its not like they are great passers that we can forgive them being bad defensively. Id bet someone like Jorginho has more interceptions than Scott for example.
Seriously harsh on McTominay as he is not nearly as limited a player as Fred is. While both are poor positionally, McT’s passing has progressed significantly over the past couple of seasons and he is quite useful in possession.

But yeah I think we should be playing Pogba or DvB in midfield in most matches rather than Fred at this point. Especially considering the options we have on the left wing.
 

Nevilles.Wear.Prada

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But what I don't get is why he trusts Fred. The guy is a walking mistake, and other teams are certainly aware of it (as Deeney pointed out a while back.)
Lack of options.
Also, Lack of tactical know hows about how to mitigate glaring weakness and maximize available talent.
For example, i believe drilling him deeper and ask him to play really short passes to maintain possession until flank players become available. He still takes shots and do ranged passes despite misplacing 10 yards passes, like 10 times a game. This is mostly on ole. Good managers weed those out. Or at least instruct propery.
 

Nickelodeon

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Honestly, I dont get it what they do defensively that Ole seems to think we need them to play?

Fred to me is really bad in 50/50s now, I dont trust him at all. Scott I find is also positionally awful, he is never where the danger is. I asked myself, how many times have I seen either of these guys stopping an attack?

Its not like they are great passers that we can forgive them being bad defensively. Id bet someone like Jorginho has more interceptions than Scott for example.
This was my exact thought during the West Ham game. While we have limited expectations from Fred from a creativity perspective, but even from a ball-winning aspect, he isn't as good as many would like to believe. Contrast Fred with the intercepting and ball winning capabilities of Fernandinho, Fabinho, Rodri, Ndidi, Kante, Bissouma and its not even close to the level we should be having.

The gulf in quality in the DM position as glaring as having Pukki as our main striker.
 

United in sin

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Seriously harsh on McTominay as he is not nearly as limited a player as Fred is. While both are poor positionally, McT’s passing has progressed significantly over the past couple of seasons and he is quite useful in possession.

But yeah I think we should be playing Pogba or DvB in midfield in most matches rather than Fred at this point. Especially considering the options we have on the left wing.
Fred is the better passer of the two and he actually wants to get on the ball unlike McTominay who's mastered going missing, especially when the opposition have more possession. Against West Ham Fred attempted 78 passes to McTominay's 58. This actually represents the norm between them on matchday
 

Longshanks

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Honestly, I dont get it what they do defensively that Ole seems to think we need them to play?

Fred to me is really bad in 50/50s now, I dont trust him at all. Scott I find is also positionally awful, he is never where the danger is. I asked myself, how many times have I seen either of these guys stopping an attack?

Its not like they are great passers that we can forgive them being bad defensively. Id bet someone like Jorginho has more interceptions than Scott for example.
You see the way we got constantly stripped on the counter vs wolves and Newcastle and then you see how we kept west ham under much more concerted pressure and there was considerably less dangerous counter attacks.

Thats what your not seeing.
 

MinGin

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because our Matic is old to sit in DM solely. And our Carrick is too old then sit in court-side.
 

roonster09

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Fred is the better passer of the two and he actually wants to get on the ball unlike McTominay who's mastered going missing, especially when the opposition have more possession. Against West Ham Fred attempted 78 passes to McTominay's 58. This actually represents the norm between them on matchday
Gundogan played 38 passes vs Southampton, Fernandinho played 54, Fernandinho was subbed out at 64th min.
Vs Leicester, Gundogan played 31 passes, Rodri played 51 passes.

Gundogan must have mastered the art of going missing and Fernandinho, Rodri are brave hearts for always showing up for possession.

Or maybe one makes more attacking runs and other plays deeper role where the player always gets on the ball.
 

Cassidy

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Because if Ole insists on 4231 and Bruno basically playing as a second striker then they are the best pair defensively from what we have
 

United in sin

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Gundogan played 38 passes vs Southampton, Fernandinho played 54, Fernandinho was subbed out at 64th min.
Vs Leicester, Gundogan played 31 passes, Rodri played 51 passes.

Gundogan must have mastered the art of going missing and Fernandinho, Rodri are brave hearts for always showing up for possession.

Or maybe one makes more attacking runs and other plays deeper role where the player always gets on the ball.
Yes, he's a box to box player who's being considered as the solution to our much needed DM specialist role by many. His lack of passing ability and poor creativity hampers the team and seems to be willingly glossed over too often

Gundogan averaged 61.2 passes per 90 in the league last season, his overall career average is 57 passes per game. McTominay managed 40.6 passes per 90 in the league last season, with an overall 37 per game career wise. For more context, Pogbas numbers in the same vain are 51.3 and 52.3. Bruno has 53.65 career average per 90 at united thus far. Fred had 60.2 in the league last season and 57.4 career average. McTominay's numbers are poor
 
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devilish

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McT is the Nicky Butt of this team. He's the epitome of a tidy player who'll get things done without ever excelling in it. He'll certainly not going to take on all the defensive duties in midfield by himself. Now lets have a look at his potential partners. Matic can't play week in week out, Pogba is a defensive liability, VDB is not liked by Ole while Fred is the Brazilian Robbie Savage. The Brazilian will run and tackle all day even though he's not really good in anything else really.

In my opinion United has a huge decision to take. It has nothing to do with Fred, after all everyone knows he's not good enough. We should be asking what role McT will have at United. Is he a first team DM? Is he more suited to a B2B role or is he good enough to be a squad player? I think that the third option is the correct one especially if Pogba remains. The guy is simply not good enough for a first team role. He lacks positioning to be our DM and his passing is lacking to be a B2B player. That doesn't mean that he won't get games though. Fletcher, OShea and Butt got plenty of games despite not being exactly first teamers. Assuming Pogba remains then I'd say we should sell Fred and VDB, we should sign Rice and Bissouma and we should promote Mejbri and Garner.
 

roonster09

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Yes, he's a box to box player who's being considered as the solution to our much needed DM specialist role by many. His lack of passing ability and poor creativity hampers the team and seems to be willingly glossed over too often

Gundogan averaged 61.2 passes per 90 in the league last season, his overall career average is 57 passes per game. McTominay managed 40.6 passes per 90 in the league last season, with an overall 37 per game career wise. For more context, Pogbas numbers in the same vain are 51.3 and 52.3. Bruno has 53.65 career average per 90 at united thus far. Fred had 60.2 in the league last season and 57.2 career average. McTominay's numbers are poor
So Gundogan started to hide from this season, looks like he learnt the art finally.

Matic averages 75-80 passes at ManUtd, maybe Pogba should also stop hiding.
 

United in sin

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Compare their passing stats from pass completion, to average passes per game to long passes, key passes and through balls

Fred

McTominay passing

So Gundogan started to hide from this season, looks like he learnt the art finally.

Matic averages 75-80 passes at ManUtd, maybe Pogba should also stop hiding.
Gundogan is at 51.4 average passes per 90 in the league thus far. The Southampton and Liecester games seem to be anomalies for him. McTominay is at 31.3. Too small of samples, why I went for last season and career totals, but already we're seeing the difference. McTominay is the worst passer among our CMs and doesn't get on the ball much, it's not that hard to see.
 
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Dante

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Balance.

Balance is when a team that has enough attacking ability, shooting ability, positional ability, pressing ability, passing ability, running ability, strength, pace, etc. in the right areas of the pitch.

What Fred and McTominay give us is the missing attributes that make the team balanced.

You wouldn't field a team with out any defenders and call it complete. Because the defenders are there to help the players ahead of them. By the same token, McFred are there to give Shaw/AWB the freedom to get forward. Hence why last season was the first of their careers when both fullbacks produced any end-product.

McFred's conservative passing also gives Bruno the freedom to play high risk passes. If all three players in the middle lost the ball easily, it wouldn't work. Again, it's about balance.

And by dropping back into defence, McFred allow Varane/Linedelof/Maguire to carry the ball into midfield and start attacks. That's been a big feature of United for a while now. And it wouldn't be possible without the two in midfield.

Also, it needs to be said that McTominay's positioning is pretty good these days. Maybe two seasons ago it was a bit ropey. But you don't get to play CB for your country if you don't know how to plug gaps.

Fred's role is to press and run and get involved. But he also get bypassed really, really, really easily. So McTominay's role is to sit back, hold the fort and get his body in the way when somebody beats Fred. The difference in their touches per game reflects that dynamic. But the balance is what mattered - both between them as a pairing and around them with rest of the team. Matic gives you some of that. Pogba barely any. McFred give us the most.
 

kundalini

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Honestly, I dont get it what they do defensively that Ole seems to think we need them to play?

Fred to me is really bad in 50/50s now, I dont trust him at all. Scott I find is also positionally awful, he is never where the danger is. I asked myself, how many times have I seen either of these guys stopping an attack?

Its not like they are great passers that we can forgive them being bad defensively. Id bet someone like Jorginho has more interceptions than Scott for example.
Do you watch the matches ?

United typically operate with both Shaw and Wan-Bissaka high up the pitch. When we lose possession and the opposition counters, you normally see Fred rush back to stop attacks into the space that you'd expect to find your left-back, while McTominay does the same role on the right.

This happens time after time. How can you miss it ?

Scott also heads clear corners, wide free-kicks, blocks the occasional shot, cuts out crosses when the defence is out of position. Again, this happens match after match.

I'm struggling to believe that you watch United matches.
 

roonster09

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Gundogan is at 51.4 average passes per 90 in the league thus far. The Southampton and Liecester games seem to be anomalies for him. McTominay is at 31.3. Too small of samples, why I went for last season and career totals, but already we're seeing the difference. McTominay is the worst passer among our CMs and doesn't get on the ball much, it's not that hard to see.
Why is Gundogan per 90 mins and McTominay per game? Is it because per 90 mins McTominay played 48 passes?

Also Gundogan shouldn't be compared with McTominay, he should be compared with City CMs.
Rodri - 78 passes per 90 mins
Fernandinho - 69
Gundogan - 53

Also passing is not the only way player is involved in the game. For example, Fred received 49 passes, McTominay received 42 passes per 90 mins this season.
Last season Fred received 53 passes, McTominay received 45 passes per 90 mins.

Barely much difference in their availability to receive passes. Fred is better in that area as he drops deeper more often than McTominay, doesn't mean other player is hiding.
 

Siorac

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Compare their passing stats from pass completion, to average passes per game to long passes, key passes and through balls

Fred

McTominay passing



Gundogan is at 51.4 average passes per 90 in the league thus far. The Southampton and Liecester games seem to be anomalies for him. McTominay is at 31.3. Too small of samples, why I went for last season and career totals, but already we're seeing the difference. McTominay is the worst passer among our CMs and doesn't get on the ball much, it's not that hard to see.
Just to add to that: here are last season's average attempted passes per 90 stats (Premier League only).

Fred: 66.3
McTominay: 53.6
Gundogan: 75.9

That 53.6 per 90 is VERY low for a central midfielder playing for a top club. It's hard to overstate how low, even allowing for our quite different and more... direct style of play. Jordan Henderson is at 95.9! Jorginho is at 78, Kovacic is at 86. I didn't check everyone at Liverpool, City, and Chelsea but so far only Naby Keita has been comparable to McTom, with his 60 attempted passes per 90.

His progressive passes per 90 metrics are similarly underwhelming (4.39 per 90 minutes) and again, he's quite comfortably beaten there not just by most of our rivals' midfielders but by Fred (5.6), too. Kante is comparable to McTom on this one but well, he blows him out of the water on defensive actions. More about that next:

McTominay's passing stats actually suggest that he's some kind of defensive destroyer - except, well, he's comfortably beaten by Fred in defensive actions, too. Except blocks. They were equal on that. But tackles, pressures, defending against dribbles - Fred simply does more. The one thing where McTominay is comfortably better is, well, aerial stats. But then it would be hilarious if he wasn't.

Basically, McTominay's stats - oh yeah, he's also languishing behind most midfielders in touches per 90 - pretty much confirm what the eye test says: he doesn't do enough to influence games, he lets games pass him by a bit too much for a central midfielder. And of course he quite obviously isn't a better passer than Fred.
 

United in sin

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So Gundogan started to hide from this season, looks like he learnt the art finally.

Matic averages 75-80 passes at ManUtd, maybe Pogba should also stop hiding.
Why is Gundogan per 90 mins and McTominay per game? Is it because per 90 mins McTominay played 48 passes?

Also Gundogan shouldn't be compared with McTominay, he should be compared with City CMs.
Rodri - 78 passes per 90 mins
Fernandinho - 69
Gundogan - 53

Also passing is not the only way player is involved in the game. For example, Fred received 49 passes, McTominay received 42 passes per 90 mins this season.
Last season Fred received 53 passes, McTominay received 45 passes per 90 mins.

Barely much difference in their availability to receive passes. Fred is better in that area as he drops deeper more often than McTominay, doesn't mean other player is hiding.
McTominay is at 31.3 average passes per 90 in the league, I mention this in the very post you're responding to!

Gundogan is at 51.4 average passes per 90 in the league thus far. The Southampton and Liecester games seem to be anomalies for him. McTominay is at 31.3

You're the one who first mentioned Gundogan and compared him to McTominay as more attacking mids vs defensive midfielders in Rodri and Fernandinho


"Or maybe one makes more attacking runs and other plays deeper role where the player always gets on the ball."

You compared McTominay to Gundogan, the two who make more attacking runs vs the deeper lying Fred, Rodri and Fernandinho, no? Now you're switching up and comparing Gundogan to two defensive mids, why?

In a post above, @Dante says this about McTominay's role:

So McTominay's role is to sit back, hold the fort and get his body in the way when somebody beats Fred.

I don't agree with this and I'm sure you don't seeing as you also see McTominay as a number 8. McTominay may perform that task of covering Fred in some sequences of play but he is indeed the box to box player with Fred dropping deep more often. Fred has more tackles and interceptions than McTominay per 90 in the league and as a career overall/at united for a reason. McTominay also plays more advanced when he plays with Pogba in a pivot, like in the EL final. I digress!

You changed your position a few times in this discussion to be fair
 
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United in sin

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Just to add to that: here are last season's average attempted passes per 90 stats (Premier League only).

Fred: 66.3
McTominay: 53.6
Gundogan: 75.9

That 53.6 per 90 is VERY low for a central midfielder playing for a top club. It's hard to overstate how low, even allowing for our quite different and more... direct style of play. Jordan Henderson is at 95.9! Jorginho is at 78, Kovacic is at 86. I didn't check everyone at Liverpool, City, and Chelsea but so far only Naby Keita has been comparable to McTom, with his 60 attempted passes per 90.

His progressive passes per 90 metrics are similarly underwhelming (4.39 per 90 minutes) and again, he's quite comfortably beaten there not just by most of our rivals' midfielders but by Fred (5.6), too. Kante is comparable to McTom on this one but well, he blows him out of the water on defensive actions. More about that next:

McTominay's passing stats actually suggest that he's some kind of defensive destroyer - except, well, he's comfortably beaten by Fred in defensive actions, too. Except blocks. They were equal on that. But tackles, pressures, defending against dribbles - Fred simply does more. The one thing where McTominay is comfortably better is, well, aerial stats. But then it would be hilarious if he wasn't.

Basically, McTominay's stats - oh yeah, he's also languishing behind most midfielders in touches per 90 - pretty much confirm what the eye test says: he doesn't do enough to influence games, he lets games pass him by a bit too much for a central midfielder. And of course he quite obviously isn't a better passer than Fred.
Great post! I couldn't have said or presented it better.
 

roonster09

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McTominay is at 31.3 average passes per 90 in the league, I mention this in the very post you're responding to!
Not sure which site you are referring to, whoscored.com and fbref both say McTominay averages 51 passes per 90 mins in PL.

You're the one who first mentioned Gundogan and compared him to McTominay as more attacking mids vs defensive midfielders in Rodri and Fernandinho
No, I compared Gundogan to City midfielders who show "How he is hiding"


"Or maybe one makes more attacking runs and other plays deeper role where the player always gets on the ball."
You compared McTominay to Gundogan, the two who make more attacking runs vs the deeper lying Fred, Rodri and Fernandinho, no? Now you're switching up and comparing Gundogan to two defensive mids, why?
You compared McTominay with Fred to show McTominay was "hiding". I compared Gundogan with City midfielders to show how Gundogan was "hiding". It's not McTominay vs Gundogan. It's McTominay vs Fred and Gundogan vs City CMs.

In a post above, @Dante says this about McTominay's role:

So McTominay's role is to sit back, hold the fort and get his body in the way when somebody beats Fred.

I don't agree with this and I'm sure you don't seeing as you also see McTominay as a number 8. McTominay may perform that task of covering Fred in some sequences of play but he is indeed the box to box player with Fred dropping deep more often. That's why Fred has more tackles and interceptions than McTominay per 90 in the league and as a career overall. McTominay also plays more advanced when he plays with Pogba in a pivot, like in the EL final.

You changed your position a few times in this discussion
I haven't changed my position even once, it's not my problem if you can't read properly. Go and quote the posts where I compared Gundogan with McTominay.

These are the posts I made. Go on and point out.

Gundogan played 38 passes vs Southampton, Fernandinho played 54, Fernandinho was subbed out at 64th min.
Vs Leicester, Gundogan played 31 passes, Rodri played 51 passes.

Gundogan must have mastered the art of going missing and Fernandinho, Rodri are brave hearts for always showing up for possession.

Or maybe one makes more attacking runs and other plays deeper role where the player always gets on the ball.
So Gundogan started to hide from this season, looks like he learnt the art finally.

Matic averages 75-80 passes at ManUtd, maybe Pogba should also stop hiding.
Why is Gundogan per 90 mins and McTominay per game? Is it because per 90 mins McTominay played 48 passes?

Also Gundogan shouldn't be compared with McTominay, he should be compared with City CMs.
Rodri - 78 passes per 90 mins
Fernandinho - 69
Gundogan - 53

Also passing is not the only way player is involved in the game. For example, Fred received 49 passes, McTominay received 42 passes per 90 mins this season.
Last season Fred received 53 passes, McTominay received 45 passes per 90 mins.

Barely much difference in their availability to receive passes. Fred is better in that area as he drops deeper more often than McTominay, doesn't mean other player is hiding.
 

MvG

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Just to add to that: here are last season's average attempted passes per 90 stats (Premier League only).

Fred: 66.3
McTominay: 53.6
Gundogan: 75.9

That 53.6 per 90 is VERY low for a central midfielder playing for a top club. It's hard to overstate how low, even allowing for our quite different and more... direct style of play. Jordan Henderson is at 95.9! Jorginho is at 78, Kovacic is at 86. I didn't check everyone at Liverpool, City, and Chelsea but so far only Naby Keita has been comparable to McTom, with his 60 attempted passes per 90.

His progressive passes per 90 metrics are similarly underwhelming (4.39 per 90 minutes) and again, he's quite comfortably beaten there not just by most of our rivals' midfielders but by Fred (5.6), too. Kante is comparable to McTom on this one but well, he blows him out of the water on defensive actions. More about that next:

McTominay's passing stats actually suggest that he's some kind of defensive destroyer - except, well, he's comfortably beaten by Fred in defensive actions, too. Except blocks. They were equal on that. But tackles, pressures, defending against dribbles - Fred simply does more. The one thing where McTominay is comfortably better is, well, aerial stats. But then it would be hilarious if he wasn't.

Basically, McTominay's stats - oh yeah, he's also languishing behind most midfielders in touches per 90 - pretty much confirm what the eye test says: he doesn't do enough to influence games, he lets games pass him by a bit too much for a central midfielder. And of course he quite obviously isn't a better passer than Fred.
McTominay does need to be more assertive in dropping deep to show for the ball. But surely if those stats paint an accurate picture it’s even more damning that Fred only attempts 66 passes per 90 from his deeper role ?

The progressive passes stat is one I have trouble putting much stock in. It’s hard to believe considering Fred’s penchant for passing the ball straight back to defense. But either way I struggle to understand how anyone could watch both players and conclude that Fred is the better passer of the ball.
 

amolbhatia50k

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They aren't great but as many have said they're the most effective pairing. We desperately need new additions in midfield.
 

roonster09

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Given we seem to be after Rice, it would be a hard one to execute in Jan.
Hope we are flexible with the list of players. Rice would be good addition for sure, we need to push for one more CM too in that case. Sign 1 in Jan and 1 in Summer assuming Pogba leaves next season.