What damage does the Super League do to domestic leagues?

[sullydnl]

As far as I can see this does terrible damage to Europe's domestic leagues.

Using the PL as an example, obviously everyone wants to win the title. But for those who fall out of the title race, the need to qualify for CL places provides incentive to keep performing throughout the season. We saw it with ourselves, Chelsea and Leicester last year, we see it with Leicester, West Ham, Chelsea and Liverpool this year.

That changes once a SL is created. Once one of the SL teams know they can't finish first, their league position no longer has real impact on their fortunes. Their focus will naturally be on the most prestigious and lucrative competition they're involved in (the SL) and their remaining PL games become about nothing more than the "pride" of finishing 5th rather than 6th.

For the non-permanent SL clubs, what changes? Well one of them might get to join the SL for a year knowing they're in no real position to compete against the much wealthier permanent members and likely to be absent the following year. Meanwhile the rest might be looking to get into the CL/EL, which will have been largely stripped of their current prestige and financial value with the departure of the best teams and players, reduced to third rate competitions. So lower stakes for those clubs who drift further and further from the big clubs financially.

In short, I can't see how this doesn't devalue the PL as a competition as it removes some of the fundamental dynamics that make it so competitive. Am I wrong?

 

[RedStarUnited]

Too much fear mongering.

The top teams can concentrate on trying to win the league - as they should. The rest of the league will be fighting to get into this new lucrative competition.

"Well one of them might get to join the SL for a year knowing they're in no real position to compete against the much wealthier permanent members "

This already happens, What chance do you give West Ham next year in the CL if they get in?

 

[Maluco]

It kills it dead.

If United get off to a bad start, you could have as many as 30 meaningless games for the rest of the season.

Winning the league isn’t the marker for the best team in the country anymore, just whoever was motivated to have a decent start.

Wins like Leicester will just be because big sides gave up half way through.

It’s a complete disaster

 

[sullydnl]

Too much fear mongering.

The top teams can concentrate on trying to win the league - as they should. The rest of the league will be fighting to get into this new lucrative competition.

"Well one of them might get to join the SL for a year knowing they're in no real position to compete against the much wealthier permanent members "

This already happens, What chance do you give West Ham next year in the CL if they get in?

You say "the top teams" will compete for the title but those top teams will only ever be from the permanent SL teams, bolstered by the lucrative and guaranteed financial income that competition provides.

The ability of a team like Leicester to supplant a team like Arsenal (as they have in recent years) among the league's "top teams" disappears as regardless of how they perform in a given season they cannot compete in the long-run with Arsenal's guaranteed wealth and status, which is now unaffected by their league performances. The ability to build on the windfall of competing in the CL relative to one of the big name teams that misses out is diminished.

The likes of ourselves and Arsenal (who deservedly fell behind other teams who were better run than us in recent years and failed to make the CL) are now protected from our own incompetence.

 

[RedStarUnited]

You say "the top teams" will compete for the title but those top teams will only ever be from the permanent SL teams, bolstered by the lucrative and guaranteed financial income that competition provides.

The ability of a team like Leicester to supplant a team like Arsenal (as they have in recent years) among the league's "top teams" disappears as regardless of how they perform in a given season they cannot compete in the long-run with Arsenal's guaranteed wealth and status, which is now unaffected by their league performances. The ability to build on the windfall of competing in the CL relative to one of the big name teams that misses out is diminished.

The likes of ourselves and Arsenal (who deservedly fell behind other teams who were better run than us in recent years and failed to make the CL) are now protected from our own incompetence.

This already happens though. No matter what a team like Norwich does for example, they will never be able to compete with us financially.

 

[bosnian_red]

The ESL teams will likely leave the domestic leagues shortly after and the rest of Europe will have their leagues but it all being secondary to the main European Super League.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Imagine this year, city have won the league. Every other team (the elite) will just use the league as friendly matches as their position in the league is meaningless.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Too much fear mongering.

The top teams can concentrate on trying to win the league - as they should. The rest of the league will be fighting to get into this new lucrative competition.

"Well one of them might get to join the SL for a year knowing they're in no real position to compete against the much wealthier permanent members "

This already happens, What chance do you give West Ham next year in the CL if they get in?

6 teams won't compete evenly for the title every year.

 

[edcunited1878]

UEFA will still have their own European competition. They just lose out on their marquee competition due to lack of "marquee" clubs. Do you really think UEFA will just not have a European club competition and sit on their hands when there is still money to be made?

You'll still have teams trying to win the league, especially the PL since it has many competitive top teams. Yes some teams like Arsenal and Tottenham probably don't deserve this free pass, however this can provide a European opportunity for other clubs that normally wouldn't participate in Europe.

Yeah, the attractiveness isn't the same, but it's still Europe. The big clubs are throwing their weight around in response to UEFA and their proposed CL reforms....the clubs who know they have the leverage and influence are being petulant. I don't agree with it, but can understand money whores doing battle with money whores....it marginalizes the fans and football league structures that they've been part of for years.

 

[sullydnl]

This already happens though. No matter what a team like Norwich does for example, they will never be able to compete with us financially.

But a team like Leicester can absolutely overtake a team like Arsenal. Or a team like West Ham can use the financial windfall the CL provides to further the gap between themselves and Spurs/Arsenal, who are hurt financially by failing to get a CL place. That's how you get the traditional "top four" disappearing as it has in recent years, with established sides losing ground to other better run teams and qualifying for the CL less and less often.

That goes with the introduction of the SL. The league's top teams will always be the SL six, because they're the ones with that guaranteed income year on year.

 

[Denis79]

As far as I can see this does terrible damage to Europe's domestic leagues.

Using the PL as an example, obviously everyone wants to win the title. But for those who fall out of the title race, the need to qualify for CL places provides incentive to keep performing throughout the season. We saw it with ourselves, Chelsea and Leicester last year, we see it with Leicester, West Ham, Chelsea and Liverpool this year.

That changes once a SL is created. Once one of the SL teams know they can't finish first, their league position no longer has real impact on their fortunes. Their focus will naturally be on the most prestigious and lucrative competition they're involved in (the SL) and their remaining PL games become about nothing more than the "pride" of finishing 5th rather than 6th.

For the non-permanent SL clubs, what changes? Well one of them might get to join the SL for a year knowing they're in no real position to compete against the much wealthier permanent members and likely to be absent the following year. Meanwhile the rest might be looking to get into the CL/EL, which will have been largely stripped of their current prestige and financial value with the departure of the best teams and players, reduced to third rate competitions. So lower stakes for those clubs who drift further and further from the big clubs financially.

In short, I can't see how this doesn't devalue the PL as a competition as it removes some of the fundamental dynamics that make it so competitive. Am I wrong?

Nope, you're right. It will slowly kill off the leagues.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Imagine this year, city have won the league. Every other team (the elite) will just use the league as friendly matches as their position in the league is meaningless.

This is true. Its a disaster.

 

[sullydnl]

It also changes how player recruitment will work.

Right now a player could easily opt for Leicester over Arsenal/Spurs if they're in the CL next season, believing that they have a better chance of continuing to compete at that level. Thus Leicester continue getting stronger and more competitive.

Whereas in the future the SL clubs will be the permanent first choice for any player. Arsenal finish six places behind Leicester? Doesn't matter, they're always going to be the wealthier club with a guaranteed place in the biggest competition, so players will always opt for them.

 

[Irwin99]

Football has been moving to preserve a status quo for years (the 'big four' which then became the 'big six') but there were always opportunities for a team to sneak in and upset the order of things and for a big team to fall from grace (recently United, Arsenal, AC Milan, and a few years ago Liverpool).

This competition forever entrenches the big six as the dominant elite and destroys the idea of sporting merit. It also means that those clubs will always have the income of the super league to fall back on. It's a disgraceful idea.

 

[RedStarUnited]

But a team like Leicester can absolutely overtake a team like Arsenal. Or a team like West Ham can use the financial windfall the CL provides to further the gap between themselves and Spurs/Arsenal, who are hurt financially by failing to get a CL place. That's how you get the traditional "top four" disappearing as it has in recent years, with established sides losing ground to other better run teams and qualifying for the CL less and less often.

That goes with the introduction of the SL. The league's top teams will always be the SL six, because they're the ones with that guaranteed income year on year.

Again, this is your narrative but not reality. since 04/05, Only Everton (in 05) and Leicester after their title win have qualified for CL. The rest of the time all CL qualifiers have been one of these top 6 teams going in to the SL

 

[cyberman]

Football was fantastic before top 4, it will be fantastic after top 4.
Well just go back to that. Plus 6 teams (probably 7) can add real quality to a title race.
We are rich yet our last 7 years have been dogshit and havent hurt us any less because of it. Teams will still want to win.

 

[Green_Red]

It's hard to say for sure without seeing/reading any of the exact details of their proposal. Not sure if the plan is to have this in addition to the existing competitions like PL and CL, or whether the clubs would be leaving one of those competitions behind?

 

[Red00012]

It kills it dead.

If United get off to a bad start, you could have as many as 30 meaningless games for the rest of the season.

Winning the league isn’t the marker for the best team in the country anymore, just whoever was motivated to have a decent start.

Wins like Leicester will just be because big sides gave up half way through.

It’s a complete disaster

The over the top reactions like this aren’t helping the situation . Most likely we will have 2 competitions when this starts. More money been pumped better players in the squad . We are doing the double.....

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Again, this is your narrative but not reality. since 04/05, Only Everton (in 05) and Leicester after their title win have qualified for CL. The rest of the time all CL qualifiers have been one of these top 6 teams going in to the SL

Yes but look right now. Leicester in a great position (as they were last year) and West Ham threatening too.

I could imagine a future (before the SL announcement) where arsenal don't make top 4 for years to come...

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I think the Premier League will have to go into a play off system if only to give teams an incentive to finish higher up the position with the European places no longer there.

 

[RedSky]

Surely, it's going to have huge impact on football across the board in England as the Premier League will not be as lucrative as it once was, the tv money will therefore reduce fairly quickly and thus the smaller clubs will have even less money. All of this just when we've had a global pandemic... you don't need to be a genius to figure out it's going to have huge repercussions from grass roots football all the way up to the Premier League.

The whole reason why the PL is such a fantastic league is because it's unpredictable and extremely competitive. Finishing in the top 4 for CL football was a massive incentive and a huge reward for clubs outside of the traditional top 6. Now that's gone, it's just a number for these teams. If they win fantastic, obviously they'll celebrate! But finishing 2nd will be the same as finishing 17th for founders. Just look at this season as an example of how unpredictable the PL is, we could finish the season with only 2 of the 'founders' finishing in the Top 4. But for Arsenal, who really gives a shit anymore? They can be average in the league and simply show up for the European games. Same for any club who falls on hard times, more over... whats the point for the other clubs? What hope does Leicester have for example who are a team who have on merit been excellent for a number of years now and yet, no top draw fixtures for them anymore. They aren't part of the trendy tossers, thats unfortunate for them I guess right?

It's a disaster really for any fan of competitive football, we could be getting these European fixtures on merit if we had been good enough to qualify into the CL final stages. But we've been shite for years and stumbled into Europa far too many times and our precious egos have been hit hard, so we've run off crying to make our own tournament. It's pathetic how entitled these clubs are. If you're not getting these fixtures then sort your our house out and get your own shit together. (I'm looking at you Ed Woodward/Glazers).

 

[Maluco]

The over the top reactions like this aren’t helping the situation . Most likely we will have 2 competitions when this starts. More money been pumped better players in the squad . We are doing the double.....

Literally doesnt address any of the concerns about it at all. You could be sitting in a position from November where you have nothing to play for. It’s awful and makes the league second rate.

 

[FahadiHossein]

I live in a country where we had our own version of the super league, in which we once sent the top players of the country to another country's league to compete when we already had a decent domestic league for more money from TV and fans. Fans did not really come back for the superleague team and the domestic league was treated like an afterthought and more people stopped watching domestic league when the superleague team was scrapped.

Now the domestic team is finally in the champions league and fans may come back after so many years.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Surely, it's going to have huge impact on football across the board in England as the Premier League will not be as lucrative as it once was, the tv money will therefore reduce fairly quickly and thus the smaller clubs will have even less money. All of this just when we've had a global pandemic... you don't need to be a genius to figure out it's going to have huge repercussions from grass roots football all the way up to the Premier League.

The whole reason why the PL is such a fantastic league is because it's unpredictable and extremely competitive. Finishing in the top 4 for CL football was a massive incentive and a huge reward for clubs outside of the traditional top 6. Now that's gone, it's just a number for these teams. If they win fantastic, obviously they'll celebrate! But finishing 2nd will be the same as finishing 17th for founders. Just look at this season as an example of how unpredictable the PL is, we could finish the season with only 2 of the 'founders' finishing in the Top 4. But for Arsenal, who really gives a shit anymore? They can be average in the league and simply show up for the European games. Same for any club who falls on hard times, more over... whats the point for the other clubs? What hope does Leicester have for example who are a team who have on merit been excellent for a number of years now and yet, no top draw fixtures for them anymore. They aren't part of the trendy tossers, thats unfortunate for them I guess right?

It's a disaster really for any fan of competitive football, we could be getting these European fixtures on merit if we had been good enough to qualify into the CL final stages. But we've been shite for years and stumbled into Europa far too many times and our precious egos have been hit hard, so we've run off crying to make our own tournament. It's pathetic how entitled these clubs are. If you're not getting these fixtures then sort your our house out and get your own shit together. (I'm looking at you Ed Woodward/Glazers).

Spot on. I actually think that it is the owners' and Super League's goal to kill domestic leagues. That way, they entrench profits ad infinitum and can change the game to increase those locked-in profits further.

It's sickening and I hope it doesn't happen.

 

[hobbers]

Irreparable and inconceivable damage.

Literally, we wont be able to conceive just how much damage this will do until we see it unfold in front of us.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Way too much damage.

I just hope this ESL nonsense somehow doesn't go through, but I doubt it at this point.

 

[sport2793]

Surely, it's going to have huge impact on football across the board in England as the Premier League will not be as lucrative as it once was, the tv money will therefore reduce fairly quickly and thus the smaller clubs will have even less money. All of this just when we've had a global pandemic... you don't need to be a genius to figure out it's going to have huge repercussions from grass roots football all the way up to the Premier League.

The whole reason why the PL is such a fantastic league is because it's unpredictable and extremely competitive. Finishing in the top 4 for CL football was a massive incentive and a huge reward for clubs outside of the traditional top 6. Now that's gone, it's just a number for these teams. If they win fantastic, obviously they'll celebrate! But finishing 2nd will be the same as finishing 17th for founders. Just look at this season as an example of how unpredictable the PL is, we could finish the season with only 2 of the 'founders' finishing in the Top 4. But for Arsenal, who really gives a shit anymore? They can be average in the league and simply show up for the European games. Same for any club who falls on hard times, more over... whats the point for the other clubs? What hope does Leicester have for example who are a team who have on merit been excellent for a number of years now and yet, no top draw fixtures for them anymore. They aren't part of the trendy tossers, thats unfortunate for them I guess right?

It's a disaster really for any fan of competitive football, we could be getting these European fixtures on merit if we had been good enough to qualify into the CL final stages. But we've been shite for years and stumbled into Europa far too many times and our precious egos have been hit hard, so we've run off crying to make our own tournament. It's pathetic how entitled these clubs are. If you're not getting these fixtures then sort your our house out and get your own shit together. (I'm looking at you Ed Woodward/Glazers).

To be fair, most of the successful clubs in recent times have signed onto this project. Lets not overcomplicate what this is all about, greed, plain and simple.

 

[Sayros]

Is there any way this train can be stopped now? It feels like there's no going back to the way football was even a few days ago.

 

[padr81]

It removes competition even if the clubs are allowed stay.

Lets say City are 10 points clear at christmas (doesn't have to be City just an example).
What have United to play for? Should they bust their ass trying to overhaul a 10 point deficit they know isn't gonna happen? No they shouldn't. "But they did years ago cus they're pro's" - No, years ago they didn't have a super shiny mega money midweek distraction regardless of where the finished. You fought for the title if you failed you fought for Europe, if you failed you fought for league position cause thats where the money came from, if you struggled you fought relegation. So what happens when out of the title race? Well if you are one of the ESL founders it really doesn't matter a bollix. 2nd in your league or 16th, the money is a drop in the ocean compared to your ESL money and reduced PL tv money, you can use the PL for rotation and fitness You only have to concentrate on the top 5 of your ESL group and hell if you're going through a bad period in your league ala Arsenal, don't worry be happy, finish wherever because you'll have such an advantage from your ESL £££ that eventually you'll just pass out everyone bar the other ESL members and make a nice little closed top 6 with even less chance for the little guys to get in.

Best case scenario for Leicester 5 years after this starts - 7th. No way they are getting near teams with £400 million a season... none. It was bad enough when it was just City and United with 100-200m. So yeah it evens up the top 6 probably but that means feck all to West Ham or Leicester etc.. they become all about being best of the rest. But hey you can come 7th and qualify for Uefa's biggest tourney and play Ajax and Roma every week, Surprise your tv/Uefa income will be a bag of crisps and a plate of sandwiches after the match every week. You will get sympathy money from the ESL teams to stop you folding though, kinda like here's $0.01 cent from my $600000000000000.00 All while Sheikh Mansoor buys another throne and the Glazers each purchase a solid gold toilet, FSG buy their own scouting network so they don't have to hack Cities and Perez finally buys something for Real out of non-government money.

 

[Stack]

As far as I can see this does terrible damage to Europe's domestic leagues.

Using the PL as an example, obviously everyone wants to win the title. But for those who fall out of the title race, the need to qualify for CL places provides incentive to keep performing throughout the season. We saw it with ourselves, Chelsea and Leicester last year, we see it with Leicester, West Ham, Chelsea and Liverpool this year.

That changes once a SL is created. Once one of the SL teams know they can't finish first, their league position no longer has real impact on their fortunes. Their focus will naturally be on the most prestigious and lucrative competition they're involved in (the SL) and their remaining PL games become about nothing more than the "pride" of finishing 5th rather than 6th.

For the non-permanent SL clubs, what changes? Well one of them might get to join the SL for a year knowing they're in no real position to compete against the much wealthier permanent members and likely to be absent the following year. Meanwhile the rest might be looking to get into the CL/EL, which will have been largely stripped of their current prestige and financial value with the departure of the best teams and players, reduced to third rate competitions. So lower stakes for those clubs who drift further and further from the big clubs financially.

In short, I can't see how this doesn't devalue the PL as a competition as it removes some of the fundamental dynamics that make it so competitive. Am I wrong?

The creation of the EPL didnt kill off attendances to games in the leagues below. I hate the idea of a super league but football fans will still follow their teams and attend their games.

 

[Powderfinger]

In terms of competition, it hugely advantages the six SL clubs vis-a-vis the rest. But it probably also increases parity within the big six itself, cutting down City's advantage over the others in particular.

I don't think it meaningfully affects the prestige of the domestic league title. Just as now, the domestic league will be the second biggest prize clubs can win and they will try very hard to win it.

If anything, more clubs than before will have something to play for. In a typical year you'll have 2-4 of the top six feeling they can win the title for much of the year, then you'll have a bunch of clubs trying very very hard to qualify for the SL, then other clubs trying to get into the second/third tier European competition. And in the end, the the players will play hard even on clubs that can't win/lose anything because they're professionals who compete for a living and they want to earn bigger contracts. The idea that somehow nobody will play hard or care about domestic football is total fear mongering that doesn't stand up to the smallest amount of scrutiny.

I think the domestic cups will definitely lose out as the SL clubs will be playing significantly more European fixtures and they may start sending real B teams or youth sides into these competitions, even more so than now. My biggest question mark is what this does to future TV rights deals for the Premier League and to the domestic cups, and then how that will affect the way money flows (or does not flow) down the pyramid. I can conjure scenarios where that is pretty bad for lower league football but I can also imagine scenarios where other concessions are made such that no less money flows downhill than under the status quo.

 

[mav_9me]

The creation of the EPL didnt kill off attendances to games in the leagues below. I hate the idea of a super league but football fans will still follow their teams and attend their games.

Let's see using your example.

How would it be if there were a 20 club premier league with no relegation/promotion and no reward like top 4 to CL (cause there is no reward for that in ESL). Other than winning it what else is there?

Where does such a system exist? In the US sports. So how do they keep the interest alive? With a playoff system for the title. Personally not interested in that.

 

[sglowrider]

The Big Six will need a larger squad for sure. So the PL could enforce a squad size limit to have some sort of parity. Forget about the FFP.

But regardless can you imagine the Big Six getting additional revenues of £250M plus the PL TV money?

What it does is to relegate the CL into a rich man's Europa. And the Europa into a Carling Cup for Europeans.

 

[sglowrider]

It kills it dead.

If United get off to a bad start, you could have as many as 30 meaningless games for the rest of the season.

Winning the league isn’t the marker for the best team in the country anymore, just whoever was motivated to have a decent start.

Wins like Leicester will just be because big sides gave up half way through.

It’s a complete disaster

It was killed off when 4 teams could qualify for the CL.

 

[NinjaZombie]

What the "Super League" essentially means is that clubs like ourselves, Spurs and Arsenal, the ones who've been constantly missing out on CL and all the money in that, the past few years no longer have to "struggle" to finish in the top four so our owners can still make money and better yet, won't have to invest in the team whenever we don't look like finishing top four. Hooray.

 

[Arruda]

I don't see a chance in hell this is compatible with the clubs in ESL being in the national leagues in the long run. That idea is just a stop-gap, so the revolution sounds smaller to some and this seems just like a replacement of current European competitions. A way to make it more palatable.

The ESL will make the already insane difference between top clubs and others jump a few good levels. So you would end up with what would be essentially an amateurish competition with pro's using it to practice. They could care more or less, play to win or just be present, depending on a huge number of factors that are not related to the national league itself.

This is not sustainable if the national leagues are still to be taken seriously. And they will, there will be enough critical mass to want it that way, much like there are for secondary leagues all over Europe.

So I think if this goes through, clubs in the ESL will eventually drop out of the leagues. The ESL either works or doesn't, if it does they'll keep playing with the format to maximize profits and this might mean an increase in games to make up for clubs leaving national leagues.

 

[Gasolin]

Ideally, the UEFA should accept the ESL as the new CL but force the teams to agree on a relegation model. You cannot be in the ESL if you do not perform in your league. That's the only point they should fight. For the cap in spending related to revenue, that's alright, it is not great but it's a point that can be conceded.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Genuine question, before top 4/CL was a thing, isn't this exactly how it used to be?

 

[Gasolin]

Genuine question, before top 4/CL was a thing, isn't this exactly how it used to be?

No because you could get relegated like Leeds.

 

[alanjohnson]

What annoys me about this super league idea

Clubs like Real Madrid lived off government bail outs and Franco to become successful. Both Real and Barca get the lions share of their league's revenue money. Rightly so because THEY are the draw. However clubs like ours had to share revenue with all the premier league sides despite being THE Draw for a long time. That enabled Real/Barca to use their leverage to become the most financially successful clubs in the world. The benefit of the Premier league shared tv revenue model was that it become the most entertaining/competitive league globally. Now clubs like Barca and Real are beginning to feel financial strain. So why are EPL clubs trying to benefit those european clubs? why not stick to the premier league and end la liga clubs long run?

I also don't like that Tottenham get to be part of this league. they're a big club but so what? They're just another premier league club.
Annoying.