I think 2 summers back was the focus on defence (heaven, yoro, mdl, maz). I think next summer we'll be focussing on raising the ceiling and replacing a few older players.
What do we need to do to win the league?
- Thread starter FootyGirl88
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Problem is we still don't have a reliable cb pairing and are weak at fb
He also spent a little bit of time with Fergie…
The basis is literally just picking up points at a similar rate that he did last season, with what might end up being a slightly better squad. A massive challenge no doubt, but there are question marks over all our rivals too.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Having an unbalanced team drags down even the good players in the squad and eventually they lose form and confidence due to too much burden placed on them. Secondly, it stops the progress of young talented players for the same reason. First thing we should aim to have is to be able to produce atleast 6 or 7/10 players every week in all positions regardless of injury (except mega injury crisis). This means less injuries and more capable players in all positions.
This is why I like INEOS approach of fixing atleast one position every summer by introducing enough depth in terms of number of competent players. And buying a lot from PL because atleast that's a less risky option compared to buying from Netherlands or Italy for example.
Become more consistent with the wins. Pull off wins against Chelsea, City, Arsenal, but then lose against teams like Leeds and Burnley.
Agreed, but we're onto the normal cycle of upgrades at that point. Unless Heaven, Yoro, Martinez and MDL all turn out to be perma-crocks and/or not up to snuff, then its more likely that we're trying to replace one of them with someone closer to elite level, rather than having to go out and buy in volume all over again.
We are in market economy, market sets price
You can call "overinflated price" if everybody pays 50M and City pays 95. When everybody, even fecking Spurs, pay 85M+ that is simply current market price
If you dont pay current price for quality you get discount market "quality" and nobody builds a winning team with that
But that’s not what we’ve done. What we’ve done is figure out how to pay under “market price” for quality players who would have gone for more if it wasn’t for extenuating reasons. EG Tielemans having a fairly low release clause. If we weren’t able to take advantage of that, we’d likely be paying a lot more for him. It’s not like he’s a lower quality “discount” option compared to Tonali who went for £100 million. It’s fairly easy to argue that Tielemans is the better, more established CM.
Competing for titles is a more realistic and sensible goal than actually winning it because of the externalities one can't control for. One can be good enough but still not win it or the other way round as well.
We should be able to compete this season with our squad and all the movement around us making opponents weaker. If not this year, defo the next. What we'll need though is some more quality signings + luck with injuries which is why I think it'll be next season before we can fix the gaps.
We should be able to compete this season with our squad and all the movement around us making opponents weaker. If not this year, defo the next. What we'll need though is some more quality signings + luck with injuries which is why I think it'll be next season before we can fix the gaps.
Exactly that. I do like Tonali many on here do not. I also think Tilemans is an excellent player. Many are turning their nose up because he only cost £30 odd million. We refused to pay £85 million for Fernandez yet have signed two players for that price.
We are now been linked with Scott, Beleba and Kone. We can apparently buy Kone for £50 million and are briefing we’d do this rather than pay over the odds for the other two. Truth is no one seen the other two players coming, so no one knows what’s next?
This is some next level narcissistic delusion. INEOS were the only ones who figured-out that Tielemans had a release clause, and everybody else are idiots? That is what you genuinely believe, mate? Seriously?
And you think Tielemans is anywhere as good as Elliot Anderson?
This is some next level narcissistic delusion. INEOS were the only ones who figured-out that Tielemans had a release clause, and everybody else are idiots? That is what you genuinely believe, mate? Seriously?
And you think Tielemans is anywhere as good as Elliot Anderson?
Can you explain what’s narcissistic about my post?
There’s no need to strawman me - I’ve never claimed we were the only ones to know about his release clause.
And it was Tonali I compared Tielemans to, not Anderson. Not sure why you’re deflecting from my example to someone else completely. But yes, right now Tielemans isn’t a million miles off Anderson - he’s still been one of the best CMs in the league for the last few years for a more successful team than Anderson has played for. That’s why Villa fans are so upset about losing him. But Anderson is obviously much younger with high potential. They’re very different types of player though. We could have done with both.
Anyway, I don’t think Anderson was ever happening. The writing was on the wall for him going to City.
Nonetheless, Tielemans for £35 million is an excellent deal and we did well to pull it off. You can come back with your laughing emojis halfway through next season if he isn’t doing well for us.
What I meant is that - thinking that we are the only ones who figured-out public information about Tielemans having a release clause is narcissistically delusional. "We" (United) are geniuses and everybody else are idiots who don't see the obvious right under their noses? That is clearly not the case, so why do you believe such thing?
I am not saying Tielemans is a bad deal. I sincerely hope him to be a great player for us. That's not the point. The point is - he is a bargain deal. He is not as good as Anderson, or Tonali. There is no guarantee that any of them won't flop, but right now, right here - top shelf are Anderson and Tonali and Tielemans is at least a level below them, both quality, as well as age and injury history-wise. You do know he missed 112 days in 25/26 season, right? That is not insignificant at all, and likely a big part of why others didn't gamble on him.
Clubs seriously planning for trophies do not gamble in discount shop, they go for the best. Clearly not what we did. So that is why your post got a laughing emoji, you are trying to sell a big INEOS gamble as some kind of unique genius move.
I never said that though. I simply pointed out that we had successfully taken advantage of a release clause to obtain a player at a value that is widely considered to be below market value. Do you actually disagree with that point?
I suspect from your take on Tonali and Tielemans that you haven’t actually watched them play much. Tonali is better at running. Tielemans is better at football, and I am pretty confident the latter will work out better for us than Tonali will for Spurs. And I’m also very confident we have a much better shot at silverware next season than Spurs do.
Anyway, I asked you not to strawman me and you’ve come back straw mannning me ever harder than before. If you can’t engage in a more honest fashion then I don’t see the point in engaging any further with you.
At least your choice of words in a paragraph about a certain player missing a lot of games made me chuckle.
Certainly didn't mean to offend you. Sorry if that is how it felt.
Tonali is 3 years younger than Tielemans and had pretty much zero injuries vs Tielemans' scary amount of missed days. So even if you consider them equal talent (I don't but agree it's not a huge difference) on those aspects alone Tonali's price should be much higher
If you think we got Tielemans at "below market price" why do you think there was nobody competing with us to trigger the release clause?
You are right that Tonali may not do well at Spurs and even Anderson may flop (I very seriously doubt the latter but it is possible) but that is a function of many things and still doesn't mean that we bought better players than our competitors
Do you want our club to hunt for "bargains" or the best players? I want the latter for sure
I think many people are burnt by us paying stupid money for shit players in the past, but it's ironic that in that equation people fixate on money and not on the fact that those were bad or wrong players
There is nothing wrong about paying goos money for top players. Sir Alex used to do that all the time
Because lots of other top teams either have more pressing needs elsewhere in their squad, or they’ve already bought some other CMs for more money. The player may also have wanted to come to us more than other teams, or we may have moved quickly enough that other clubs didn't get the chance. Who knows. What we do know is that Villa fans rave about him and are gutted he’s gone.
I just want our club to address our glaring squad deficiencies by making the smartest transfer choices possible within the available budget, and I’m going to judge players on their ability and suitability, not on how much they cost. Spurs don’t impress me because they spent three times more on Tonali because I think Tielemans is the better footballer.
The fact is we needed 2/3 midfielders this summer as well as reinforcements elsewhere, and we have limited funds. In that context £85 million on Santos and Tielemans seems like much smarter business to me than £185 million on Tonali and Fernandes (especially when you consider the huge added cost of their wages). One of my biggest concerns with our CM rebuild this summer was that we wouldn’t add technical players who can look after the ball and who have an excellent range of passing. Our purchases so far have reassured me greatly on that front, and I think we’ll be a better team for it. If we can add some legs and defensive nous with our final CM signing then I’ll be genuinely excited about our improved midfield options this season.
In an ideal world, I’d love for us to have unlimited funds and buy whichever players we want, but we just don’t. I can’t change the fact that we have parasitic owners instead of super rich sports washers in charge. It therefore makes a lot more sense to me to judge our transfer business in context rather than pretend we’re living in a different reality where we can just go around buying all the best and most expensive players - an approach that doesn’t always work anyway.
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I'm getting serious Mason Mount vibes off Tielemans, buying him despite a massive red flag of him missing a significant part of last season with injury.
I hope to God I'm wrong but I'm not sure how missing out on our main targets and scrambling for discount deals instead is a sign of strength right now.
Interestingly Carrick said Yoro and Heaven are raw but actually two of the best CB’s in the world for their age. We must remember these two are still teenagers and there are very few teenagers who are first choice centre backs for any top team.
Tonali is top shelf? I want whatever you're on, mate.
Newcastle fans thrilled to have him gone, yet he is top shelf, whereas Villa fans are losing their minds over Tielemans leaving. This alone should tell you that Tielemans is obviously a better player and always has been. Name one aspect Tonali is better at in football than Tielemans, other than running and driving forward with the ball.
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We need to beat every team possible and gain as many points as possible. That’s usually how teams win the league. Also we need to do the double over city… do any players ever learn lessons. When Cherki ran his mouth off about us we destroyed them…. Now Anderson is doing the same
Lets be realistic here, we have very little chance of winning the league this season regardless of who we sign in the next month. A CL season again would be a positive step.
They are very different players, but there's a reason Tonali costs three times more, and it's not just the release clause and age either. For all his considerable qualities, Tielemans has limitations that someone else have to compensate for if he's going to be effective - above all, his limited running capacity and athleticism. He's Casemiro with even better passing, but without the tackling. Tonali is an all-rounder who contributes in pretty much every facet of the game and doesn't need sheltering, even if he's not as good creatively as Tielemans. That's the kind of midfielder you want on a contending team, and he is rightly considered a more valuable player than YT.
In terms of personnel, we need multiple new players to actually contend for the league. The current owners don't care about titles, just money so we won't make the changes we would need. At least one more midfielder, a CB, RB, LB and another Striker at least.
Crucially they would have to be quality signings too and not bargain basement alternatives.
We would probably also need a different manager (sorry) as I don't think Carrick is winning any league titles.
Crucially they would have to be quality signings too and not bargain basement alternatives.
We would probably also need a different manager (sorry) as I don't think Carrick is winning any league titles.
No, the reason is Tottenham, the fact that Tielemans had a release clause and his age, the exact things you said wasn't the reason. Tielemans is a much better player and ran over 15 kms in one game in the World Cup, more than Tonali has ever done. Is Tonali faster? Sure, and he has generally a better work rate but you're making it sound like Tielemans is some lazy bum incapable of working hard for the team. He regularly covers most distance of all players in his teams.
Fred is also an all rounder and contributes in all facets of the game, you don't pay 100m for him for that. Tonali is a mediocre passer, crap defensive stats, poor creatively and weak dribbler and goal scorer. Why exactly would you value Tonali over Tielemans based on their skills?
The only thing Tonali has over Tielemans is running power and ball carrying.
I think we are still a long way from winning the league.
Need another midfielder, a striker, left back and centre back with the fitness issues others have in the squad. I think you would probably want another wing option and not 100% convinced Dalot or Maz are Championship winning RB's.
I think we would be fine at RB if we had a settled, top tier CB pairing and someone like a Lewis Hall at LB.
Need another midfielder, a striker, left back and centre back with the fitness issues others have in the squad. I think you would probably want another wing option and not 100% convinced Dalot or Maz are Championship winning RB's.
I think we would be fine at RB if we had a settled, top tier CB pairing and someone like a Lewis Hall at LB.
We need to somehow stabilise ourselves as a top 4/5 team for say 3/4 years in a row and have a couple of decent runs in it. The perception that we are always one step away from disaster needs to go, so that players see us as one of the best choices in England again.
At the moment; we are realistically 5th choice in England for most players. Combine that with a reluctance to pay the same money as our main rivals, and it’s not a recipe for success. Essentially, we need our manager to be a miracle worker and/or for a lot of our recruitment to be spot on and develop a couple of world class gems.
At the moment; we are realistically 5th choice in England for most players. Combine that with a reluctance to pay the same money as our main rivals, and it’s not a recipe for success. Essentially, we need our manager to be a miracle worker and/or for a lot of our recruitment to be spot on and develop a couple of world class gems.
I've not said anything to suggest I think Tielemans is lazy or won't work hard for the team. I'm pointing out he's generally not considered to be a very mobile or athletic player, or one capable of covering large areas. He needs the right structure around him to cover that. He's a very good player. But I have zero problem seeing why Tonali commands a much bigger fee, which I'm pretty sure he would even without the release clause. There aren't many midfielders with his profile and quality (and Fred certainly isn't one of them)
There are a lot of midfielders with his profile and quality. He is a jack of all trades, master of none. You don't pay 100m for a player whose specialty is work rate and running.
Fred was the exact same profile. I think you're overrating Tonali's quality crazy high.
Tielemans made fewer tackles than Casemiro last season, but many more than Tonali did last season. That’s actually a metric Tonali is pretty poor in for his position. He’s definitely a better runner, but we can get that for a lot less than £100 million.
The reason Tielemans is cheaper is age and release clause. Plus Spurs being stupid enough to spend that much on a more limited player like Tonali.
You always go with the crowd opinion, instead of having your own opinions? That is concerning
If Villa fans are heartbroken en masse about selling a 29yo player that was basically injured all season, there must be something in the water over there that is causing mass psychosis?
I listen to fans' of other clubs' opinions on their players, of course. Why would that be concerning? When we wanted Hojlund out, do you think other fans were begging for him to join their club?
Why are you making things up? He played in 25 games in the league (almost 2000 minutes) and nearly every game in Europa League. How is that basically all season? Enlighten me
He still played 25 league games, and Villa’s win rate was much higher with him in those games than it was in the games he was missing. That’s why their fans are fans of his - he was an integral part of their successful league campaign and their cup win.
Do you ever take a minute to reread your posts? So often they’re full of really weird hyperbole and nonsense. “Mass psychosis” because they like a player who has done really well for them? Get a grip mate.
I find it odd the stick he get's on here. I've always been impressed by him. He's a workhorse and ticks a lot of boxes and is, as you say, an all rounder. There's a reason most of the top clubs were in for him. Whether he's worth what they paid is irrelevant for me. He improves Spurs, who have bought well and are a threat for top 4 next season with new signings and players coming back from injury.
I think Tieleman's is a shrewd signing for the price and Santos has potential, but noting the thread title, this doesn't put us any closer to winning a title. Arsenal and City are improving and I think will stretch the gap, Spurs will be up there and Chelsea and Liverpool will improve. It'll be even harder to finish top 4 next season and with a lot more games, and a squad that already needed depth, it'll be a good season if we get back into the CL.
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Agreed. That's miles off, and it'll be even harder if we're not prepared to pay what other clubs are.
The big money spent on players post-Fergie has been disastrous, but that's evidence of how poorly the club have been run from a footballing perspective. The wrong players are the wrong players, whatever they cost.
If the club is going to work to a budget, then we'll find our level. The idea that we can consistently punch above our weight isn't realistic.
Winning the league is about grinding out results week in week out. Maybe if we cant win it on having the best first team but maybe we can have the best squad.
Kone - 50 mill
Hall - 60 m
Schlotterbeck - 50 mill
Mateta - 30 mill
Keep Rashford
If we can somehow get this level of players in all our weak positions - LB, CB, Striker, 3rd midfielder, LW. Spending 250-300 mill. Then that's one hell of a squad with a lot of experience including prem experience that's ready to go.
Yeah I know everyone is going to say we dont have the money and wont get Hall etc. but its in answer to the question - How do we win the league. And I think this is at least possible even if unlikely. If we can raise the floor significantly like this then next season we smash the ceiling and buy two 100 mill plus players to take us to the next level.
Kone - 50 mill
Hall - 60 m
Schlotterbeck - 50 mill
Mateta - 30 mill
Keep Rashford
If we can somehow get this level of players in all our weak positions - LB, CB, Striker, 3rd midfielder, LW. Spending 250-300 mill. Then that's one hell of a squad with a lot of experience including prem experience that's ready to go.
Yeah I know everyone is going to say we dont have the money and wont get Hall etc. but its in answer to the question - How do we win the league. And I think this is at least possible even if unlikely. If we can raise the floor significantly like this then next season we smash the ceiling and buy two 100 mill plus players to take us to the next level.
There are many players with his profile, but not his quality. The comparison with Fred is ridiculous.
You're overrating his quality
What is he particularly great at since you talk about quality?
No, it is not. Fred was a starting midfielder in a double pivot where we ended up 2nd and 3rd in the PL and generally underrated here, but he should never be a 100m player, like Tonali. All this talk about Fred's passing being diabolical is so exaggerated. If you think his passing is poor, you should watch Tonali's.
I honestly think half the people raving about Tonali have barely watched him play
You forget one important reason: Newcastle didn't want to sell him.