What is Ole doing!

[tenpoless]

Call me an idiot but i always have this nagging feeling that Ole is going to be the Van Gaal we wanted. One who rebuilt the squad, filling it with talents and good spirit but not the one who will take us to glory. Hope Im wrong.

 

[redmanx]

Some of the rubbish written about Ole is beyond belief. In the game against Bern Bad Boys it wasnt Ole who got sent off and it wasnt Ole who gifted the opposition a goal. Im pretty sure he doesnt set up for incidents like these, incidents of stupidity and carelessness he cannot possibly foresee or do anything about when they happen. Hes been building this team for a couple of years now and is finally getting close to what he wants; he deserves at least one season with them to see how far he takes it and it takes him. I think the minimum requirement for this season is second place in the Prem and FA Cup and/or CL final. Hopefully we'll win at least one of these and finish very close in the others. If we fall short in the Prem, below second, or fail to make the FA Cup or CL Finals then maybe the time will be right for Ole to step aside but I cant believe some people, including some media,are calling for his dismissal after 3 Prem matches and 1 CL match.

 

[redmanx]

Call me an idiot but i always have this nagging feeling that Ole is going to be the Van Gaal we wanted. One who rebuilt the squad, filling it with talents and good spirit but not the one who will take us to glory. Hope Im wrong.

He deserves the chance to take the team to glory after building it, but if glory evades him again maybe then will be the time for him to go.

 

[DutchCruijff]

I think the club will continue to back him even if we don't win anything this season. The club appears to be stabilizing under him. Last year was the first time we qualified for the CL two years running since Fergie. I know a lot of money has been spent during his time, but a lot of money was spent by the managers before him too and we were terrible. The money has been invested well for the most part, and he's done a good job. The club probably think you could bring in someone like Conte for a year and maybe get some short term success, but if things work out with Ole we could potentially have many years of sustained success.

Sustained success?

We've literally had no material success whatsoever with him and he's been here since end '18. In his career, the Tippeligaen is the high point of his "success".

I'd rather he win an actual trophy for us before one talks of "sustained success" because, as of now, he's shown zero calibre to pull it off.

 

[Matt851]

LVG and Mourinho had some of the best CV's in the game and look how that turned out.

Who do you suggest the club should hire this time?

Well lvg and mourinho were two once great managers that were hired when they were well past their best, mourinho in particular. I dont really understand the dismissal of the relevance of prior achievements, when was the last time a manager with a CV like ole's won a major trophy?

If ole left now then he would be leaving the club in a better place, with a team thats well placed to challenge but i dont think he is up to the job of actually challenging for titles

Also, i dislike mourinho but he did achieve more in his time at the club than ole has to date despite leaving a mess when he left

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

The only thing I can see us winning this season is the FA cup or carabao cup and that isn't enough unless we challenge for the league and / or champions league

The problem with ole isn't that he just makes the odd mistake, its that he just isn't good enough across the board to be managing a club of our stature and his CV demonstrates that.

He's doing a better job than Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho did. Their CV's were great but they served up 7 years of shit and spent a fortune.

Ole has brought stability to the club, cleared out so much shit from the squad, is attracting top talent to play here, the football is improving, everything is looking to be heading in the right direction.

People forget that who ever came in had a huge rebuilding job. It would be utterly pointless to give up on the rebuild project at this point to put all our chips on Conte for 18 months then fecking off or getting sacked.

So many nutters on redcafe it's almost unbearable.

 

[Matt851]

He's doing a better job than Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho did. Their CV's were great but they served up 7 years of shit and spent a fortune.

Ole has brought stability to the club, cleared out so much shit from the squad, is attracting top talent to play here, the football is improving, everything is looking to be heading in the right direction.

People forget that who ever came in had a huge rebuilding job. It would be utterly pointless to give up on the rebuild project at this point to put all our chips on Conte for 18 months then fecking off or getting sacked.

So many nutters on redcafe it's almost unbearable.

You seem to think anyone not fully committed to cult ole is a nutter

You also completely skirted over my point about Mourinho and van gaal being hired at the wring time

Whilst things have been more enjoyable under ole, he hasnt actually been more successful than mourinho in terms of winning trophies

 

[croadyman]

Funny thing is when it comes to players pretty much everyone agrees that need to go for the best ones. No one would argue against bringing let's say Kimmich to give Fred a chance, because he's done a fairly good job, gets the team, and while he makes an odd mistake here and there he mostly delivers. But when it comes to coaching the logic is totally different.

I think something we can all agree on is that Ole's coaching skills are not world-class. There are many here who think he's below average, many who think he's good, but we all know he's not world-class.

So why are we settling for anything below world-class? Specially considering we have 3 world-class coaching competing against us in the same league.

Because those yankee leeches who run this club are a bunch of cheap skates who take the safe option

 

[SAFMUTD]

I am not talking about years upon years of rebuilding, and i am certainly not using it as an excuse for him. I could point out that one of the most decorated managers in the history of the game said that getting that particular squad to second place by amassing 81 points was his greatest achievement. And no, that man wasn't Solskjaer. But i guess someone can retort that it was Mourinho's way of saying that he wanted out of the club.

Everyone knows what Mourinho meant by that was that he needed a stronger squad to get titles, not literally his greatest achievement. If asking Mourinho about the greatest achievements of his career do you seriously think he'll mention getting second with us as one of them? People love using that quote, but it's illogical to think he meant it literally.

Instead, let's have a look at Solakjaer's preferred 4231 when he landed the job: I believe it looked somewhat like this: DDG - Shaw/Smalling/Jones/Young - Matic/Herrera/Pogba - Rashford-Lingard-Martial. Out of the ten outfield players, only two (Shaw and Rashford) have maintained their original roles under Solskjaer. So, whatever you or i think, the man who gets paid to make these calls obviously decided that the first team was in need of an overhaul. What i argued in my initial post was that it takes time for a new team to gel together. It has, indeed, been a bumpy ride and there were definitely periods when it seemed that Solskajer would share a fate similar to his predecessors, but he survived. And to be frank, since i have complained more than once about his tactical choices over the years, this is a skill in itself. That's why i argued that he should get his chance.

Totally agree with this, obviously by giving him a chance I mean this season and that's it. If he can't win a major title or at least be close to winning, and by close I mean losing the league by 2-3 points not 15 and get at least to UCL semifinals, if he can't get that he should leave. We can't lose more time.

I would also argue that there hasn't really any rebuilding at United from 2013 up until 2019. On the contrary, throughout this time, we were making signings on the basis that we would challenge right from the start. Moyes signed two ready-made solutions who were supposed to have an immediate impact. Then LvG completely ripped up the squad to implement his style. Finally, Mourinho came in and signed Zlatan, Lukaku, Pogba, Matic, Mikhitaryan, Sanchez, Bailly, Lindelof. Except for Pogba, has anyone really been a success at United? This is the quality we're talking about?

Well that's were we disagree, every single manager had brought and sold their players. What's the difference between Moyes, LVG, Mourinho and Ole?

Moyes brought the following players:

Mata 25
Fellaini 25

LVG:
Di Maria 26
Shaw 18
Herrera 24
Rojo 24
Blind 24
Falcao 28
Martial 19
Schnederlin 25
Depay 21
Darmian 25
Schweinsteiger 30
Romero 28

Mourinho:
Pogba 23
Mhkitaryan 27
Bailly 22
Zlatan 34
Lukaku 24
Matic 28
Lindelof 22
Alexis 29
Fred 25
Dalot 19

Ole:
Maguire 26
Bruno 25
Wan Bissakaa 21
James 21
Ighalo 30
VdB 23
Diallo 18
Telles 27
Pellestri 18
Cavani 33
Sancho 21
Varane 28
Cristiano 36

Looking at them I really see no difference, what is that immediate success that other managers followed in their signings? By saying Moyes signed two "immediate" players you mean two 25 year old players? That can very well be said about Maguire and Bruno who were 26 and 25 at the time? What's the difference?

Besides Schweinsteiger and, arguably, Falcao LVG signined mostly young players so why is he not labeled as signing for the future? When he signed players like Shaw, Martial, Depay.

Mourinho as well signed fairly young players, only Zlatan and Matic can be mentioned as veterans. While Ole signed Varane, and specially Cristiano and Cavani who can't be seen as anything else but "immediate signings" So what's the difference?

The whole "signed for the future" narrative comes from signing Pellestri and Amad. But every manager signs youngsters, LVG signed Shaw and Martial, Mourinho signed Dalot. But you don't here them being mentioned as "signings for the future".

The difference is just the narrative surrounding Ole. The whole "rebuild" narrative is based only on the illusion that Ole "knows the clubs philosophy" he's on a "rebuilding job that needs patience" in my eyes those are only excuses to lower the preassure on him. He won nothing but no problem because that's not what asked for him, no preassure he's "rebuilding".

Despite what many people think or want to believe, "rebuilding" isn't just a narrative in team-sports. It's a reality and at the end/start of team-cycles, it's a necessity. It's the never-ending race to maintain momentum and instil the belief that there's always room for improvement. All you need to do is take a look at what has transpired just a couple of miles away from OT.

Well yes cycles exist in dynasties, such as Milan, Madrid, Barca or our very own after SAF retired. That happens when you got a team structure that is so good that you don't get rid or replace until the players as a whole are too old so you're forced to change it. But on normal bases no team takes 2-3 years to "rebuild". Teams are in constant rebuilding buying and selling players every single year. As I mentioned in my previous answer what exactly is the difference between Ole and the previous managers that his ternure is seen as a rebuild and the others weren't?

Just because a manager isn't Pep, Klopp or Tuchel doesn't mean that they are rubbish and they have nothing to offer.

But why settle for less? Why isn't our standard for coaches the same as our standard for players? You don't see anyone saying, well we shouldn't improve on McFred because even though they're not Xavi or Iniesta they still have something to offer.

We should aim for the best coaches, Ole and his coaching team are not top of the notch. So why is everyone ok with us persisting with them?

And it doesn't mean that there's no work to be done at a club except adding the final pieces to the puzzle. A few miles away from OT then, a certain Roberto Mancini got appointed as the City manager in December 2009 while the club was wallowing in mediocrity with a record of 6-8-2 in the PL. After the new manager bounce, City eventually missed out on top-four, lost a semi in the League Cup in the 93rd minute against United and crushed out of the FA Cup after a defeat at Stoke. Does it sound familiar? Next season, they secured CL football near the end by finishing third on 70 points, while they failed in the EL. They won the FA Cup that year, but with signings like Yaya Toure, David Silva, Kolarov and Dzeko, on top of talents like Tevez, Zabaleta and Kompany, that's not something to write home about, huh? City insisted on him, they spent the big bucks on Aguero and also bought wisely in the case of Nasri and Clichy. Toure dropped in the CM role, both partnerships up-front, Dzeko/Aguero & Nasri/Silva were terrorizing defences, both FBs could overlap and City won the league with +18 points and +33 goals compared to their previous season. They also adopted a possession-style football that follows them to this day.

The difference between Mancini then/Solskjaer now and Moyes/LvG/Mourinho is that when the latter got the sack, it felt that they were done, their respective teams' cycles had ended with very little to show for. This is not the case with this United side, and it wasn't with City back in 2011. You can tell that we're on an upward trajectory, at least squad-wise. That we still have a lot of potential. I will admit that the FA Cup helped Mancini's case and, as Neville said, the EL defeat may hang over Solskjaer for a long time.

He did that with his work and not by the grace of a shining CV (that faded away in the case of Jose and Louis), and that's why i'm willing to give him the season. But yeah, he has to deliver. Very few people will argue with that.

I think you deviate a little with the whole City and Mancini's story, but I agree with your last point. He has to deliver, no more excuses, no more "rebuild" "building for the future" nonsense. He needs results and trophies now or it's a failure no two ways about it.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

@SAFMUTD

We all know what Mourinho meant by that quote. In other words, the team his successor inherited needed a lot of improvement and not some minor fixes here and there. I believe we can agree that these things take time. And as i said, it hasn't all been rosy under Solskjaer. For example, the fact that we spent 130 million quid on the defence and now we seem to need close to another 100 for further improvements can make you start scratching your head. Or the decision to ship out the only target man in the side, in favour of Martial, only to revert to a clear goalscorer upfront while we still have our eyes set on Haaland should also be criticized. But that team, back in 2019, needed a fresh start.

I probably phrased my opinion in the wrong way regarding the transfers. What i meant was that the previous three managers were brought in and given funds to produce immediate results. The wheels came off, and the club crashed and burned on all three occasions. Solskjaer, as a manager with nothing much to show in his CV but with an affiliation to the club, was hired with the belief that the club had to take a step back before it can attempt a jump forward. Mistakes will always happen, but the point is to avoid signing the likes of Fellaini/Mata without knowing how to utilize them and also avoid debacles like Di Maria, Bastian or Schneiderlin. In this sense, we also seem willing to just wait until the player we want becomes available instead of signing someone for the sake of filling a position.

United are a club built around the culture of the manager. I'll repeat that we've reached the point where Solskjaer simply has to challenge for the major honours. And i don't believe you'll find many people among those who defend Solskjaer to the hilt who won't say the same thing. But at United, there's no structure to oversee the reshaping of the squad. Ferguson used to handle the football side of the club on his own and when he retired, the board members probably started looking at each other wondering "what the hell should we do now?". Maybe i'm wrong, but i believe that Solskajer gets a lot of leeway because most people don't have any trust in the men above him.

I agree with the last point. I will go even further and argue that even if Solskajaer delivers a title, if the next Pep/Klopp becomes available and is willing to come to OT, we should be brave and replace Solskjaer with him. But sometimes, when you're taking these first steps toward the top, it can be a great benefit to have at the helm someone who knows the club inside out. And i believe that you agreed that since he's built a very exciting and promising side, he should at least get the full season to manage it before we start asking for his head on a plate.

I mentioned Mancini as someone who, up until the recent Euro, would not be anyone's choice at the highest level of club football. It saddens me to say that City have moved on to better and bigger things, but he had a role to play in their history and, in the context of what followed, he helped them progress as a club. Maybe Solskjaer can do something similar here.

 

[Hammondo]

I agree with the OP, but with our players there are not many tactical options.

 

[Denis79]

Call me an idiot but i always have this nagging feeling that Ole is going to be the Van Gaal we wanted. One who rebuilt the squad, filling it with talents and good spirit but not the one who will take us to glory. Hope Im wrong.

I watched the Newcastle game with my father and he said that the manager after Ole will most likely win us the league. So you"re not the only one thinking this.

 

[SAFMUTD]

We all know what Mourinho meant by that quote. In other words, the team his successor inherited needed a lot of improvement and not some minor fixes here and there. I believe we can agree that these things take time. And as i said, it hasn't all been rosy under Solskjaer. For example, the fact that we spent 130 million quid on the defence and now we seem to need close to another 100 for further improvements can make you start scratching your head. Or the decision to ship out the only target man in the side, in favour of Martial, only to revert to a clear goalscorer upfront while we still have our eyes set on Haaland should also be criticized. But that team, back in 2019, needed a fresh start.

I probably phrased my opinion in the wrong way regarding the transfers. What i meant was that the previous three managers were brought in and given funds to produce immediate results. The wheels came off, and the club crashed and burned in all three occasions. Solskjaer, as a manager with nothing much to show in his CV but with an affiliation to the club, was hired with the belief that the club had to take a step back before it can attempt a jump forward. Mistakes will always happen, but the point is to avoid signing the likes of Fellaini/Mata without knowing how to utilize them and also avoid debacles like Di Maria, Bastian or Schneiderlin. In this sense, we also seem willing to just wait until the player we want becomes available instead of signing someone for the sake of filling a position.

United are a club built around the culture of the manager. I'll repeat that we've reached the point where Solskjaer simply has to challenge for the major honours. And i don't believe you'll find many people among those who defend Solskjaer to the hilt who'll say the same thing. But at United, there's no structure to oversee the reshaping of the squad. Ferguson used to handle the football side of the club on his own and when he retired, the board members probably started looking at each other wondering "what the hell should we do now?". Maybe i'm wrong, but i believe that Solskajer gets a lot of leeway because most people don't have any trust in the men above him.

I agree with the last point. I will go even further and argue that even if Solskajaer delivers a title, if the next Pep/Klopp becomes available and is willing to come to OT, we should be brave and replace Solskjaer with him. But sometimes, when you're taking these first steps toward the top, it can be a great benefit to have at the helm someone who knows the club inside out. And i believe that you agreed that since he's built a very exciting and promising side, he should at least get the full season to manage it before we start asking for his head on a plate.

I mentioned Mancini as someone who, up until the recent Euro, would not be anyone's choice at the highest level of club football. It saddens me to say that City have moved on to better and bigger things, but he had a role to play in their history and, in the context of what followed, he helped them progress as a club. Maybe Solskjaer can do something similar here.

I agree with most of it, we have a better squad with worse results. What's contradictory is that everyone agrees we have a better team now, better players. But still we haven't been able to reach the numbers Mourinho got with arguably a much weaker squad. So how can Ole get praised for it? You can't have your cake and eat it.

So which is it? Did he successfully build a better squad hence he failed by getting worse results? Or did he weaken the squad and punched over his weight?

I posted it in another thread that what worries me is that we are running against the clock with this squad. I think we can agree this is the peak of the current squad and it's only down from here with Cristiano and Cavani aging and Pogba possibly leaving. So giving Ole an extra year is no small thing, I do think that is not necessary to waste a full year to make a decision. If things start going south we should cut ties no matter how soon, we let Tuchel get away now Zidane is available maybe we are repeating the same mistake again.

 

[9 Stone Elvis]

Because LVG missed out on CL football, and Mourinho was clearly on the way to missing out on it.

If we finish 2nd with no trophy again, Ole won't be sacked.

Exactly, hence me saying a trophy doesnt matter unless its the league or CL.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Some of the rubbish written about Ole is beyond belief. In the game against Bern Bad Boys it wasnt Ole who got sent off and it wasnt Ole who gifted the opposition a goal. Im pretty sure he doesnt set up for incidents like these, incidents of stupidity and carelessness he cannot possibly foresee or do anything about when they happen. Hes been building this team for a couple of years now and is finally getting close to what he wants; he deserves at least one season with them to see how far he takes it and it takes him. I think the minimum requirement for this season is second place in the Prem and FA Cup and/or CL final. Hopefully we'll win at least one of these and finish very close in the others. If we fall short in the Prem, below second, or fail to make the FA Cup or CL Finals then maybe the time will be right for Ole to step aside but I cant believe some people, including some media,are calling for his dismissal after 3 Prem matches and 1 CL match.

Yeah Ole could do nothing about the sending off. But it was his job to manage the game from then on. He got the tactics wrong. He parked the bus and invited pressure. When you do that for 65 mins then the odds of conceding and/or a deflection like the first goal and/or mistakes like Lingards increase exponentially. Yeah maybe you see out a draw but with that strategy but that's the kind of things that can happen and he takes responsibility when it does. Tactically (what this thread is about is) is that Ole is safety first manager. As opposed to the Klopps, Guardiolas etc and he is being criticized for that. Not just because of this game. But because it happens over and over and over again.

And its not only tactics. It was the substitutions. Fred was replaced in the 89th minute for Martial. Why? Makes no sense. If Fred was still on then maybe he would be in Lingards position and not made that mistake.

Yes its all if and buts, however all the tactical decisions Ole makes culminates in a result and he takes as much or even more responsibility because he is the manager. Otherwise you could just keep using excuses. Well he cant control how well the players played. Well he cant be at fault for that miss. Well he cant be at fault that the keeper never saved it.

 

[YikesSchmeics]

Some of the rubbish written about Ole is beyond belief. In the game against Bern Bad Boys it wasnt Ole who got sent off and it wasnt Ole who gifted the opposition a goal. Im pretty sure he doesnt set up for incidents like these, incidents of stupidity and carelessness he cannot possibly foresee or do anything about when they happen. Hes been building this team for a couple of years now and is finally getting close to what he wants; he deserves at least one season with them to see how far he takes it and it takes him. I think the minimum requirement for this season is second place in the Prem and FA Cup and/or CL final. Hopefully we'll win at least one of these and finish very close in the others. If we fall short in the Prem, below second, or fail to make the FA Cup or CL Finals then maybe the time will be right for Ole to step aside but I cant believe some people, including some media,are calling for his dismissal after 3 Prem matches and 1 CL match.

I agree with most of this post, the 2 extremes of "Ole in no matter what, and I wont hear an ounce of criticism or legitimate concern" and "Ole out, all his progress is because of the players, not him" are exhausting. I think he is doing a good job, but what we need is a great job. He needs to level up now and he needs to be given the season. The problem is, we have seen that game vs Young Boys far too many times now under Ole. And most hoped that after this summer we would move past that. The performances vs Wolves and Southampton were worrying but we won and drew so that papered it over, but the truth remains, we have had one half decent performance this season. And the YB game was a horrorshow from Ole.

On the bolded part, whilst what you are saying is true, it's been clear to anyone with half a brain for years now, that Jesse is not up to the level needed to get United to where they belong. And yet Ole has repeatedly tried to keep mediocrity at the club. Some of that is on the board who keep giving out these "value protecting" contracts to wastemen. We could have signed that DM that we all know we need, if we didn't have so much money tied up paying mediocrity - Jones, Jesse, Grant, Mata (love the guy but he is finished). Even Donny, who Ole blatantly doesn't rate (he should be able to get a tune out of him tbh, but that is a different conversation) had a move blocked by hoarder Ole. Free up all those salaries and suddenly that DM isn't beyond the club anymore. But no. A lot of that is on the club, overpaying and then handing out undeserved contracts, but the Jesse situation this summer shows that some of this falls on him. Had Jesse been clearly told he was surplus to requirements then I'm pretty sure he would have pushed for his move this summer. Instead he is stealing minutes and now getting offered a new contract because he scored vs the mighty Andorra and scored the decisive 4th goal in the last minute of a 4-1 win. And with the front 4 depth we have:

CF: Ronaldo, Cavani, Mason, Rashford, Martial
LW: Rashford, Sancho, Martial, Pogba
RW: Sancho, Mason, Amad, Rashford
AM/10: Bruno, Sancho, Pogba, Donny, Mata, Hannibal

There is absolutely no case for Jesse to get any minutes at this club anymore. And yet Ole has told him he is part of his plans and a new deal is being offered. The club literally never learn. So whilst Ole didn't kick the ball to the YB player, he is responsible for a player of such low quality being on the pitch in the first place.

Ole needs to be ruthless now. He needs to cast aside the players who will cost him his job, because as you say, if he finishes 3rd or less, and trophyless, this season, then his time is well and truly up.

 

[mitchmouse]

Some of the rubbish written about Ole is beyond belief. In the game against Bern Bad Boys it wasnt Ole who got sent off and it wasnt Ole who gifted the opposition a goal. Im pretty sure he doesnt set up for incidents like these, incidents of stupidity and carelessness he cannot possibly foresee or do anything about when they happen. Hes been building this team for a couple of years now and is finally getting close to what he wants; he deserves at least one season with them to see how far he takes it and it takes him. I think the minimum requirement for this season is second place in the Prem and FA Cup and/or CL final. Hopefully we'll win at least one of these and finish very close in the others. If we fall short in the Prem, below second, or fail to make the FA Cup or CL Finals then maybe the time will be right for Ole to step aside but I cant believe some people, including some media,are calling for his dismissal after 3 Prem matches and 1 CL match.

it's hardly after 4 PL matches and 1 CL game - it's been going on for more than two years now. No sign of a plan when things gone wrong, no sign of tactical nous, no sign of going on a long winning run

 

[mitchmouse]

To all those people backing Ole... please explain bringing on Dalot instead of Varane (and then having to bring Varane on anyway) and the intricate tactical switch to introduce Martial...

 

[redmanx]

Yeah Ole could do nothing about the sending off. But it was his job to manage the game from then on. He got the tactics wrong. He parked the bus and invited pressure. When you do that for 65 mins then the odds of conceding and/or a deflection like the first goal and/or mistakes like Lingards increase exponentially. Yeah maybe you see out a draw but with that strategy but that's the kind of things that can happen and he takes responsibility when it does. Tactically (what this thread is about is) is that Ole is safety first manager. As opposed to the Klopps, Guardiolas etc and he is being criticized for that. Not just because of this game. But because it happens over and over and over again.

And its not only tactics. It was the substitutions. Fred was replaced in the 89th minute for Martial. Why? Makes no sense. If Fred was still on then maybe he would be in Lingards position and not made that mistake.

Yes its all if and buts, however all the tactical decisions Ole makes culminates in a result and he takes as much or even more responsibility because he is the manager. Otherwise you could just keep using excuses. Well he cant control how well the players played. Well he cant be at fault for that miss. Well he cant be at fault that the keeper never saved it.

I seem to recall he got his tactics spot on when we beat PSG, and that wasnt the first or only time.

 

[redmanx]

I agree with most of this post, the 2 extremes of "Ole in no matter what, and I wont hear an ounce of criticism or legitimate concern" and "Ole out, all his progress is because of the players, not him" are exhausting. I think he is doing a good job, but what we need is a great job. He needs to level up now and he needs to be given the season. The problem is, we have seen that game vs Young Boys far too many times now under Ole. And most hoped that after this summer we would move past that. The performances vs Wolves and Southampton were worrying but we won and drew so that papered it over, but the truth remains, we have had one half decent performance this season. And the YB game was a horrorshow from Ole.

On the bolded part, whilst what you are saying is true, it's been clear to anyone with half a brain for years now, that Jesse is not up to the level needed to get United to where they belong. And yet Ole has repeatedly tried to keep mediocrity at the club. Some of that is on the board who keep giving out these "value protecting" contracts to wastemen. We could have signed that DM that we all know we need, if we didn't have so much money tied up paying mediocrity - Jones, Jesse, Grant, Mata (love the guy but he is finished). Even Donny, who Ole blatantly doesn't rate (he should be able to get a tune out of him tbh, but that is a different conversation) had a move blocked by hoarder Ole. Free up all those salaries and suddenly that DM isn't beyond the club anymore. But no. A lot of that is on the club, overpaying and then handing out undeserved contracts, but the Jesse situation this summer shows that some of this falls on him. Had Jesse been clearly told he was surplus to requirements then I'm pretty sure he would have pushed for his move this summer. Instead he is stealing minutes and now getting offered a new contract because he scored vs the mighty Andorra and scored the decisive 4th goal in the last minute of a 4-1 win. And with the front 4 depth we have:

CF: Ronaldo, Cavani, Mason, Rashford, Martial
LW: Rashford, Sancho, Martial, Pogba
RW: Sancho, Mason, Amad, Rashford
AM/10: Bruno, Sancho, Pogba, Donny, Mata, Hannibal

There is absolutely no case for Jesse to get any minutes at this club anymore. And yet Ole has told him he is part of his plans and a new deal is being offered. The club literally never learn. So whilst Ole didn't kick the ball to the YB player, he is responsible for a player of such low quality being on the pitch in the first place.

Ole needs to be ruthless now. He needs to cast aside the players who will cost him his job, because as you say, if he finishes 3rd or less, and trophyless, this season, then his time is well and truly up.

I agree, Ole has to start getting hard with his players, all of them including Ronaldo who should never have been allowed to start coaching from the side line. I love Ronaldo but as well as influencing his team mates with his skill, desire, professionalism etc he has to show discipline and respect to the manager. Lingard, Jones, DVB, Martial, Dalot, Baily should all be moved out and anybody else who clearly doesnt want to at United.

 

[izak]

Jezz if OGS was on the Cafe reading half the things said about him here, there's a 99% chance he would commit to Suicide by hanging.

I don't think the stigma of Ole not having statics would ever go away, even if he wins trophies here, as people would surely go by it wasn't his tactical acutness that got Manutd over the line but it was CR7 or Some other individual performance, that's been regularly pointed out here or on other threads

I must hand it to Ole he's developed a think skin over the years, I hope he wins something with this club as i believe if he does the floodgates for more trophies would open up.

 

[redmanx]

Jezz if OGS was on the Cafe reading half the things said about him here, there's a 99% chance he would commit to Suicide by hanging.

I don't think the stigma of Ole not having statics would ever go away, even if he wins trophies here, as people would surely go by it wasn't his tactical acutness that got Manutd over the line but it was CR7 or Some other individual performance, that's been regularly pointed out here or on other threads

I must hand it to Ole he's developed a think skin over the years, I hope he wins something with this club as i believe if he does the floodgates for more trophies would open up.

Ole has rebuilt the team and brought stability to the club and deserves the chance to take his team forward. If at the end of this season we win nothing and fail to compete in the Prem and CL then perhaps is the time to let Ole go though I imagine he will resign if things dont improve re trophies. But to be calling for his head so soon into the season is ludicrous.

 

[Rash Decision]

Jezz if OGS was on the Cafe reading half the things said about him here, there's a 99% chance he would commit to Suicide by hanging.

I don't think the stigma of Ole not having statics would ever go away, even if he wins trophies here, as people would surely go by it wasn't his tactical acutness that got Manutd over the line but it was CR7 or Some other individual performance, that's been regularly pointed out here or on other threads

I must hand it to Ole he's developed a think skin over the years, I hope he wins something with this club as i believe if he does the floodgates for more trophies would open up.

The stigma would certainly go away if we started consistently defeating other strong teams with good team performances.

Of course we all hope he wins something with us.

 

[Longshanks]

it's hardly after 4 PL matches and 1 CL game - it's been going on for more than two years now. No sign of a plan when things gone wrong, no sign of tactical nous, no sign of going on a long winning run

Other than some long winning runs in the last two years, numerous turnaround/come from behind wins and some tactical masterclasses in some games. You are absolutely correct.

No manager gets everything right, sometimes they make mistakes and get lucky sometimes they don't.

I think Ole got it wrong on Tuesday night we went to defensive to early and one or two of his substitutions didn't make alot of sense. But if it wasn't for a catastrophic error with the last kick of game from an apparently experienced player than we would of got a commendable point. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

Its not the first time ole has made mistakes and it won't be the last, he has a squad with the potential to challenge for some major trophies this season but there are also 3 other top squads with top managers who are also looking to challenge for major honours and thats just in our own league.

I know some people are not sold on him and he does deserve some criticism for Tuesday night but he has earned his opportunity to show what he can do with this squad he has built, maybe he will succeed maybe he won't but we won't know that till the end of the season.

 

[mitchmouse]

Other than some long winning runs in the last two years, numerous turnaround/come from behind wins and some tactical masterclasses in some games. You are absolutely correct.

No manager gets everything right, sometimes they make mistakes and get lucky sometimes they don't.

I think Ole got it wrong on Tuesday night we went to defensive to early and one or two of his substitutions didn't make alot of sense. But if it wasn't for a catastrophic error with the last kick of game from an apparently experienced player than we would of got a commendable point. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.

Its not the first time ole has made mistakes and it won't be the last, he has a squad with the potential to challenge for some major trophies this season but there are also 3 other top squads with top managers who are also looking to challenge for major honours and thats just in our own league.

I know some people are not sold on him and he does deserve some criticism for Tuesday night but he has earned his opportunity to show what he can do with this squad he has built, maybe he will succeed maybe he won't but we won't know that till the end of the season.

sorry.. but the fact you think a point against Young Boys (be it with 11 players or 10), speaks volumes about how far we have fallen. and I don't recall many long winning runs (not unbeaten runs, winning)

 

[Tony247]

He deserves the chance to take the team to glory after building it, but if glory evades him again maybe then will be the time for him to go.

I agree. He has to be given a full year now that rebuilding is over. This is his team now. Lets see how far he takes us.

 

[jderbyshire]

Give me a link to the young boys coach going into detail on tactics

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

He's doing a better job than Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho did. Their CV's were great but they served up 7 years of shit and spent a fortune.

Ole has brought stability to the club, cleared out so much shit from the squad, is attracting top talent to play here, the football is improving, everything is looking to be heading in the right direction.

People forget that who ever came in had a huge rebuilding job. It would be utterly pointless to give up on the rebuild project at this point to put all our chips on Conte for 18 months then fecking off or getting sacked.

So many nutters on redcafe it's almost unbearable.

Absolutely bang on the money.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I seem to recall he got his tactics spot on when we beat PSG, and that wasnt the first or only time.

whats PSG got to do with the price of cheese

 

[Longshanks]

sorry.. but the fact you think a point against Young Boys (be it with 11 players or 10), speaks volumes about how far we have fallen. and I don't recall many long winning runs (not unbeaten runs, winning)

A point in a champions league away game when you have been down to ten men for two thirds of the game, is good enough for any team of any era against any champions league side. Its nothing to shout about but it would deemed acceptable.

Long winning runs win you titles, maybe this season, maybe not we will see.

 

[Ahmer Baig]

When Ole took over as interim manager he won 9 or 10 or more games in a row with his offensive game plan. I could have been new manager effect. But since being nominated as a manager Ole has gone defensive. It seems he is so afraid to lose that he does not change his strategy or formation irrespective whatever opponent Man Utd are facing.

 

[redmanx]

whats PSG got to do with the price of cheese

Just explaining that he doesnt always get the tactics wrong as some people like to claim.

 

[tomaldinho1]

LVG and Mourinho had some of the best CV's in the game and look how that turned out.

Who do you suggest the club should hire this time?

I do think it's worth noting, as it really is crazy, that as a club who want an attacking identity and to bring youth through we have never actually hired a highly rated attacking manager...we've never even, when you honestly assess it, hired one of the elite managers in world football.

LVG was out of domestic football, known for dividing opinion and being too strict, plus he was retiring, Mou was coming off his second dressing room mutiny and long gone were the Porto, Chelsea, Inter days, Moyes was Moyes and Ole had no experience at the highest level. I always see people say 'look how it turned out' with hiring LVG and Mou and I think, in hindsight, that's exactly what we all should have thought would happen (and many predicted with Mou).

 

[UpWithRivers]

The West Ham game summarizes what I thought about Oles tactics. Everyone was having a fit bringing Jesse on and then Matic but if you see what Oles tactical plans are then it all makes sense.

Start with 2 defensive midfielders - Check
Retrieve the ball as quick as possible. - Check
Hit the front players, especially Ronaldo as quick as possible - check
One CB - Maguire to push forward and Shaw on Left side while right side is more defensive - Check
When its not quite working or we need a goal. The substitutions are based on whether the ball is getting to attack quick enough or if the attack is getting any joy. It seemed we were having chances but the front 3 werent quite firing. They played ok ish but it needed another spark. Hence bring on Lingard and Sancho. Then not quite there so he needs quick passes to the front 3. Usually this would be Pogba but he was not quite at the races today. Just wasnt his game. Hence Matic. And it worked. Matic quick ball to Lingard and Lingard produces the magic. Done.

I dont think Ole made any mistakes today. It was exactly spot on for his tactical plan except for maybe making the substitutions too late. Matic should have been on earlier. The other weaknesses in the game plan were down to just circumstances like certain players that are not quite peaking. Pogba just couldnt get into the game for whatever reason, Maguire was a bit off, Fred is having a bad start to the season and McTominay not 100 percent due to injury.

In this case just after a bad European result this is Ole at his best tactically. Yeah it could have been better and we could have lost it it the end but Oles tactics are usually on point in these kind of games where he needs a result any way you can get it. If he started Pogba in the midfield we would have lost or drawn. It works. But the tactics are ugly and they dont work in all games.

 

[mitchmouse]

The West Ham game summarizes what I thought about Oles tactics. Everyone was having a fit bringing Jesse on and then Matic but if you see what Oles tactical plans are then it all makes sense.

Start with 2 defensive midfielders - Check
Retrieve the ball as quick as possible. - Check
Hit the front players, especially Ronaldo as quick as possible - check
One CB - Maguire to push forward and Shaw on Left side while right side is more defensive - Check
When its not quite working or we need a goal. The substitutions are based on whether the ball is getting to attack quick enough or if the attack is getting any joy. It seemed we were having chances but the front 3 werent quite firing. They played ok ish but it needed another spark. Hence bring on Lingard and Sancho. Then not quite there so he needs quick passes to the front 3. Usually this would be Pogba but he was not quite at the races today. Just wasnt his game. Hence Matic. And it worked. Matic quick ball to Lingard and Lingard produces the magic. Done.

I dont think Ole made any mistakes today. It was exactly spot on for his tactical plan except for maybe making the substitutions too late. Matic should have been on earlier. The other weaknesses in the game plan were down to just circumstances like certain players that are not quite peaking. Pogba just couldnt get into the game for whatever reason, Maguire was a bit off, Fred is having a bad start to the season and McTominay not 100 percent due to injury.

In this case just after a bad European result this is Ole at his best tactically. Yeah it could have been better and we could have lost it it the end but Oles tactics are usually on point in these kind of games where he needs a result any way you can get it. If he started Pogba in the midfield we would have lost or drawn. It works. But the tactics are ugly and they dont work in all games.

He got it as right on Sunday as he got it wrong on Tuesday!

 

[largelyworried]

The West Ham game summarizes what I thought about Oles tactics. Everyone was having a fit bringing Jesse on and then Matic but if you see what Oles tactical plans are then it all makes sense.

Start with 2 defensive midfielders - Check
Retrieve the ball as quick as possible. - Check
Hit the front players, especially Ronaldo as quick as possible - check
One CB - Maguire to push forward and Shaw on Left side while right side is more defensive - Check
When its not quite working or we need a goal. The substitutions are based on whether the ball is getting to attack quick enough or if the attack is getting any joy. It seemed we were having chances but the front 3 werent quite firing. They played ok ish but it needed another spark. Hence bring on Lingard and Sancho. Then not quite there so he needs quick passes to the front 3. Usually this would be Pogba but he was not quite at the races today. Just wasnt his game. Hence Matic. And it worked. Matic quick ball to Lingard and Lingard produces the magic. Done.

I dont think Ole made any mistakes today. It was exactly spot on for his tactical plan except for maybe making the substitutions too late. Matic should have been on earlier. The other weaknesses in the game plan were down to just circumstances like certain players that are not quite peaking. Pogba just couldnt get into the game for whatever reason, Maguire was a bit off, Fred is having a bad start to the season and McTominay not 100 percent due to injury.

In this case just after a bad European result this is Ole at his best tactically. Yeah it could have been better and we could have lost it it the end but Oles tactics are usually on point in these kind of games where he needs a result any way you can get it. If he started Pogba in the midfield we would have lost or drawn. It works. But the tactics are ugly and they dont work in all games.

Agreed, it was a typical Ole match in terms of tactics, personnel & approach. Even the result - a comeback win - was very on brand.