I am with you. We need a deep lying passer who can still provide some cover to the CBs without necessarily being a proper DM. Fred and Mctominay partner with the CM as the runner.
Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?
- Thread starter Bastian
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Sancho & Rashford or Greenwood as wingbacks??
If you noticed my alternative was to sell Pogba, if necessary, if Kante (as you say) is unavailable and/ or getting past his sell by date and therefore to start again. I was suggesting we either continue with our short term patchwork/messing about approach; or go for something different, but it can no longer be a 'long term' solution.
The argument for the continued messing about approach was seemingly to be in order to give time for such as Garner to come through. This could be considered a long term solution, but only if it works!
However the long term solution you seemingly refer to has grown so long term in the thinking, its got whiskers on. Truth is we have had this long term problem and the long term solution, a long time already.... how much longer?
I don't think the idea was ever specifically to allow Garner to come through. I think the club are realistic enough to know these things aren't ever guaranteed. You wouldn't base your midfield solutions for the last few seasons on a young lad. You would just have in mind that he could be brought in at some point, but probably at a gradual rate, fairly typical considerations during squad planning.
It's more likely that the Fred signing for good money just hasn't quite fully hit the mark. Useful, but not the player we want to see every week. Then we have had the Pogba situation which has already attracted some comment on this thread. Then Matic declining, which is part of the point I was making regarding signing 30 year olds - that is going to happen.
The reason we need to aim towards a long-term solution is because that is where we are as a club and business. We just made a loss, we have mountains of debt. We are no different from most clubs in that we have to buy with value in mind and part of that is sell on value and long term productivity. The only big difference is we have larger funds and do not sell our best players often, but the conditions are the same and quite different from bankrolled clubs.
However this does not imply that we need a project player, or a speculative gamble - that is not what I mean by long term. We do very clearly need a quality addition but I think the right overall profile is important too.
I dont think we are getting a starting DM unless we sell Pogba. My question is are we better off with
Bruno
Scott/Fred/VdB Solid DM
OrScott/Fred/VdB Solid DM
Bruno
Fred/Scott Pogba
Imo I'd choose the first but it depends on the DM. What Pogba excels at that double pivot is his deep playmaking and progression of the ball. He's pretty average and even a liability at other key things like beating the press and defending. If we can get a deep playmaker that's solid defensively and can beat the press then we would not miss Pogba. We'd have a more effective midfield than the one with Pogba in itFred/Scott Pogba
Yes. Thanks for asking.Sancho & Rashford or Greenwood as wingbacks??
You really think any of them can play as wingbacks? There is not a single part of their game that makes them good wingback options.
Ole would sell DVB. Pogba will force his move and then United will pay 80 million for Declan Rice.
Ordinarily I would be happy to debate this with you but I can’t be arsed to be honest.
Come back when you can. Nae bother.
- Play Bruno as a false 9.
- Sell Fred. McT needs more time to learn and develop.
- Buy a proven world class DMF eg, Marcelo Brozović at a knockdown price from Inter Milan, (in fact raid Inter for a few summer bargains as they’re in financial meltdown).
It tells the whole story. It's not our midfield that's the problem. We are infact consistently hindered from using our strongest possible midfield combos thanks to the 2 issues I mentioned. Adding yet another midfielder won't touch the 2 main issues.
Because:
A. we have a right flank that can consistently stretch teams like our left does.
B. Our starting center defence can't operate a high enough line full time to enable us hem in opponents.
That leads both to the over deliberate ball movement and crearivity issue vs low blocks.
A Sancho would give us a second flank option for breaking the press. We currently have only the left flank
A center defence that can consistently operate a high line can enable us counter press any team that presses. By simply enabling us to give them a taste of their own medicine when we win back the ball.
With our current starter pair. We can't really utlilize an agressive press with 10 outfield players one we lose possession.
A perfect example I can give of this is City. When their starting pair was problematic. For an entire season aggressive pressing to win back the ball all but vanished fromm their game. After signing Dias to sort it out. It's now back
The biggest problem I believe with us fans is many of us conflate control 9f takes with just individual quality and tactics. Rarely things like balance, an inter partnership and departmental compatabilty.
It's why for example you will hear many say adding a Kane would just multiply our goals. Not noticing that without a consistent right flank attacking threat. ANY center forward would have consistent issues with supply and getting space to operate. No matter how great they are. Cavani for example would have twice the goals he had in a consistently two flank team.
Plus you will hear others say just upgrade the defensive shield. But it's shielding what? Even Fernandinho and Rodri couldn't shield a partnership flawed as Otamendi - Stones. Till it was scrapped it caused untold problems up and down the entire City 11. Liverpool too found losing their cbs so problematic they were even forced to withdraw their entire midfield shiped into defence. Tuning the entire team structure almost all season long. If it was just a matter of the shield. They'd have been very okay with just reserves in center defence because they had one of the best midfield shields in all Europe. Yet losing that center defensive compatibility and stability even ruined their plans of upgrading the midfield with Thiago's quality.
Even consistent flowing, "tempoed" and creative football requires a team to be in actual balance. From back to front left to right. United are consistently lopsided like a plane with one wing and one engine. It's thus zero surprise our resultant football is inconsistent in flow, tempo and creativity. Without examining our personnel
More likely:
DM: Matic, Garner
MC: McT, Fred
AMC: Bruno, Sancho
Neither of McFred are DMs, but McT seems closer to it.
Fred has defensive weaknesses: not so good in the air, too easy to run past. Fred covers the most ground but it really a replacement for Herrera, a ball hunter.
Garner - obviously inexperienced at this level, but so was McT when we began playing him. Massive question mark here.
Rice - they want silly money for him; there are better options available for less. No sign from United of a new midfielder coming this summer.
Jesse - sell him this summer while his stock is high. Sancho can play #10 too when Bruno is unavailable.
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A tactical shift to 4-1-4-1 with a Ronald Koeman type of DM in front of the defence. Someone who can spray the ball about 20-60 yard passes. We could then get by with a slow defence. 2 CM/AM, or 1 CM 1 AM against the better teams. 2 Wingers/wide forwards overlapped by the FBs all to support the striker. This put us on a more attacking footing with the assurance of the DM stamping out a counter.
Thanks, yes in principle I wouldn't disagree with anything you said.
I do however believe that we have not got the luxury that we might have had a few years back, time scale is now important and the club lost valuable time in not having a proper succession plan in place when SAF left. OK, you could argue their succession plan was they took Fergie's advice on Moyes; but all the things that should have been in place to help Moyes step up to the level required, were clearly not there. This was further demonstrated with the follow up appointments of first LvG, although experienced at top levels across Europe he was effectively a yesterday's man and also because it would seem for personal reasons, he was not intending to stay too long anyway. Then of course Jose, again a phenomenal success record across Europe and in the PL, but his style was never going to fit in with our traditions and a lot of people suspected that by now Jose's career had plateaued and as subsequent moves have tend to indicate, it is tailing off somewhat.
Again you could argue that with recent appointments the club is beginning to fill gaps and plan properly as a football club and not just as a money-making 'cash cow'. However I don't believe time is on our side, City have, off the field as well as on, it left us behind and of course having a benevolent very rich owner who is not out to make money, but to gain prestige, helps a lot. Chelsea are also owned by someone who clearly loves and understands football and maybe hasn't the resources of Sheikh Mansour, nevertheless is pushing at the boundaries. Liverpoo'ls owners are perhaps more akin to the Glazers in their outlook, as the recent debacle over the Super League has shown, but you suspect that early on they got in 'football people' to plan, to find Klopp and then to fund his transfers.
Sending Ed Woodward back to JP Morgan was a good move, by our owners, not just to placate fans, but because his obsession and admittedly great ability to make money, was not matched by how he seemingly authorised expenditure in support of the clubs need to be always 'in the hunt for trophies'.
Ole's position has got better but is however still tentative, he has done remarkably well and some of his player purchase have been exceptional and there is progress, but in some areas his judgement is still called into question, losing four semi-finals and one final in just over two years is not the stuff to 'stiffen the sinews and summon up the blood'
I believe we need some sort of emergency plan scenario, first on the pitch lets break the bank and go for the players in the positions we know we need, off the pitch, break the bank even further to improve OT properly, not just improving the concourse and getting rid of the rodents, but a proper overhaul, seating, access and egress, Wi-fi and proper communications (PA system is appalling). My guesstimate is we are looking at around at least £1B investment, roughly half £500k on players and the other half on back room staff and overhaul of the Ground.
I know I'm a dreamer, but 'never give up' as one famous United Old Boy said!
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Bruno is the main man in midfield, I'll sell Pogba and purchase a Deep lying playmaker, so Bruno, Fred allowed to press all over the pitch and a DLP who reads play well an is positionally discipline
Absolutely spot on and perfectly said.
He was 23 when he left Juve though. The extent to which he's improved hasn't been enough for me. The issue for me with him is that he's a nightmare to fit in tactically. He does so many things amazingly well but he just can't seem to bring them all out in a coherent manner.
I agree that it's probably best if he left for a fee but I don't see anyone paying a price for him and if he stayed the final year, I can't see Ole leaving him out in the cold, especially since he didn't when Raiola did what he did in December. So on that basis, other than the games against weaker opposition, I think we'll see him predominantly played off the left which suits him best, and with Rashford likely going in for surgery, he'll have ample opportunity to build up a head of steam there.
Also, if (for me it's more likely when) he leaves, I don't think we'll need to dip into the transfer market to replace him. Donny IMO was bought with a view to replacing Pogba, we have Mejbri coming through and Rashford will go back to being the undisputed LW at the club.
If Pogba was to leave this summer for a fee, then we'll be dipping into the transfer market for a DM to complete the midfield.
Bruno flourishes at United because he is given all the freedom. Thats why he feels fine to take risks. You can't play that way in the buildup. I would also say that his defensive contribution is overstated to a degree, he is surely good at being the only one chasing defenders without any support, which is admittedly easy on the eye. But apart from that, I would be at least as concerned about the defensive stabilty as I am when seeing Pogba in the double pivot.
About the bolded part: I think, it somewhat can be judged seeing what happened to the way Chelsea played in mid season. I don't think, they had much more time to spend than other teams.
I genuinly hope, that this "going to do about our midfield" isn't solely focused around new players because there are a lot more ingredients.
Fred is way to easy dribbled past to be considered a destroyer. We can surely employ a DLP but we can only field 11 players and you have to decide who the get rid off if you want Fred and/or McTom doing the running for a more elaborate DLP. Because Pogba won't be somebody to do this.
I understand your train of thought but to me it contains two flaws.
First thing: "balance on left and right side" . Symmetry is fine concept but it doesn't necessarily apply to football. Just remember the great Barcelona team or our team in 07/08. Evra on the left, Brown on the right - Dani Alves on the right, Abidal on the left. Football is about making use of the available space and sure, symmetry is one way to approach that but it isn't the only one. Dynamic overloading can only be achieved by breaking symmetry.
(That said, in total I agree with you, Sancho is the most sensible transfer this summer.)
Second thing regarding Kane. You're surely right, simply adding a striker won't mean, he will bring the assists of his former team with him. This would be a faulty statement. But it isn't much more faulty than to speculate that Cavani would flourish more when having a better winger on the right. These things aren't linear, just look at the 2019/20 season where we were quite fine with Greenwood on the right. Same goes for the question where to add a great player - midfield or defence? There isn't one final answer because both can work.
We have to stop the think that we are the only actors in this game. Our opponents will adapt, we have to do that as well. Having great players all over the pitch surely helps but it is just one of many ways - and certainly not the most optimal with stingy owners like the Glazers.
I like the optimism but I think, these emergency plan style "planning" is what brought us where we are. If you invest a lot of money, you want results. If you don't get results, you adjust the plans and with that you step away from LVG football to Mourinhos "style"...
We have to make smart decisions, not going all in because "now is the time". Good decisions this summer, next summer and so on. We won't be able to close all gaps in the squad, we might never be able to do that because a squad is dynamic and players decline and get older.
We have to fill the gaps with players that are perfectly scouted and available. And for the rest, we have a manager and a management team that can/should/have to set the team up to make use of strength and mitigate weaknesses.
With Sancho in, I see no place for Pogba in our team. Sancho, Cavani, Bruno and Rashford will be our main attack and Pogba is shit whenever he plays in double pivot. We're looking at the prospect of having a pretty expensive bench option who's running down his contract. Not worth it.
Sell and replace with a good offensive CM that can play in double pivot.
Sell and replace with a good offensive CM that can play in double pivot.
I agree. Move Pogba on and use the money to buy deep playmaker to play in double pivot who can play quick one touch progressive passing. We don’t need a DM because we aren’t playing 433 and we need more creativity in our build up play not slow build up play. A deep playmaker will be so much more suitable for our system than someone who prefers more freedom like Pogba.
It seems like a mistake to not have tried harder to keep Ander Herrera.
James Garner might well surprise a few by playing a role next season.
If Ole's looking for a low key bargain signing then someone like Florian Grillitsch could be a good addition.
If Ole's looking for a low key bargain signing then someone like Florian Grillitsch could be a good addition.
I appreciate where you are going with that. But your premise is flawed for two reasons: Both of those sides could attack with equal consistency down both flanks. Both sides were defensively balanced a.k.a had compatible pairings in defence. That is the one true way to utilize dynamic overloading. You unbalance an opponent to then switch to the opposite flank to close in on the kill, wrecking their symmetry. That is the balance I was referring to. I honestly do not know of ANY truly winning side that was lopsided in terms of balance when attacking, and when defending. That is the one thing truly holding United back I believe
I get what you mean
However, Greenwood is the EXACT proof of the first part of what I mean though. Greenwood though not a natural winger is comfortable as a wide right attacker. We have been a very changed side with him there when in form and our goal out put doubled as a result. With us a far less effective team without him there
Now imagine us with a true master of the wing arts like Sancho there. With Greenwood and Amad as options off the bench. We'd have the consistency down that side we have solely lacked. A consistency we have on the left
I'm often amazed people believe we struggle with low blocks because of our passing in midfield. Rather than because we can't consistently stretch them on either side to create the room for the killer pass from midfield or room for the killer run from the striker.
Best example I can give was our last championship winning team. We were not consistently special in midfield save for carrick. Yet it was our ability to produce top class double sided wing work that used to consistently murder teams all year long. Even if they parked a bus
As long as it's in a slower league than PL, also with more room.
It might help him if Ole reads some of these threads.
He was at Arsenal for 2 seasons, and didn’t make one appearance.
I remember the bolded part differently to be honest. I mean, the Messi-D.Alves partnership was devastating, the left with... Abidal and? Who was it even? I guess the partnership certainly wasn't on the same level. I'd say that also applies to Evra who was in some way very comparable to Alves in being a powerhouse that was running up and down the flank and being very comfortable on the ball (I'd say Alves endproduct was way better though).
So I guess agree to disagree. As I said, I wouldn't say symmetry should be avoided, but I think it isn't as important as I understand you to be. Especially considering the second reply:
I agree with your observation but I wouldn't draw the same conclusions. I think, while Greenwood was very good in that season, our attacking output was closely connected to a) Greenwood being a somewhat unknown (underrated?) entity for his opponents and b) opposition teams tried to play against us as they were used from Van Gaal and mostly Mourinho days: having a go at us. But adding Bruno, a motivated Martial and creating Rashford made us very effective on the counter, teams in Europe like Leipzig and Real Sociedad still made the same mistake and walking directly into the fire setting up to play us in the most comfortable way for us.
Additionally: following your train of thought, I would probably even say we don't have to look for the winger part of that "rightside-duo" but for the RB part.
Yeah but that "streatching the opponent" has two components: having the players in the right rooms and being able to move the ball to them. That is where I see some issues upcoming even if we get Sancho: even if we are able to then start attacks on either side, I don't know, who would be the player to play that crossfield ball from the left to the right. I guess (and hope) Bruno will adapt his game to be that player, but for that, he has to stop to play as a 2nd striker most of the time.
I guess, this thinking might be the reason that some people around here think, that a midfielder is just as important as that right-sided attacker.
So? Players develop at their own pace. Bennacer was still a teenager when he left them, he's obviously grown a hell of a lot since then. And besides, Arsenal have famously made countless feck-ups in recent years.
Only because Messi wasn't in it. On the left they had Thierry Henry the year they first won the treble for Pep, plus Pedro ahead of him. Their left flank was by no means lacking in consistent attacking potency and it havinga defensive Abidal deeper provided the defensive balance as Alves rampaged high. They were just like us when we had Brown on the right and Evra on the left. The guys playing in attack on Brown's flank were also excellent natural attackers on that side.
I feel you are conflating having a combo pair of attacking players on a flank, with possessing a consistent threat there or the balance I'm referring too.
United's current problem is Greenwood is the ONLY naturally comfortably right side in our attack. Apart from an 18 year old Amad. Remove Greenwood and we end up there with square pegs in round holes playing ahead of a Wes Brown/Abidal kind of fullback. We become lopsided in attack because AWB is not a great attacker. He is only good at adding supporting width. Most people would say "lets get in attacking fullback". But the fact is AWB has established himself as first choice. He is our Wes Brown of a fullback. So the easiest thing is to sort out the mess in attack ahead of him once and for all. That is why a Sancho should be a priority signing
That could work if you got a new first choice right back specialized in attacking.
They key though is to ensure no square pegs in round holes are EVER used down the right again. The problem with having kids like Greenwood and Amad there is the temptation to shoe hone into the line up the likes of Rashford to have all the best players on pitch. Which United' really needs to stop doing to take the next step in attacking evolution
If say center half is sorted and our cbs can operate consistently and comfortably in a high line:
A Pogba can then be that person to spray balls to either flank from deep vs low blocks. With DVB as his alternative. We currently can't do that now because our starting cb pair requires a two man protection vs better opponents which in turn mucks up our midfield creativity and our forward line.
I honestly don't see how adding ANY midfielder sorts that out. You add a DM, he still won't be able to protect Maguire + Lindeloff alone in big games as people imagine, to free up a Pogba to create more. You add a deep lying PM, he'd still need help from DMs to both protect him and help him protect the defence. You basically sort out nothing.
Hands down CB and RW are a bigger priority because it actually solves issues in the team structure defensively and offensively. Adding a midfielder, attacking rb or another center forward is just a luxury in comparison
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Hopefully not listen to Nicky Butt
If we club can deliver centre miss we will improve our double pivot, if not then we won't
Whatcha gonna do with all that junk
All that junk
In our midfield
All that junk
In our midfield
But Henry was never the player in Barcelona that got the reputation to the name. But yeah, you are right, the asymmetric formation with one attackminded FB and one CB like one was popular back then (still is somewhat looking at Bayern).
Not sure I understand what you mean with the first sentence? But I would confirm anything you stated here. Its still for me only half of the issue because what we have seen last season is that we were very very ponderous with the ball and it taking minutes to play the ball from one player to the next. I also see Sancho as the priority signing (but because he wants come and he is on the bucketlist plus seems to be scouted extensively) but just having him there will not necessarily lead to teams being stretched when we cannot move the ball through congested areas.
Additionally: I'd say we have a another player for the right side - DVB. As fas as I know, he played there for Ajax a couple of times, obviously more as a free 8 with a pretty wide starting position but that would be fine seeing that we are happy to deploy Pogba on the left there from time to time. Of course not the most ideal solution, but one I would have tried last season already to be honest.
No discussion about that.
Interesting standpoint, but that is what this forum should be about. I agree on the RW as bigger priority but again just because Sancho seems willing and scouted and has a skillset that we can benefit from greatly.
The bolded part: How can you be so sure, that we are consistently and comfortably in a high line. Even with a new CB, we don't know if Maguire will function in that. Same goes for Lindelof. So I think, this isn't a given just by adding a new player. 2nd: DVB as Pogba alternative - I don't see that. Until this day, DVB has shown absolutely nothing to suggest that he could be some sort of DLP. He hasn't got the passing range.
My take on it: I think, there isn't just one player to add to the squad to "finalize the puzzle". We have to identify a way of defending and a few ways to attack. We can improve by adding a CB or a midfielder but it won't be scenario of simply adding one and leave the rest doing what they usually do. It is way to obvious that we aren't good at making use of the ball and therefor opposition teams often compress the space to shut us down. This is the killer for our chance creation - having a great player on the right will help but it won't transform because even today, it takes two minutes for us to play the ball from one flank to the other. Add to the problem, that Bruno seemingly has the instruction to play the killerball as soon as possible, if we want to become more dominant, we have to become more patient and therefor more comfortable recycling the ball. A CB or a RW will not really help there.
Having someone like for example Locatelli would allow us to not play one of Fred and McTominay. A player like that makes sure we have the necessary workrate for the built up, the defensive stability in the middle of the park (not necessarily a specialized DM just somebody who can reliably do what McFred does) and the progressive and incisive passing to make us move the ball faster to challenge the opponent more.
I agree with you, a few of these things can be provided by a better CB as well but I don't see that having a great influence when trying to control the center. And, I am not sure I understand you correctly, I don't want to see Pogba in a double pivot anymore because he is a liability there. It is terrible we have no clarity regarding his status because making use of him requires a special setup that might not be necessary if he is gone anyway.
.
Great point it's true. Actually we did it once last season. The Fa cup vs Everton away. We were even brilliant on the day. It's strange we never tried it again to be honest.
Partner compatibility. Get in a player with speed complimentary to Maguire/ Lindeloff defensive style and it's literally a given.
Remember prime Rio and Vidic. Or even Terry and Gallas/Carvalho. Bonucci + Chielini. One slow one quick. One more aggressive and proactive one more of a sweeper. Yet together, they took care of what the other wasn't good at. As a result they could defend vs anyone as high as the half way line. Even behind two very attack minded midfielders if they so chose.
Besides. United don't operate a crazy high line like Bayern. But we do operate best with a higher line that we do currently. Because it disappears the "no man's land' between center halves and the midfield that enables opposition 10s to operate and inside out wingers like to cut into, critically cutting off a crucial part of any opposing team's attacking weapons and plans. It what makes sides like City and Pool (for example) bloody hard to play against when they defend that way
I think he hasn't been allowed to show it yet due to circumstances. He has yet to show all he was doing at Ajax because he is still getting used to his team mates. On another not, personally I liked how he performed when we used him deeper.
Personally I want the strict double pivot structure gone. I don't think it useful to the players we have. Our players are more suited to what we had when Keane/Butt paired with Scholes in our 1999 4-4-2.
It's why I believe if we sort out cb and rw. We will only need one guy to cover the center consistently meaning a Pogba/DVB and Pogba further up can operate more like box to box roamers. Helping out in defence but not being essential to it like a strict double pivot format. Or even we just go 4-3-3 with double 8s full time
I honestly believe if we want to stick to the double pivot format going forward were the deep lying pm must be essential to defending there isn't a point in keeping Pogba. We'd be better of reinvesting in a Locatelli or 2.
For We'd never be utlizing his best strengths to our advantage. Pogba is best when he can spring forward from the pivot to break the lines from time to time. Deschamps for France gets it. Alegri got it. Conte too..
And it not this myth people have created that he had no defensive responsibility at Juve or France (at Juve he and Marchisio/Vidal did all the defensive running for Pirlo in the diamond). It just that it wasn't restrictive. He didnt ever have to just sit next to a partner and keep it simple.
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Soumare would be a good start and with 1 year on his contract it looks like Leicester (yet again) likely to pull off a great bit of business. How is this guy not an option. Similarly...how was Tielemans not an option. Leicester really are brilliant in the market
Totally agree here. It seems like another uncontested run on very good player. Lets see how he fares with the Foxes. I am not sure, if we are really missing out because there isn't a wrong or right way to "fix our midfield". There are more potential ways and even though I personally agree, that a DM would be a very good squad addition to have, I'd also say there are ways to get by without one.
Interesting. I remember the Rio and Vidic combination more for their gracious-brutal contrast and/or their aggressive-containing style contrast than their speed difference. I understand your point, I think, there is a good chance to see if your hypothesis has substance when we add another CB to the team. I remain a bit concerned though because I think, even though the Bailly Maguire partnership wasn't the worst thing in the world, it wasn't light years and obvious that we just have to go for a better version of Bailly.
Another interesting observation. I agree, our high line certainly isn't as high as Bayerns even though they should hardly be a benchmark because they did it to an absurd level in the last two seasons. I'd add that the high line is just one piece of the puzzle if we want to defend on the front foot more. I always thought that our pressing, even when being very enthusiastic and motivated, didn't really feel all too structured or "planned". But you are right, it certainly is a problem of ours seeing Cavani and Bruno attack the opposition defenders just to see them overplayed and opponents having acres of space to work with because the gaps are too big.
(Just fyi: I consider that "no man's land" as the 2nd biggest midfield issue, I would focus first on the "further forward bermuda triangle" (there was a funny picture on the caf years ago, when we wanted a playmaker because our strikers played so high, the wingers so wide and the midfield so deep that we had absolutely noone facilitating play in the middle of the pitch)). I think, this is where a problem lies with Bruno, he either goes for hollywood pass from very deep, or he is almost as high as the strikers.)
Well, I feel that this is a lot of wishful thinking. Obviously we cannot know, what kind of traits Donny will be able to develop as a player but DVB hasn't showed a lot in terms of passing range. Not even at Ajax as far as I read. He is a multiplicator, someone who uses intelligent movement, good technique and first touch and fast short passing, which certainly isn't hurting as a kind of DLP but these days, these types of players usually come with very good long balls.
Do I understand you correctly - you would want to go back to a double pivot with two players who would be mostly considered as mostly box-to-box? Out of interest - how would you have your wingers work then?
I am sceptical, that this can work, I mean, the two-man-midfields didn't just go forgotten. it stopped working due to so many employing more people in the center... be that with 4-5-1, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or whatever. So not even bringing all the airy terms like system and philosophy into the discussion - first you would have to find a way to deal with the numerical disadvantage. Add to that, that our "wingers" are more like "wide forwards" and usually don't do the defensive work a David Beckham did back in the day.
Honestly I would applaud the boldness of us trying it because it isn't impossible to be working but my feeling is, these days are over. At least right now and for a foreseeable future.
I mean the latest move is Fullbacks moving into midfield to bolster numbers there, it would take a huge amount of adjusting to make a 2-man-midfield work. Especially for our team and our managing team. Again, I wouldn't be angry if we try but I think, it is very risky considering factors like numerical numbers and players(and youth players) not being suited for that anymore (just because a role like this isn't en vogue these days so nobody would go for it).
Yeah I always chuckle when I read, that Pirlo did the running for Pogba ^^. But yeah, I agree, it isn't the workrate part this is Pogbas issue (in my view) it is more the responsibility part. And him sitting with said responsibility just isn't his natural play. He obviously can do it but then you end up with a good player while he could be an awesome player when deployed more to his strength.
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Yeah, I’m inclined to agree.
Although I’m far from happy with the midfield, there are other positions that need attention and these are probably easier to do the right deals.
If Rice were available at sensible money I think he would make a big difference (and I’d be glad to see him with McT not instead of him). But Rice is a tough deal and expensive so we won’t buy him.
Id still love to get Grealish but chances of that are close to zero. I think the prospect of Hannibal coming through has made it even less likely.
We have some decent options. Unless Pogba bails, I think midfield will be left alone.
Interesting observation. I still feel the solution lies further back. If the team from behind can operate higher. The attacking midfielder who ever it is can always be that much closer to the front players consistently. Whilst bot ever being too far from the midfielders supporting him.
A higher defensive line I believe tends to lend to a more compact team. Which tends to enhance things like midfield control and passing options.
Yes. With our current resources I prefer a box to box pair in a double pivot. Or one who pushes up (Pogba) and one who sweeps up behind vertically (Fred/ Mctominay)
Otherwise. Just get rid of a Pogba and go for a traditional pivot with a DLP with defensive positioning and a roaming ball winner. Like Chelsea had with Matic -Kante. Which for us would be a DLP + Fred/mcTominay.