What is the solution to the problem of a flagging midfield losing control of the game in 2nd halves?

Fortitude

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It was obvious for some time before the goal that we were starting to flag and in serious need of a fix to the constant turnovers of possession in midfield. Understandably, ten Hag doesn't trust our bench and would rather leave the starters on until they're on fumes. That works some of the time, but at others, it looks like a failing of the manager when in reality, you can't legislate for the chasm in quality between our starting midfield and the bench options who may or may not simply make everything worse with their disparate ability.

Taking Casemiro off yesterday (or not starting him as some thought should have been the case) turns the midfield upside down. Even if his passing or retention drops a little, his positioning and innate ability to read and stuff out danger is not only top percentile in the world; it's the bar for others to meet. It's important in this discussion because there is no alternative in our squad to him. McTominay's ball-watching and unawareness when it comes to both positioning and preempting danger are arguably his worse traits, so not only do you go from the literal best in the world at these things, you drop below average in them when he isn't on the pitch. Allied to that, the competence in terms of short-passing and general nerve under pressure simply has no
recourse from our bench - fresh legs aren't more important than the ability to pass and use the ball, especially so if those fresh legs spend a fair amount of time accounting for their own mistakes. All this to say it's not constructive or conducive to seeing out games, particularly at the point in the game where pressure is intensifying and calmer heads with both skill and composure come to the fore.

I was left scratching my head as to what we could do to remedy the problem at least ten minutes before Casemiro's card and had no real answer. There's no point in making subs that exacerbate problems, so then you have to look at other areas of the pitch - say going long, or using the flanks i.e. some way to circumvent or dilute, but then, our right wing is in shambles currently and yesterday, Rashford wasn't having a good game on the left, nor is he a player you look to for control and ball retention, so the notion of condensing the midfield didn't really have any legs. Perhaps the answer is going long to the target man, relying on him to hold up play and work it wide? This bypasses the midfield and puts the onus on the opposition to counter the focal point ahead of them, at the same time, it provides deep-ball players the opportunity to diversify with their pass selection, simply playing the ball to the most open flank as whoever from the oppo finds themselves drawn into the vacuum of helping out against the big man.

The suggestions are numerous, but to me, they're flakey at best, which is why I can understand a manager not being sold on them. In your mind, what should we do the next time such a scenario as last night's presents itself? We've a tactical and personnel conundrum as far as I can see because using the same midfield over and over again is absolutely unsustainable, but the cover we currently have are of a standard where if things fall apart, you can hardly be surprised. Before anyone says I'm slating the cover, it's more a case of acknowledging just how good Casemiro is, as well as being aware that neither Eriksen or Bruno have direct replacements with anything like the passing attributes they do. Regardless of Bruno's flippancy in possession, he still has the ability to turn games in a flash, so there's logic in him staying on the pitch. Eriksen's passing massively goes to pot when he tires, like night and day difference, but even then, an exhausted Eriksen's passing is better than what could come on, right?

The anxiety toward ten Hag being slow with subs doesn't have that much merit to me when you can understand where he's coming from with the hesitancy. He doesn't trust the cover to be cover, for the most part, but then, neither do most of the forum despite utterance to the contrary (a lot of the same people then slaughter said cover for making mistakes) so where does that leave us? How can we maintain what are clearly fantastic standards from now until the end of the season in this predicament?
 

captaincantona

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It’s the flip side consequence of recruiting an excellent and experienced midfield in Eriksen and Casemiro. You gain composure and control but lose that bit of energy and stamina. Both have been completely and utterly overplayed due to the limitations of Our back up and the integral part each one plays in how we approach games.

Both are 30 and neither were high energy players in their prime. The premiere league is high high tempo with less technical sides compensating with super fit and high intensity players. Neither should be playing for 90 minutes twice a week but that’s what we are asking of them. That’s why this summer window is important. That’s why the patience of the fans is important. We can see what ETH can do with the right materials. New owner, support the gaffer, get in the right deputies. Give our two wonderful midfielders a deserved rest…then watch us control games for 90 minutes.

It’s exciting - but the manager needs backing.
 

Ish

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It was obvious for some time before the goal that we were starting to flag and in serious need of a fix to the constant turnovers of possession in midfield. Understandably, ten Hag doesn't trust our bench and would rather leave the starters on until they're on fumes. That works some of the time, but at others, it looks like a failing of the manager when in reality, you can't legislate for the chasm in quality between our starting midfield and the bench options who may or may not simply make everything worse with their disparate ability.

Taking Casemiro off yesterday (or not starting him as some thought should have been the case) turns the midfield upside down. Even if his passing or retention drops a little, his positioning and innate ability to read and stuff out danger is not only top percentile in the world; it's the bar for others to meet. It's important in this discussion because there is no alternative in our squad to him. McTominay's ball-watching and unawareness when it comes to both positioning and preempting danger are arguably his worse traits, so not only do you go from the literal best in the world at these things, you drop below average in them when he isn't on the pitch. Allied to that, the competence in terms of short-passing and general nerve under pressure simply has no
recourse from our bench - fresh legs aren't more important than the ability to pass and use the ball, especially so if those fresh legs spend a fair amount of time accounting for their own mistakes. All this to say it's not constructive or conducive to seeing out games, particularly at the point in the game where pressure is intensifying and calmer heads with both skill and composure come to the fore.

I was left scratching my head as to what we could do to remedy the problem at least ten minutes before Casemiro's card and had no real answer. There's no point in making subs that exacerbate problems, so then you have to look at other areas of the pitch - say going long, or using the flanks i.e. some way to circumvent or dilute, but then, our right wing is in shambles currently and yesterday, Rashford wasn't having a good game on the left, nor is he a player you look to for control and ball retention, so the notion of condensing the midfield didn't really have any legs. Perhaps the answer is going long to the target man, relying on him to hold up play and work it wide? This bypasses the midfield and puts the onus on the opposition to counter the focal point ahead of them, at the same time, it provides deep-ball players the opportunity to diversify with their pass selection, simply playing the ball to the most open flank as whoever from the oppo finds themselves drawn into the vacuum of helping out against the big man.

The suggestions are numerous, but to me, they're flakey at best, which is why I can understand a manager not being sold on them. In your mind, what should we do the next time such a scenario as last night's presents itself? We've a tactical and personnel conundrum as far as I can see because using the same midfield over and over again is absolutely unsustainable, but the cover we currently have are of a standard where if things fall apart, you can hardly be surprised. Before anyone says I'm slating the cover, it's more a case of acknowledging just how good Casemiro is, as well as being aware that neither Eriksen or Bruno have direct replacements with anything like the passing attributes they do. Regardless of Bruno's flippancy in possession, he still has the ability to turn games in a flash, so there's logic in him staying on the pitch. Eriksen's passing massively goes to pot when he tires, like night and day difference, but even then, an exhausted Eriksen's passing is better than what could come on, right?

The anxiety toward ten Hag being slow with subs doesn't have that much merit to me when you can understand where he's coming from with the hesitancy. He doesn't trust the cover to be cover, for the most part, but then, neither do most of the forum despite utterance to the contrary (a lot of the same people then slaughter said cover for making mistakes) so where does that leave us? How can we maintain what are clearly fantastic standards from now until the end of the season in this predicament?
Yeah that last bit makes sense. Our starting midfield doesn't have the legs to last the 90 (especially Eriksen) but once they're subbed off, there's a huge drop off in quality - especially with keeping the ball. It's probably why he was so adamant for FdJ or that type of player who can carry the ball through midfield/keep it under pressure and is young enough to last the full 90. Unless we start using other youth midfielders more (they're probably not ready yet), i don't see the immediate solution outside of waiting for next summer when we have money to spend and hopefully enough of it for a striker and a CM.

The other quick fix solution is acting quick and selling off some non-starters (McT, Maguire etc.) with a little value and try and sign someone like Tielemans (or whichever other target could improve our "bench") during this window....but i think it's too late for all that activity during this window.
 

bond19821982

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Get able back ups.

City would have subbed in Gundagon, Foden, Philips, Alvarez.
 

BluesJr

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I also think the team is still pretty brainless and is unable to sense when momentum for the other team is picking up. Last night was begging for a bunch of passing around the back and beating their silly little press. Instead a dumb ball gets put into Casemiro, he plays a dumb pass to Bruno who chickens out and Casemiro picks up a potentially season defining yellow card. From that moment the team lost all composure and the equaliser was just typical wondergoal bullshit that always seems to happen in those situations.
 

Chairman Steve

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Suitable backups who can be trusted I suppose. I get the feeling the low energy shown particularly in the second half was us having one eye on the Arsenal game. We were passing it around defence and midfield a lot in the second half and barely made inroads to attacking. It was probably done under instructions.
 

redshaw

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Might be a bit drastic but for last night he could've moved Shaw to CB and move Lisandro to midfield and sub on a fullback.
 

sullydnl

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The only answer is better quality and better depth. Without that you're relying on unreliable players to perform well and there's only so much you can do with that tactically.

It isn't just about midfield either. A back five who are better on the ball and an attack who are better able to both keep keep possession and pressure the opponents will help us keep control too. As would killing games earlier by scoring enough goals. Lots of little improvements make a big difference.
 

captaincantona

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I also think the team is still pretty brainless and is unable to sense when momentum for the other team is picking up. Last night was begging for a bunch of passing around the back and beating their silly little press. Instead a dumb ball gets put into Casemiro, he plays a dumb pass to Bruno who chickens out and Casemiro picks up a potentially season defining yellow card. From that moment the team lost all composure and the equaliser was just typical wondergoal bullshit that always seems to happen in those situations.
We are talking fine margins…if one of those “dumb balls” comes off we are up 2-0…the game opens up and we possibly run out easy winners - ETH and our midfield are geniuses etc.

1-0 is an awful lead to have against any decent side. Last night didn’t go our way but it wasn’t down to game management or dumb play…we were bolloxed.
 

DWelbz19

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Yeah, there's nothing more we can do than signing a no.8 or a no.10 who actually takes care on the ball. Our midfield 3 play hot potato high risk high reward football with the ball, and the replacements (Fred - kind of does more of the same; McTominay - doesn't want the ball at all) are no help.

This season in the PL per 90:
  • Bruno Fernandes passing accuracy - 74%;
  • Christian Eriksen - 79.4%
  • Casemiro 77.7%
There's no surprise that we play quite reactive counter-attacking football so heavily; our personnel just doesn't suit totally controlling the football.
 

Glorio

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I think it's a combo of a flagging target man and a flagging midfield with no like-for-like replacement. I feel the drop off in control is so steep because of these. We need another specialist DM and another option as a central striker.

Neither McTom or Fred are DMs, and while anyone may struggle to find anyone close to Case, a lesser option which plays and understands the role would be great. Fred in particular next to a DM is a very capable player.

Same applies to the forward line. Rashford isn't a target man, and Bruno isn't a RW. A whole reshuffle happens here when a target man goes off which just means everyone is less effective.

Unsure why we insist on doing it when Antony goes off as well as I feel we have potential like-for-like players for the flanks in Garnacho and Pellistri; at CF though, until Martial is back fit and firing, it's a gap
 

poleglass red

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It goes back even as far as the Chelsea game, we dominated the opening 30 mins and then they took, I think Cucurella of, and brought on Kovacic, and we lost the control we had in the game. As someone else mentioned, the experience we have, can come at the expense of energy, especially in the 2nd half. Another of our strengths is how quick we are in transition, when it works it so effective, but we know that Rashford and Bruno can both cough up possession a lot of the times as well.
 

Rossa

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Fix for Arsenal could be to play Martinez either as a 3rd centre back or to play him as a DM with Shaw as CB and Malacia as LB. We cannot use McTominay in that position. He's terrible as a DM but passable as an 8.
 

Borys

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It seems like we switch a toggle when starting second half. I am not sure if that is down to Casemiro and Eriksen (in particular). I think there's something wrong with the shape.

The patterns is we clearly look better with a target man who can hold the ball, and we also look worse once Bruno moves to the right.
 

acnumber9

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We know what isn’t the solution. Bringing on McTominay and moving Bruno out wide. It’s never not made us worse.
 

rooney2009

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We’ve played so many games in a short space of time so they were are bound to get tired
We need a bigger squad but we need to be able to kill games off as well when we are top so we can coast for the rest of the game
 

BluesJr

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We are talking fine margins…if one of those “dumb balls” comes off we are up 2-0…the game opens up and we possibly run out easy winners - ETH and our midfield are geniuses etc.

1-0 is an awful lead to have against any decent side. Last night didn’t go our way but it wasn’t down to game management or dumb play…we were bolloxed.
Dumb balls don’t come off though that’s why they are dumb. You are always in control of your destiny if you do your job properly in football. The players don’t execute things well enough in those moments where the pressure is on.
 

bosnian_red

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Its football, no team dominates for 90 minutes, everyone has a wobble for a brief spell. We've done remarkably well defensively to restrict shots against, (just 8.78 xGagainst in 11 games since Casemiro has been a starter, which is the best in the league. Also have the most xPts, and 3rd in xG but it's tight at the top). The solution is simply to score more goals where by the time the wobble happens, that the game is already won. To already have the 2-0 lead by the hour mark so that we don't have the panic period. Games like Leicester, Southampton, West Ham, Wolves and Palace, games where with a top striker we would have scored more than just the 1 goal. We did well to win 4 of those (deserved to win them all of course, but if you only score 1, you are bound to have screamers against you now and then), but a better striker and we simply get the 2nd goal earlier in the game and sometimes go on to score 4, whereas now we hang on to the 1-0 in the dying minutes and encourage the opposition.
 

Idxomer

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Need a better and younger midfielder than Eriksen and to start subbing Bruno when he's playing as he did in the 2nd half.
 

Jim Beam

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Yeah, there's nothing more we can do than signing a no.8 or a no.10 who actually takes care on the ball. Our midfield 3 play hot potato high risk high reward football with the ball, and the replacements (Fred - kind of does more of the same; McTominay - doesn't want the ball at all) are no help.

This season in the PL per 90:
  • Bruno Fernandes passing accuracy - 74%;
  • Christian Eriksen - 79.4%
  • Casemiro 77.7%
There's no surprise that we play quite reactive counter-attacking football so heavily; our personnel just doesn't suit totally controlling the football.
Aye, this. The problem becomes even more visable once Eriksen gets tired or goes to the bench. It is no wonder ten Hag was so hell-bent on De Jong for the whole summer.
 

Grande

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I think the OP makes some valid and important points.To me it’s not so much the drop in general quality (if you have players like Eriksen and Casemiro, the replacements are not going to be as good), but even more so the drop in specific competencies that are ao core to how Ten Hag builds his game around: Casemiro’s reading of defensive play, and first pass options, and Eriksen’s overview, decisions and technique to play short and long passes precisely and at the right time - it’s exactly what neither Fred, McTom nor Bruno has, and without it, Ten Hags quick, vertical possession play turns either into harmless Van Gaal circulation or double edged Solskjær direct football with loss of possesion in dangerous phases and incohesive play.

Yeaterday, Casemiro was sound defensively, but his passing made McTominay look like Pirlo, it was highly uncharacteristic, and has to make you think that playing City, Palace And Arsenal in a week taxes the capacity too much at some point.

Another problem was that Three days after the City exertion, key players Casemiro, Bruno and Rashford all playing way below par at the same time is no coincidence and would hurt any team in the world. Peak City can afford such stuff and still win consistently away in the PL, noone else. Yesterday the back five and Eriksen to me did very well, but attacks kept breaking down. If we had fit Martial, in-form Antony or peak Sancho there as well, we’d probably have won regardless - hell, having McTom in there should have been enough even to earn us a PK for 2-0, and the equalizer will go in one time in twenty, max. But in the long run, we need a few better fits as back up to keep this up.
I won’t be surprised if we run into a steam of frustrating draws and narrow losses at some point this season, and CL qualification is still the reasonable yardstick at this point. But we need something more in MF and in attack to achieve better consistency within games, clearly.
 

The_Order

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Wish we'd given the likes of Iqbal more game time especially with the upcoming congestion of fixtures.
 

3KDré

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We really just need someone like Eriksen to be a bench player. He's a good player, don't get me wrong, but if we had someone younger and more mobile than him in his ilk then we wouldn't have to play him so much and we could bring Eriksen on to slow things down.
 

Teja

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I think this is partly intentional from Ten Hag. We rode our luck many times after going 1-0 up and stopping the high press and trying to play on the break. (e.g., Everton, West Ham, Wolves etc. if memory serves)

Yesterday was the odd one out where they didn't really create much and yet got a point out of it. We really should've won on a different day (if the pen call went our way or we were more clinical on the break).

Obviously the diagnosis is right - more quality in midfield + depth. We drop off pretty quick from our first choice midfield pairing of Casemiro + Eriksen.
 

Shane88

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Easily solved. Have the squad berate Bruno until he stops passing like he is messing around on the all-weather.
 

The_Order

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We really just need someone like Eriksen to be a bench player. He's a good player, don't get me wrong, but if we had someone younger and more mobile than him in his ilk then we wouldn't have to play him so much and we could bring Eriksen on to slow things down.
I think he's class.

But man is he lightweight.

Lacks pace, aggression and physicality which are massive requirements for this league.
 

bond19821982

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Might be a bit drastic but for last night he could've moved Shaw to CB and move Lisandro to midfield and sub on a fullback.
Or go for a 3 man defence. Don't make it complicated. Bring Harry or Malacia on . Bring some energy .
 

mu4c_20le

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Easily solved. Have the squad berate Bruno until he stops passing like he is messing around on the all-weather.
What? It was Shaw's foul that led to the late free kick. Bruno was the best player on the pitch. Besides, 9 times out of 10 that free kick hits the bar, or goes over. We didn't lose control in the second half, we didn't give up many chances and were minutes away from seeing out a game, like we've done thousands of times under SAF.
 

Valencia Shin Crosses

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You buy more players. Seriously, ETH did everything he could to bring in more technicality last summer but we basically had none before then so there isn't any player sitting on the bench that you can bring on to add a semblance of ball retention and crisp passing. It's why I thought our fans were stupid to get caught up in a "title challenge" whirlwind when we basically have a single starting XI that can go toe to toe with the top sides, and have no answers in certain positions if any of those players have to come out.

Not having a Bruno replacement has hurt us for years, he's constantly having to play every match (valid, he stays fit and is vital to the makeup of the current side) but you don't have anyone to replace him if he's having a shit day or push him as competition. Yesterday would have been a perfect time after he starting getting tired and fecking about in the 70th minute to bring him off and add fresh legs in front of the other two mids. Likewise with Eriksen, who we all love and is class but simply grows tired if he has to play end to end for 90 minutes.
 

Baneofthegame

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I think he's class.

But man is he lightweight.

Lacks pace, aggression and physicality which are massive requirements for this league.
I mean Eriksen a first half kept up and defended Zaha, for a 31 yr old who's not really known for his pace it was outrageous.

To the question, our bench depth outside of the 1st team is awful.
 

NZT-One

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A few good points already collected in the thread. I would want to add another (potential) one to the other more "our team" centered thoughts: I think, we have to accept, that apart from everything we do wrong in terms of individual mistakes, fatigue also our opponents we be better prepared to face us down the road. It is of course only one of many factors but what we are seeing is the beginning of what we have seen recently under Ole as well after around half a year. Opponents will notice that United is doing well on the counter and they will try to prevent that matchplan by getting deeper themselves, not offering as much room to us. This broke Ole's approach back then but with ETH we at least aren't as vulnerable to opposition counters than we were under Ole. ETH will have to adapt to that, but I am positive about him at least being capable of coming up with ideas.

For the match yesterday, I was a bit puzzled by what I perceived as inconsequential actions. I think, it is fine to secure a lead and trying to lure the opponents onto you. Especially when this is your primary strength. What I don't understand though, is why this requires Eriksen AND Bruno to be on the pitch for 70 minutes. Eriksen could have been replaced way earlier, manager could have gone to a 4-4-1-1 oder even a 4-1-4-1 structure that makes sure, Bruno stays where he can do the most damage for right team... There isn't anything preventing us from playing Shaw and Malacia in front of each other. Obviously that shouldn't be plan A, but once that is out of the window (which it seemed after HT anyways) and the settings is favoring you (United strong at countering, having the lead) just be consequential. Clutter the center of the pitch with defenders, as long as leave Bruno and Rashford on and make sure that Fred is there to make the miles it should be fine to pose a threat.

Matches like yesterday are the worst... If you are setting up with your best team, please go for a sure kill. There's just no point trying to defend a one goal lead away from home. And if this seems to be your only viable solution, at least change the team accordingly.