What is the solution to the problem of a flagging midfield losing control of the game in 2nd halves?

croadyman

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It goes back even as far as the Chelsea game, we dominated the opening 30 mins and then they took, I think Cucurella of, and brought on Kovacic, and we lost the control we had in the game. As someone else mentioned, the experience we have, can come at the expense of energy, especially in the 2nd half. Another of our strengths is how quick we are in transition, when it works it so effective, but we know that Rashford and Bruno can both cough up possession a lot of the times as well.
Yeah that Chelsea game should have been the point where penny dropped
 

dinostar77

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We need leicester to go down so we can get ndidi, tielemans and maddison on the cheap. Good solid backups for casemiro, eriksen and fernandes.
 

croadyman

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We need someone who can control things in the middle and a predatory striker with that killer instinct too. I am so angry we are putting in such shabby second half showings most games.
 

Lyng

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Our big issue isnt really lack of pace but rather lack of control and composure.
Everytime we lose a striker that can pressure and keep things clean in the hold up play like Martial or actually Wout as well we become erratic.
This suddenly moves much more pressure on our midfield. Eriksen is very intelligent and composed but he lacks physicality and isnt press resistant.
So moving even more pressure on him is a huge problem.
Rashford isnt the type of striker that does well with his back turned to goal and his pressing is severely lacking. Bruno is very good at the defensive side but his passing is often to direct when we need control. He will often seek out the difficult direct pass instead of the more simple and often intelligent solution.

A player like De Jong who is extremely press resistant and at the same time can break lines with intelligent passes would be a massive help for us.
It would also mean we free up Eriksen to move to the AM position in games where we need a different kind of AM then what Bruno offers.
This combined with a striker that combines the pressing of Wout with a bit more pace and more of a goalthreat and we would look much better.
 

Big Andy

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It’s the flip side consequence of recruiting an excellent and experienced midfield in Eriksen and Casemiro. You gain composure and control but lose that bit of energy and stamina. Both have been completely and utterly overplayed due to the limitations of Our back up and the integral part each one plays in how we approach games.

Both are 30 and neither were high energy players in their prime. The premiere league is high high tempo with less technical sides compensating with super fit and high intensity players. Neither should be playing for 90 minutes twice a week but that’s what we are asking of them. That’s why this summer window is important. That’s why the patience of the fans is important. We can see what ETH can do with the right materials. New owner, support the gaffer, get in the right deputies. Give our two wonderful midfielders a deserved rest…then watch us control games for 90 minutes.

It’s exciting - but the manager needs backing.
30 is slap bang in the middle of their "Prime".
 

Ramshock

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It was obvious for some time before the goal that we were starting to flag and in serious need of a fix to the constant turnovers of possession in midfield. Understandably, ten Hag doesn't trust our bench and would rather leave the starters on until they're on fumes. That works some of the time, but at others, it looks like a failing of the manager when in reality, you can't legislate for the chasm in quality between our starting midfield and the bench options who may or may not simply make everything worse with their disparate ability.

Taking Casemiro off yesterday (or not starting him as some thought should have been the case) turns the midfield upside down. Even if his passing or retention drops a little, his positioning and innate ability to read and stuff out danger is not only top percentile in the world; it's the bar for others to meet. It's important in this discussion because there is no alternative in our squad to him. McTominay's ball-watching and unawareness when it comes to both positioning and preempting danger are arguably his worse traits, so not only do you go from the literal best in the world at these things, you drop below average in them when he isn't on the pitch. Allied to that, the competence in terms of short-passing and general nerve under pressure simply has no
recourse from our bench - fresh legs aren't more important than the ability to pass and use the ball, especially so if those fresh legs spend a fair amount of time accounting for their own mistakes. All this to say it's not constructive or conducive to seeing out games, particularly at the point in the game where pressure is intensifying and calmer heads with both skill and composure come to the fore.

I was left scratching my head as to what we could do to remedy the problem at least ten minutes before Casemiro's card and had no real answer. There's no point in making subs that exacerbate problems, so then you have to look at other areas of the pitch - say going long, or using the flanks i.e. some way to circumvent or dilute, but then, our right wing is in shambles currently and yesterday, Rashford wasn't having a good game on the left, nor is he a player you look to for control and ball retention, so the notion of condensing the midfield didn't really have any legs. Perhaps the answer is going long to the target man, relying on him to hold up play and work it wide? This bypasses the midfield and puts the onus on the opposition to counter the focal point ahead of them, at the same time, it provides deep-ball players the opportunity to diversify with their pass selection, simply playing the ball to the most open flank as whoever from the oppo finds themselves drawn into the vacuum of helping out against the big man.

The suggestions are numerous, but to me, they're flakey at best, which is why I can understand a manager not being sold on them. In your mind, what should we do the next time such a scenario as last night's presents itself? We've a tactical and personnel conundrum as far as I can see because using the same midfield over and over again is absolutely unsustainable, but the cover we currently have are of a standard where if things fall apart, you can hardly be surprised. Before anyone says I'm slating the cover, it's more a case of acknowledging just how good Casemiro is, as well as being aware that neither Eriksen or Bruno have direct replacements with anything like the passing attributes they do. Regardless of Bruno's flippancy in possession, he still has the ability to turn games in a flash, so there's logic in him staying on the pitch. Eriksen's passing massively goes to pot when he tires, like night and day difference, but even then, an exhausted Eriksen's passing is better than what could come on, right?

The anxiety toward ten Hag being slow with subs doesn't have that much merit to me when you can understand where he's coming from with the hesitancy. He doesn't trust the cover to be cover, for the most part, but then, neither do most of the forum despite utterance to the contrary (a lot of the same people then slaughter said cover for making mistakes) so where does that leave us? How can we maintain what are clearly fantastic standards from now until the end of the season in this predicament?
More good midfielders mate its not rocket surgery.
 

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We need a Modrić type of player who can control the ball better and dictate play along with being good defensively too. Someone who'll jump in for Eriksen or Eriksen will be his backup or play closer to goal. Eriksen dictate plays and his passing is good but drops in 2nd half usually and defensively opponents pass him by too easily. Also we might get a backup to Casemiro along the way or that new player will be his backup too, jack of all trades if you will. Casemiro is not important just for his defensive work but for his passing too.
 

yamo123x

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We are never gonna control games when you have the likes of Bruno and Rashford, who lose the ball at an alarming rate. Both contribute massively to our great recent run but are so wasteful in possession.

Eriksen is doing well but we do need another midfield option that can add element of calm, and it is not MCT
 

Solius

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Makes it even more obvious as to why Erik wanted FDJ.
 

Fortitude

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More good midfielders mate its not rocket surgery.
In the long term, sure, but the issue is that doesn't help us for the remainder of this season. Pretty sure we'll see no activity between now and the end of the window and then we're left fighting over four competitions with a rotation that isn't trusted and quite clearly reduces the quality of play by to a massive degree.

It jeopardises all the work done up to now if we can't see out games/the season and that would be a real shame as our starters are clearly on to something and arguably have us in a title race.
 

Smores

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There's always this inward view that when the dynamic of a game changes it must be our fault. Most of the time its just the other team stepping up and taking greater risks. When the other team does that you're not going to maintain control.

Even when we had Carrick and Scholes dictating the centre it was still difficult to maintain control once the other team needed a goal or put more bodies in midfield.

If your attacking play is dangerous enough then not only will you peg a team back but you'll finish off the game. Thats our biggest issue right now, we just don't create enough chances.

Personally I'd switch to a 352 more often and let Rashford and Garnacho take advantage of the space created. We've players capable of playing those long balls in behind.
 

captaincantona

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30 is slap bang in the middle of their "Prime".
Not fitness wise and when you have players who were not known for their energy in the first place, to ask them to play pretty much 180 minutes a week is going to result in what we are seeing now. Fatigue.

They are being kept on the pitch for full games more often than not because we simply don’t have the quality to maintain the same levels without them.
 

poleglass red

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When was last time Lisandro played in midfield ? Why is he considered as an option there by some ?
very simple, Casemiro isn't playing,so we lose his presence in the middle.Many are concerned about possibly playing McFred in there, especially considering how poor McT looked in the last game. Many are thinking out loud, since Shaw has played so well recently at central defence, maybe Martinez's physicality and his passing might negate the absence of Casemiro in central mid. You asked when was the last time Lisandro played in midfield, until 3 games or so when did Shaw ever play centre half. With a squad as thin is ours, it might come down to asking players to cover positions they normally don't play. Antony played centre forward for a period at start of 2nd half v City. Bruno's best postion is number 10, but recently he has been covering the wings when needed. ETH has shown he can be flexible in that regard.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Zombie passing. I believe the question was about the here & the now and not what can be done in the next transfer window. I wouldn't mind a bit of time-wasting, either. It's Newcastle's greatest strength this season.

I know you are laughing but it did the job during Fergie's latter years and it has also been a key ingredient for Klopp's sides whenever they managed to push all the way for the big prizes. When you have neither the midfield nor the forwards to instil a possession-based game, but you're better suited to quick transitions, there's only so much you can do.

The point is that it doesn't have to be pretty. Not all sides can field a midfield that consists of Modric and Kroos, plus Guardiola's prominence in the last 15 years has created unrealistic expectations when the discussion comes to what "controlling the game" means.

Taking last night as an example, conceding possession and dropping a few yards deeper, when you're a goal up against an inferior side, isn't exactly the worst thing that can happen to you in a football game. The defensive line is good, we know they can protect a lead. It's not the lack of legs to match CP's intensity that killed us so much as our inability to slow things down. We continued to play an end-to-end game when it only benefited CP.

With that in mind, you try to find a remedy for the reasons why you start to fall apart. There's two: The energy levels to defend man-to-man and force turnovers aren't sufficient and you start losing the second balls. ETH has shown great levels of adaptability, he can find a way around the problem. The thing with subbing off a winger to bring on an extra central midfielder and shove Bruno to the right, while being a clear admission of the problem, it doesn't offer a solution. It comes to the point where every pass is intended to get someone in front of goal. I understand why he wants to keep Bruno on the pitch. I also understand why he's reluctant to take Eriksen off until the last 20 minutes. His goal will always be to create overloads in the half-spaces. And the goal of his pressing will always be to play direct. For that to happen, the first pass when you regain possession has to be a clever one through the lines. The kind of pass Fred and McT can't give us consistently. In a different tactical context, it's similar to the times when SAF would always prefer a lightweight midfield that could pass the ball adequately over grafters. It's like shooting yourself in the foot. On the other hand, you can't constantly be playing the high risk-high reward passes when you don't have the legs to back it up. You can concede a few yards, but you can't allow your opponent to decide the tempo of the game.

If i'm not wrong, ETH's not exactly married to the 316 shape (when we are in possession) that he's trying to instil. He has also used Blind's ability to play as a LB, LCB and as a midfielder to utilize a 235 that's slightly less adventurous. I don't think it would be a bad idea to move our FBs more centrally to help Casemiro with covering the spaces between the lines and winning the second balls. It will also allow Eriksen and Bruno more breathing room. If the ship is still leaking, we could keep Bruno in the side and bring an extra CB for a forward/winger, which can potentially bring Martinez a bit further up the pitch (in the attacking shape) and Shaw covering the left side. Basically, a 352/361 system when we defend. That's enough protection.

But, basically, secure possession even if it bores the hell out of everyone. It's what Klopp was forced to do in England. It's what Bielsa never admitted he has to do. I hope that pissing away a two goal advantage within the space of a few minutes and missing out on a CL final is already a sufficient lesson.
 
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bond19821982

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Did Pep sub in Gundagon when City was 2-1 down? Get real. All have similar problem, just in different position.
He would have if Lloris didn't gift them 2 goals. OMG - what an analogy.
 

M Bison

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I dont agree that its an age issue, Casemiro and Eriksen are in their prime of a modern footballer, but they need support and options. I think it starts with our forward players, we had very little in the final 3rd to hit and/or hold it up and allow us to get up the pitch which then puts more pressure on the midfield.
 

KikiDaKats

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Simple the ball doesn’t stick with our front 4 players bar Martial, who barely plays.
Casemeiro and Eriksen do play for control, we just never drop the pace for them to catch their breathe. Even a 12 yr old CM will be knackered after 60mins.
 

MadDogg

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Remember reading when we tried to sign him that he played in midfield sometimes for Ajax.
I believe he played there in his first season at Ajax. ETH then moved him back into defence and said something along the lines of 'Martinez doesn't have the athleticism to play in midfield'. If ETH felt he struggled in that sense in the Eredivisie, I highly doubt he sees him as a good option in the Premier League.
 

Puskas_007

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Might be a bit drastic but for last night he could've moved Shaw to CB and move Lisandro to midfield and sub on a fullback.
That is an excellent shout! Lisandro wouldn't have the same influence forwards but he would definitely have covered the defensive side of the role.
 

sifi36

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I’m of the opinion that it’s more to do with our profligate finishing (our performance against xG is the worst in the top 9) and not-quite-there-yet chance creation (closer to Brighton than Arsenal, City and Liverpool).

If for example, we’d scored the second our play deserved in the first half against Fulham, the second half is much easier to manage. At 0-1 or 0-0, opposing teams take more risk than at 2-0; conceding a goal at 2-0 breaks the opponent making them way less aggressive as well as reducing morale more than a 0-1 score line might. It only takes a corner or two, a good dribble or tackle to get the players and crowd going when the deficit is only 1, especially away from home.

Wolves, Chelsea and Palace are examples, where despite decent control at times, we struggled to create clear-cut chances.

Signing a striker and a cm that can make Eriksen a sub at 60 minutes player, instead of a starter is the key, in my view.
 

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I’m of the opinion that it’s more to do with our profligate finishing (our performance against xG is the worst in the top 9) and not-quite-there-yet chance creation (closer to Brighton than Arsenal, City and Liverpool).

If for example, we’d scored the second our play deserved in the first half against Fulham, the second half is much easier to manage. At 0-1 or 0-0, opposing teams take more risk than at 2-0; conceding a goal at 2-0 breaks the opponent making them way less aggressive as well as reducing morale more than a 0-1 score line might. It only takes a corner or two, a good dribble or tackle to get the players and crowd going when the deficit is only 1, especially away from home.

Wolves, Chelsea and Palace are examples, where despite decent control at times, we struggled to create clear-cut chances.

Signing a striker and a cm that can make Eriksen a sub at 60 minutes player, instead of a starter is the key, in my view.
Agree with this. Lack of goals (30 to City's 50) will eventually catch up with you and turn 1-0 leads into 1-1 draws.
 

kouroux

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very simple, Casemiro isn't playing,so we lose his presence in the middle.Many are concerned about possibly playing McFred in there, especially considering how poor McT looked in the last game. Many are thinking out loud, since Shaw has played so well recently at central defence, maybe Martinez's physicality and his passing might negate the absence of Casemiro in central mid. You asked when was the last time Lisandro played in midfield, until 3 games or so when did Shaw ever play centre half. With a squad as thin is ours, it might come down to asking players to cover positions they normally don't play. Antony played centre forward for a period at start of 2nd half v City. Bruno's best postion is number 10, but recently he has been covering the wings when needed. ETH has shown he can be flexible in that regard.
The transition from LB to LCB and CB to DM is completely different. Besides just because Shaw can do it so well, doesn't mean Lisandro can still do it well.
 

Ceteris

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If Mcsauce cannot start against crystal palace so we didn't have to risk Casemiro but was risked anyway then it's time we sell him.

I've seen some fans rejecting tielemans from Leicester because he doesn't work hard enough, Rashford wasn't tracking back just last season but look at him now

The manager can get him working hard, he could have come on for Eriksen and helped control the game.

Hopefully the next two transfers will help us recruit decent covers for Casemiro, Eriksen
 

adexkola

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Emphasize ball retention in training?

I can't remember the game, it was someone playing against Chelsea. Chelsea were ahead, and brought on Jorginho with 8 minutes remaining. That unofficially ended the game, because the other team couldn't get the ball off of Chelsea with Jorginho in the midfield.

Now we don't have that metronome currently, but in training EtH can look to implement simple shit like rondo exercises. Just have the midfield and defense participate. No team can press/chase the ball endlessly for 15 minutes. Retain the ball and pass to take the sting out of a desperate opposition, and give your midfielders some rest.

And no this is not tiki-taka. If the opponent overcommits to the press find the open man and look to create a chance.
 

croadyman

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Emphasize ball retention in training?

I can't remember the game, it was someone playing against Chelsea. Chelsea were ahead, and brought on Jorginho with 8 minutes remaining. That unofficially ended the game, because the other team couldn't get the ball off of Chelsea with Jorginho in the midfield.

Now we don't have that metronome currently, but in training EtH can look to implement simple shit like rondo exercises. Just have the midfield and defense participate. No team can press/chase the ball endlessly for 15 minutes. Retain the ball and pass to take the sting out of a desperate opposition, and give your midfielders some rest.

And no this is not tiki-taka. If the opponent overcommits to the press find the open man and look to create a chance.
Yeah our ball retention needs to improve particularly in second half or we will start dropping more points at home like we have away
 
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croadyman

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Simple as this. It's painfully obvious that Eriksen is usually gassed by the 60 minute mark.
Don't know why we didn't go for Tielemans at least to give us something until end of season. Unfortunately window is going to shut with poor Christian gassing after an hour
 

Blood Mage

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...buy better players? Eriksen is a fading force and McFred/VDB aren't good enough. Casemiro can't do it all by himself every game. Some fans are acting like our midfield is fixed but take Casemiro out and it's not a top 6 midfield.
 

croadyman

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...buy better players? Eriksen is a fading force and McFred/VDB aren't good enough. Casemiro can't do it all by himself every game. Some fans are acting like our midfield is fixed but take Casemiro out and it's not a top 6 midfield.
Sign a hybrid type like Casa in the summer OR sign pure CDM and progressive CM instead?
 

Red in STL

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There's a simple solution, kill teams off in the first half
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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I think Eriksen struggles to keep going at high intensity for 90 minutes and the players we have to replace him aren’t that good.