What midfielder is suited to partner Bruno in the double pivot?

romufc said:
Bruno covers the most ground in our team, are you talking about strength or athleticism?

We have not spent 120m on Bruno's replacements... it was obvious last season that Amorim didn't see Bruno as a 10... he wants players that can get the ball back to goal. We are replacing Garnacho, Rashford, Anthony, Mount etc... in the 10.

Also... we dont need 5 players back when we attack... no team has that many.
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Bruno lacks strength and pace to get back into position and given his natural instincts that's a huge weakness to have. I am willing to see how his conversion to CM will pan out but we need to plan for the drawbacks having him in midfield will bring.
 
AneRu said:
Bruno lacks strength and pace to get back into position and given his natural instincts that's a huge weakness to have. I am willing to see how his conversion to CM will pan out but we need to plan for the drawbacks having him in midfield will bring.
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Why do we need 2 defensive midfielders when we have 3 CB's behind?
 
romufc said:
Why do we need 2 defensive midfielders when we have 3 CB's behind?
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I am not saying we need 2 DMs we just need a better version of Casemiro (younger and more technical) and Ugarte (more technical and more athletic) so that when they play in a 2 with Bruno they are better placed to cover for him in transitions. A 25 year old Casemiro would do.
 
AneRu said:
I am not saying we need 2 DMs we just need a better version of Casemiro (younger and more technical) and Ugarte (more technical and more athletic) so that when they play in a 2 with Bruno they are better placed to cover for him in transitions. A 25 year old Casemiro would do.
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The issue we have is that we have Casemiro, Ugarte, Bruno, Mainoo to cover 4 positions... so we really need to make room to bring players in and it will probably next season when Casemiro leaves.

We will probably also end up selling Ugarte next season if he has another poor one.
 
romufc said:
The issue we have is that we have Casemiro, Ugarte, Bruno, Mainoo to cover 4 positions... so we really need to make room to bring players in and it will probably next season when Casemiro leaves.

We will probably also end up selling Ugarte next season if he has another poor one.
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I understand the economics of it all but what does a poor Ugarte season mean to United's season and objectives? This is what the football brains trust need to assess, do they trust him to have a positive contribution to the team and if not can the team succeed with Casemiro as first choice? I am saying we know the answer to these questions and having Bruno in CM makes it worse.
 
romufc said:
The issue we have is that we have Casemiro, Ugarte, Bruno, Mainoo to cover 4 positions... so we really need to make room to bring players in and it will probably next season when Casemiro leaves.

We will probably also end up selling Ugarte next season if he has another poor one.
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If Ugarte has a poor season that will make him difficult to sell
 
AneRu said:
I understand the economics of it all but what does a poor Ugarte season mean to United's season and objectives? This is what the football brains trust need to assess, do they trust him to have a positive contribution to the team and if not can the team succeed with Casemiro as first choice? I am saying we know the answer to these questions and having Bruno in CM makes it worse.
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Well, reports have suggested that the hierarchy have confidence in Ugarte anyway...
 
romufc said:
Well, reports have suggested that the hierarchy have confidence in Ugarte anyway...
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Like they had confidence in Hoijlund, in ETH? We might as well shut down the forum if what they have confidence in goes.
 
AneRu said:
Like they had confidence in Hoijlund, in ETH? We might as well shut down the forum if what they have confidence in goes.
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Fair enough. It seems you have mind your mind up that Ugarte / Casemiro and Bruno in CM wont work for us this season.
 
romufc said:
Fair enough. It seems you have mind your mind up that Ugarte / Casemiro and Bruno in CM wont work for us this season.
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They might work but the evidence suggests they won't so I'd be more comfortable if the position was given more priority. I understand that Wilcox might be interested in seeing his first major signing not written off as a flop but team needs should take precedence over ego.
 
We really should have gone for Thuram's other boy plying his trade at Juventus. He was cheap.
 
Ugarte's tackles, interceptions, and blocks as well as long and medium pass completion are all elite elite. He's 24. It was his first season in a new country/league. We were a shambles and made a massive change in terms of manager, tactics, formation. I wouldn't be surprised to see him take another step forward this season and be integral to our team. Still not sure he works with Bruno but let's wait and see. Èderson would be a decent shout but he'd be more of a compliment to Ugarte and wouldn't work well with Bruno. Neil El Aynaoui might be a decent shout to give Ugarte competition. The ideal players aren't available. We aren't getting Neves.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Possibly. I haven't really been following it, if I'm honest. However, I'm not sure Amorim would have had much interest anyway. Whether the fanbase agree or not, he's said a number of times that he wants to add physicality to the team.
Found this video really interesting.

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Going off this video Ndidi at Leicester for 9 million might be worth a punt.
 
We will rue the day he decided to stay. This was the perfect time for him to go. 100 million would have been an excellent return and would have made our summer window a lot easier.
 
Frank Grimes said:
We will rue the day he decided to stay. This was the perfect time for him to go. 100 million would have been an excellent return and would have made our summer window a lot easier.
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It was such a perfect situation. Bruno has been a great servant to the club so you dont want to push him out but he doesnt work in a double pivot. Getting 80M+ for him was the reason the club needed to give to the fans to accept his departure. And you could have invested this money in a pair of midfielders suited to Amorim's style. Now he's going to have to play in a position that doesnt fit him (and probably get slack for it) and will probably leave on a free when his contract ends in 2 years.
 
Kayla40TS said:
Ugarte's tackles, interceptions, and blocks as well as long and medium pass completion are all elite elite. He's 24. It was his first season in a new country/league. We were a shambles and made a massive change in terms of manager, tactics, formation. I wouldn't be surprised to see him take another step forward this season and be integral to our team. Still not sure he works with Bruno but let's wait and see. Èderson would be a decent shout but he'd be more of a compliment to Ugarte and wouldn't work well with Bruno. Neil El Aynaoui might be a decent shout to give Ugarte competition. The ideal players aren't available. We aren't getting Neves.
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This is my hope. For sure have not given up him one bit.
 
huyn said:
It was such a perfect situation. Bruno has been a great servant to the club so you dont want to push him out but he doesnt work in a double pivot. Getting 80M+ for him was the reason the club needed to give to the fans to accept his departure. And you could have invested this money in a pair of midfielders suited to Amorim's style. Now he's going to have to play in a position that doesnt fit him (and probably get slack for it) and will probably leave on a free when his contract ends in 2 years.
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The Saudis would've paid the entirety of his transfer fee up-front too, which would have really helped with our cash flow.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
The Saudis would've paid the entirety of his transfer fee up-front too, which would have really helped with our cash flow.
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Good point, no installments over a million years like most european clubs. And they'd laugh while handing out the money because they have so much they dont give a feck.
 
Apparently Hjulmand is available for £34 million
 
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Frank Grimes said:
We will rue the day he decided to stay. This was the perfect time for him to go. 100 million would have been an excellent return and would have made our summer window a lot easier.
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Don't say that because makes it more painful
 
Mateus Fernandes worked under Amorim at Sporting and has been one of the best two way CM's in the league this season. Here's his stats compared to Bruno Guimaraes, the CM I think he's closest too stylistically.

https://ibb.co/CKn3C2Dk

If we could sign him for anything close to the fee Southampton paid then he'd be a steal.
 
FlawlessVictory88 said:
Mateus Fernandes worked under Amorim at Sporting and has been one of the best two way CM's in the league this season. Here's his stats compared to Bruno Guimaraes, the CM I think he's closest too stylistically.

https://ibb.co/CKn3C2Dk

If we could sign him for anything close to the fee Southampton paid then he'd be a steal.
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Really pity he didn't have a relegation clause
 
FlawlessVictory88 said:
Mateus Fernandes worked under Amorim at Sporting and has been one of the best two way CM's in the league this season. Here's his stats compared to Bruno Guimaraes, the CM I think he's closest too stylistically.

https://ibb.co/CKn3C2Dk

If we could sign him for anything close to the fee Southampton paid then he'd be a steal.
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He’s similar to Mainoo’s profile - transitional ball carrying midfielder. We need someone who’ll sit next to Bruno and playmake from deep.
 
Freak said:
He’s similar to Mainoo’s profile - transitional ball carrying midfielder. We need someone who’ll sit next to Bruno and playmake from deep.
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Well 99% of the thread keeps saying we need physicality and asking for Baleba or this profile.

Mateus is only 20 and after 1 season was putting up fairly elite numbers which are even more impressive in an awful Southampton team. Bruno is 31 and not what our long term plans should revolve around, I struggle to see how we could ever lose money buying Mateus for less than 30m.

I also don't believe that Mainoo is strictly a ball carrying midfielder, he's very technically gifted and could easily play in the midfield two.
 
Personally id sack our first team scouts and bring in the scouts from Brighton and Bournemouth who keep finding this talent and upselling for crazy fees.
 
yamo123x said:
Personally id sack our first team scouts and bring in the scouts from Brighton and Bournemouth who keep finding this talent and upselling for crazy fees.
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That's actually not a bad idea
 
The profile we should be looking for is someone with an engine, athletic, positionally aware, and can handle a press. Everything beyond that is a bonus. It would be nice to have a little passing range as well but not mandatory. Like I mentioned earlier, Mainoo would be perfect if he got around the pitch a bit better.
 
FlawlessVictory88 said:
Well 99% of the thread keeps saying we need physicality and asking for Baleba or this profile.

Mateus is only 20 and after 1 season was putting up fairly elite numbers which are even more impressive in an awful Southampton team. Bruno is 31 and not what our long term plans should revolve around, I struggle to see how we could ever lose money buying Mateus for less than 30m.

I also don't believe that Mainoo is strictly a ball carrying midfielder, he's very technically gifted and could easily play in the midfield two.
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Nothing in the stats suggests to me that Mateus is a ball carrier. well below average in take ons and carries. Bang verage at successful takes on completed. Piss poor at carries and particularly progressive carries. He's young so lots of room to grow but he is a downgrade on Ugarte. Their defensive stats are near identical. Ugarte has better carry per 90 stats. Better pass completion stats at all three levels as well.
 
Kayla40TS said:
Nothing in the stats suggests to me that Mateus is a ball carrier. well below average in take ons and carries. Bang verage at successful takes on completed. Piss poor at carries and particularly progressive carries. He's young so lots of room to grow but he is a downgrade on Ugarte. Their defensive stats are near identical. Ugarte has better carry per 90 stats. Better pass completion stats at all three levels as well.
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I think your comparing him to attacking midfielders/wingers. He’s in the 97th and 90th percentile for carries and take-ons vs midfielders.
 
yamo123x said:
Personally id sack our first team scouts and bring in the scouts from Brighton and Bournemouth who keep finding this talent and upselling for crazy fees.
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It's not their scouts that are special, it's the data they have
 
JohnnyLaw said:
I think your comparing him to attacking midfielders/wingers. He’s in the 97th and 90th percentile for carries and take-ons vs midfielders.
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Fair play. I did make that error. Compared head to head Ugarte is still ahead in carries and total distance. Mateus ahead in progressive distance. Their head to head per 90 which is mainly where I was focused remains the same. Hard to make a direct comparison though knowing that Mateus spent some time playing somewhere other than central midfield.
 
Kayla40TS said:
Fair play. I did make that error. Compared head to head Ugarte is still ahead in carries and total distance. Mateus ahead in progressive distance. Their head to head per 90 which is mainly where I was focused remains the same. Hard to make a direct comparison though knowing that Mateus spent some time playing somewhere other than central midfield.
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Progressive carries Ugarte is 0.67 per game Fernandes is 2.35. Ugarte is bottom 20% in the league Fernandes is top 10%. Ugarte total carrying distance is 145, Fernandes is 177 so no Ugarte isn't even remotely close to him in ball carrying, he might literally be worse in ever category, Carries into final third/carries into penalty area etc.

The fact that you don't know this player at all outside of a badly read FBref report means you should prob sit this one out.
 
Missing out on Joao Neves was a huge blow. People here said he couldn't handle the physicality or that he would block Mainoo's development (I think even I had said that) or that 60m would be too much for a player from Portugal (same mistake some are doing with Gyokeres). In hindsight it sucks that we basically financed his fee by buying Ugarte.
 
aeh1991 said:
Missing out on Joao Neves was a huge blow. People here said he couldn't handle the physicality or that he would block Mainoo's development (I think even I had said that) or that 60m would be too much for a player from Portugal (same mistake some are doing with Gyokeres). In hindsight it sucks that we basically financed his fee by buying Ugarte.
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PSG dont need to sell to finance a deal.. they have unlimited money.

Why do people think we could have signed him, once PSG were involved, we were never getting him.

Its a bit like Kvara, clubs looked at him but he went to PSG, Liverpool were also interested.
 
romufc said:
PSG dont need to sell to finance a deal.. they have unlimited money.

Why do people think we could have signed him, once PSG were involved, we were never getting him.

Its a bit like Kvara, clubs looked at him but he went to PSG, Liverpool were also interested.
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We still paid them 50m and that covers most of his fee, so even if they have unlimited money we technically financed his deal.
 
FlawlessVictory88 said:
Progressive carries Ugarte is 0.67 per game Fernandes is 2.35. Ugarte is bottom 20% in the league Fernandes is top 10%. Ugarte total carrying distance is 145, Fernandes is 177 so no Ugarte isn't even remotely close to him in ball carrying, he might literally be worse in ever category, Carries into final third/carries into penalty area etc.

The fact that you don't know this player at all outside of a badly read FBref report means you should prob sit this one out.
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I filtered for European and Cup competitions since United also compete in those sometimes, as do other teams, and I think it's important to understand a player's quality overall not just 'in the league'. I also toggled per 90. You can see the results here: https://fbref.com/stathead/player_c...491564&p1yrfrom=2024-2025&player_id2=c9817014

Since I'm a mature adult I won't sink to responding to personal attacks.
 
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