What Punishment?

VP89

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The FA should be disbanded immediately for letting so many bad owners takeover. Lifetime bans from the sport for all those in executive positions.

All the government ministers in the Labour government in 2005 should be get a lifetime ban from all football activities.
Imagine Gordon Brown rocking up to a Power League and getting turned away
 

cyril C

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What will our punishment be? What should it be? I can't see a point deduction this season, as that would be an invitation to fans of clubs just missing out on promotion, relegation, or whatever to protest at a rival club, in their colours of course. Minus 10 pts next season then, or worse?
Well, if the match is rescheduled to Tues, then we will be punished. Either our best 11 will be playing 2 games in 2 days, or we have to send U21 against Liverpool to be slaughtered.
 

Big Ben Foster

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I don't see anyone who wants the club to be punished. Expecting a punishment and wanting a punishment are two completely different things.
 

Crustanoid

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The Glazers should get pushed out of United. That’s the only sanction that is acceptable
 

NicolaSacco

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Middlesbrough were deducted points for failing to turn up to a game and also for failing to inform the PL, not for having an injury crisis.
A quick copy and paste from the first result on Google suggests you might be wrong

"Following more conversations, and seemingly with Premier League support, Lamb informed the league that they would be postponing the game.

Today this would not be seen as an issue. A virus outbreak is a just cause.

Unfortunately, when Parry returned to his office and Premier League officials had further opportunity to discuss the matter, the mood changed.

Boro were now being told that the postponement was unacceptable. There was no chance to reorganise the game, but Boro were ordered to appear before a Premier League commission."
Get a grip. If they deduct points from the team (which they know will hurt the fans protesting) they are basically picking a side which they cannot afford to do. They’ve no love for the Glazers... the club will be fined and this will be swept under the carpet. End of.
Yeah I get that. But if they do nothing, or impose a token fine then it’s a green light for fans to disrupt matches in the future to protest against their owners. I think the PL are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. They can’t simply not react. What if Utd fans did it in every home game? How many cancelled matches is too many? Just out of interest what would you suggest the FA/epl do if Utd fans don’t let the replayed fixture happen?

I think they have to impose a punishment as a deterrent. They may think that the best way is a points deduction this season which doesn’t affect the final table but sets a precedent for future action. It could take years to get rid of the Glazers, multiple protests and disruption.
 

Andersons Dietician

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You would think the game would Just be forfeited and go down as a loss but given it’s a standout fixture not just in the UK but world wide there will be preasure for the game to go ahead somewhere In the schedule.
 

ivaldo

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They weren't match going fans and so the club aren't responsible for their actions. We'll get a fine for having our security breached and that's about it.
 

duffer

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Only way you get punished is if it comes out that, despite knowing about the protests for weeks, you didn't do anything about it in terms of increased security or planning.

Absolute worst case scenario is a fine and forfeit the game 3-0 I would imagine
 

Gentleman Jim

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Don’t know and don’t care but if you look beyond Glazer hatred for a minute the FA really must do something or it would be Carte Blanche for any club’s fans to sabotage games to draw attention to their grievances.
The Scousers roll out their bus wrecking party piece whenever it suits them in an attempt to influence the result of matches and now this.

If they’re soft now it’ll keep happening from time to time.
 

Sky1981

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Off course we can get punished. Does it matter it's our or some nutters fault. The onus to maintain security is on the club.

We did. Take the punishment with pride. Nothing to play for this season anyway 3 pts docked pts wont matter much.
 

VP89

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Off course we can get punished. Does it matter it's our or some nutters fault. The onus to maintain security is on the club.

We did. Take the punishment with pride. Nothing to play for this season anyway 3 pts docked pts wont matter much.
How was our security less adequate than any other club on match day, in this environment ?
 

horsechoker

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Is there a chance this gets postponed to a time when fans can go into the stadium?

Would be ironic if this ends up having a few thousands able to attend
 

Pexbo

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Don’t know and don’t care but if you look beyond Glazer hatred for a minute the FA really must do something or it would be Carte Blanche for any club’s fans to sabotage games to draw attention to their grievances.
The Scousers roll out their bus wrecking party piece whenever it suits them in an attempt to influence the result of matches and now this.

If they’re soft now it’ll keep happening from time to time.
Easy to say when your own fans have zero interest in protesting their owners.
 

McTerminator

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A quick copy and paste from the first result on Google suggests you might be wrong

"Following more conversations, and seemingly with Premier League support, Lamb informed the league that they would be postponing the game.

Today this would not be seen as an issue. A virus outbreak is a just cause.

Unfortunately, when Parry returned to his office and Premier League officials had further opportunity to discuss the matter, the mood changed.

Boro were now being told that the postponement was unacceptable. There was no chance to reorganise the game, but Boro were ordered to appear before a Premier League commission."


Yeah I get that. But if they do nothing, or impose a token fine then it’s a green light for fans to disrupt matches in the future to protest against their owners. I think the PL are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. They can’t simply not react. What if Utd fans did it in every home game? How many cancelled matches is too many? Just out of interest what would you suggest the FA/epl do if Utd fans don’t let the replayed fixture happen?

I think they have to impose a punishment as a deterrent. They may think that the best way is a points deduction this season which doesn’t affect the final table but sets a precedent for future action. It could take years to get rid of the Glazers, multiple protests and disruption.
I hear you and thank you for a well reasoned response. However, you’re comparing Boro and United. I do not recall City being punished when they artificially postponed a game mid season to buy their players a break which potentially materially affected the league standings long term (I know that’s a bit of a stretch).

However, while your Boro example is perfectly valid, not all clubs are equal and I think how they treated a comparatively large club is a better indicator.

On top of this we have the ESL fallout. I would put it to you like this. But for the actions of the fans of the top 6, there is a very real chance that the FA would be looking at a league without them. Now I don’t expect the FA feel grateful for that don’t get me wrong, but I do believe they are clever enough to know that if and When the big clubs try this again (and they will one day) they are going to need the fans who were protesting yesterday and they know yesterday’s protest is still connected to the ESL fallout. For this reason I believe they have a fine line to walk to be seen to do something, but not attack the fans who just did them such a favour. That’s why I think it will be a fairly hefty fine, because it hurts the Glazers/Club rather than team/fans.

That said I could easily see it playing out your way so will be interesting to see!
 

cyberman

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Don’t know and don’t care but if you look beyond Glazer hatred for a minute the FA really must do something or it would be Carte Blanche for any club’s fans to sabotage games to draw attention to their grievances.
The Scousers roll out their bus wrecking party piece whenever it suits them in an attempt to influence the result of matches and now this.

If they’re soft now it’ll keep happening from time to time.
How? None of this happened with match going fans at the stadium. Its like punishing Arsenal for the London riots.
It may have been about a football club but it was a public matter.
Its also obvious what happens next. Different fan groups will merge and good luck working that out
 

VP89

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Does it matter?

They're our fans. If they're protesting in our behalf then we have to own them.
Yes. To suggest a punishment is generally on the pre-requisite that the club's standards of control was relatively worse than their peers. Chelsea fans blocked the team bus from entering their stadium before a match and likely would have stayed if the ESL withdrawal announcement never came. There are factors out of the club's hands.

If United had locked up the stadium the same as any other clubs (which they did), they can't really be punished for a lack of security to access the stadium itself unless of course they are lacking in the requirements - and I mean that on a relative basis and also on the minimum requirements that are set out by the FA.
 

Sky1981

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Yes. To suggest a punishment is generally on the pre-requisite that the club's standards of control was relatively worse than their peers. Chelsea fans blocked the team bus from entering their stadium before a match and likely would have stayed if the ESL withdrawal announcement never came. There are factors out of the club's hands.

If United had locked up the stadium the same as any other clubs (which they did), they can't really be punished for a lack of security to access the stadium itself unless of course they are lacking in the requirements - and I mean that on a relative basis and also on the minimum requirements that are set out by the FA.
Sorry. Doesnt work that way.

If fans racially abused a player, it's the club that'll be punished to play behind closed door.

Pitch invasion. Flares inside stadium. Fights breaks out. Missing registry on deadline. Most of the mistakes that caused fines or pts deductions arent exactly the "teams" doing literally. But it's still on the team.

Plus have you ever thought about how many companies endures loses due to slotted time advertisements being cancelled? How many pubs around the world lost revenue because of a cancelled match? Etc.

You may say it doesnt effect you. But it's naive to think this action doesnt impact anyone else.

And you do know that a replay cost lots of taxpayers money in terms of policing, fixture congestion, travel fee, hotel fee for visiting teams, tv stations across the world have to cancel another slot for the replay etc.

Try to look at things from other point of view for a change.

The 3pts given to liverpool is a fair punishment for a cancelled match due to our fans, regardless of whether we support tye move or not the punishment would be justified.

It's a professional foul, take the red card with pride.
 

DomesticTadpole

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What needs to happen is a big change in who can buy football clubs and how they go about it. The PL are shocked about this but them allowing the purchase of our club in this fashion is what caused yesterday. Due diligence my arse.
 

Gentleman Jim

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Easy to say when your own fans have zero interest in protesting their owners.
We did at one time (got Peter Swales removed for Francis Lee) but our protests were after the match.
Many fan bases hate their owners (eg Newcastle, Arsenal etc) but don’t wreck opposition players buses or act like a Neanderthal mob to deliberately get a match postponed.
 

VP89

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Sorry. Doesnt work that way.

If fans racially abused a player, it's the club that'll be punished to play behind closed door.
Pitch invasion. Flares inside stadium. Fights breaks out. Missing registry on deadline. Most of the mistakes that caused fines or pts deductions arent exactly the "teams" doing literally. But it's still on the team.
That's on normal match-days. You're making comparisons of a normal circumstance to a covid environment.

The only way you are making reasonable comparisons here is if all of yesterday's events happened whilst we were back to normal. In that sense sure you can blame a lack of security on match-day etc.

Plus have you ever thought about how many companies endures loses due to slotted time advertisements being cancelled? How many pubs around the world lost revenue because of a cancelled match? Etc.

You may say it doesnt effect you. But it's naive to think this action doesnt impact anyone else.
You're naieve to think if that's not the problem. It's a sport first and a business second. I'm not saying only us fans were affected - and I never even insinuated it. But Sky pundits who are endorsed by their employers to condemn the protests refused to do so. ESPN was cutting off their staff speaking their mind. Many rival fans applauded the work of 99% of the fans whilst condemning only the violence associated by the few.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with money lost, here. That they need to fine to make up for the missed revenues? No, that's not why you fine clubs :lol: You fine them if they did something wrong, and failed in their due care. Not if protestors broke down doors in a locked stadium, which has the same levels of security as every other PL club. Not if fans congregate outside a hotel that has feck all to do with the stadium.

And you do know that a replay cost lots of taxpayers money in terms of policing, fixture congestion, travel fee, hotel fee for visiting teams, tv stations across the world have to cancel another slot for the replay etc.

Try to look at things from other point of view for a change.
I've always considered this view, but you don't fine a club just because of circumstance. That's not how fining works.
The 3pts given to liverpool is a fair punishment for a cancelled match due to our fans, regardless of whether we support tye move or not the punishment would be justified.

It's a professional foul, take the red card with pride.
No, it's not a fair punishment because the PL will try and say "if you make inconvenient protests that delay our schedule and take money away from our businesses, then we will hurt the fans more". That's only going to piss fans off even more.
 

HerbT

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You would think the game would Just be forfeited and go down as a loss but given it’s a standout fixture not just in the UK but world wide there will be preasure for the game to go ahead somewhere In the schedule.
Also, if the game were forfeited, thus gifting 3 points to the dippers who are in a tight battle for European qualification, then the clubs in immediate contention with the dippers would go ballistic, maybe even take legal action.
Just ‘giving’ 3 points to the dippers would be just ‘taking’ league position and earnings off other clubs.
I think it’ll be a fine at best or maybe a 3 or 6 points deduction for next season at worst.
 

Sky1981

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That's on normal match-days. You're making comparisons of a normal circumstance to a covid environment.

The only way you are making reasonable comparisons here is if all of yesterday's events happened whilst we were back to normal. In that sense sure you can blame a lack of security on match-day etc.


You're naieve to think if that's not the problem. It's a sport first and a business second. I'm not saying only us fans were affected - and I never even insinuated it. But Sky pundits who are endorsed by their employers to condemn the protests refused to do so. ESPN was cutting off their staff speaking their mind. Many rival fans applauded the work of 99% of the fans whilst condemning only the violence associated by the few.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with money lost, here. That they need to fine to make up for the missed revenues? No, that's not why you fine clubs :lol: You fine them if they did something wrong, and failed in their due care. Not if protestors broke down doors in a locked stadium, which has the same levels of security as every other PL club. Not if fans congregate outside a hotel that has feck all to do with the stadium.


I've always considered this view, but you don't fine a club just because of circumstance. That's not how fining works.

No, it's not a fair punishment because the PL will try and say "if you make inconvenient protests that delay our schedule and take money away from our businesses, then we will hurt the fans more". That's only going to piss fans off even more.
So it's not united fault? Those fans are bad apples? They dont represent us?
 

K Stand Knut

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I swear some would like us to have a fine, points deduction and for those scary football fans to never protest ever again... ffs.
The (maybe good) thing is that any decent points deduction, fine or forfeiture, MIGHT encourage more of the same because there will be a turning point where it will really start to hurt the club and therefore the Glazers.

The question will be what lengths the fans will go to to get the Glazers out and what will be considered worth it in the long term.

No European football for a few seasons??

Mid-table finishes??

Bottom half finishes??

Relegation??
 

roonster09

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As expected. So much nonsense was spouted yesterday like points deduction :lol:
Did anyone hope/predict relegation?

ESL punishment thread was much more funnier.
 

VP89

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So it's not united fault? Those fans are bad apples? They dont represent us?
The fans that were violent were bad apples and do not represent us, yes. But you can't punish the club for a lack of security, because it has to be lacking relative to something. If it was meeting the minimum requirements and was no less than the security of it's peers then I'm not sure what basis you have to fine the club.
 

thegregster

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We did at one time (got Peter Swales removed for Francis Lee) but our protests were after the match.
Many fan bases hate their owners (eg Newcastle, Arsenal etc) but don’t wreck opposition players buses or act like a Neanderthal mob to deliberately get a match postponed.
No. You just show up at nursing homes.

The last straw,' Swales claimed, came when two City fans turned up at his mother's bedside at a nursing home in Altrincham. 'Death threats against me are one thing, but when supporters will sink to the depths where they involve an

87-year-old woman, the time has come for me to take action,' he said. 'My family have been living in constant fear and their safety was my prime consideration.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...-for-stepping-down-at-maine-road-1507778.html
 

duffer

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The fans that were violent were bad apples and do not represent us, yes. But you can't punish the club for a lack of security, because it has to be lacking relative to something. If it was meeting the minimum requirements and was no less than the security of it's peers then I'm not sure what basis you have to fine the club.
Only possible reason for punishment I could see is if there was no increased security precautions in light of knowledge that protests were going to happen.

The club knew weeks ago that there was going to be protests yesterday. If they did nothing with that info then someone is going to be in trouble
 

Sky1981

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The fans that were violent were bad apples and do not represent us, yes. But you can't punish the club for a lack of security, because it has to be lacking relative to something. If it was meeting the minimum requirements and was no less than the security of it's peers then I'm not sure what basis you have to fine the club.
The racist fans are bad apples. But still its the whole team and fans that endures the punishments of playing behind close door.

Sometimes it's not always about justice or fair. It's called collective punishments, like in the army. When one people fecked up everyone was made to run 8 miles.

The above example would be a deterrent so that fans would think twice before being racist, and fellow fans would help policing out of their love for the club.

Is it ideal? Who cares. It works

Look. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong in principle. But that's just how things works. They're not going to let this slide and rightly so.

It's like ole taking one for the team and took out the striker and got a red. It's a commendable red but still a red.
 

VP89

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Only possible reason for punishment I could see is if there was no increased security precautions in light of knowledge that protests were going to happen.

The club knew weeks ago that there was going to be protests yesterday. If they did nothing with that info then someone is going to be in trouble
Yes this is the only route I agree. They put out those small barricades but it didn't do much :lol:
 

RedRover

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[/QUOTE]
If a couple of hundred people want to get into a building they will get in, unless you have a police cordon around the entire ground.

Of course a review will happen and increased measures put in place - but United aren't going to be punished because angry protesters broke in to the stadium.
Will they? I'm not sure I accept that. Looked very much like hundreds of random people (including kids, when you see the pictures) were just able to wander in. I assume the stadium is generally secure when it's not in use, i.e. locked up. Are you saying you could get in easily if you wanted to?

Maybe not in the end, but in the context of a global pandemic, clearly security at stadiums should be tight. If they want to make an example they will (in my opinion) use that. It's arguably no different from clubs failing to control fans in the stadium.

EDIT: I've seen the post below and it seems they forced their way in. Still be interesting to see if there's a punishment handed out.
 

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Surely the Glazers should be punished for allowing it to get to this point, not the players or the fans? At what point do the FA step in and tell them to sell up? If United fans keep disrupting the games surely they have to come under pressure from the wankers at the top?
 

RedRover

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Surely the Glazers should be punished for allowing it to get to this point, not the players or the fans? At what point do the FA step in and tell them to sell up? If United fans keep disrupting the games surely they have to come under pressure from the wankers at the top?
The problem is nobody can force them to sell up, and it's nothing to do with the FA. The club is a company and they own the shares, simple as that.
 

Buster15

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If you think about it logically, the PL & FA are actually the beneficiaries of protests by fans if those six clubs.
Had the protests not happened, those six clubs were going to form the ESL and the PL & FA would have been massively affected.
Now, I am not suggesting that last night protests ought to go un-punished. But any repercussions need to be considered in context.
I would hope that it is limited to a fine which would be the most appropriate outcome.