So according to you only doing utterly stupid thing is risky? Because everything else depends on execution, I clearly pointed out an example of how playing Karius, Lovren and Matip in a high line is risky.
What should Utd's footballing philosophy be?
- Thread starter Physiocrat
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Exactly he is still making the same point
Firstly, leave out the dreaded word philosophy in a football context. Only lvg is narcissistic enough to consider his football a philosophy.
Risky football is football which facilitates chances in attack at the expense of becoming vulnerable in defence. Any team that is chasing a game is forced to take a more risky approach toward the end. But to be proactive in your approach and to have a more risky approach are different things. And City proved it last season by breaking scoring records while having the best defensive record.
Maybe you are conflating 'more attacking' with 'more risky'. The notion that a more attacking approach equals a more risky approach doesn't take into account the recent developments in football. Within Guardiola's system, a more attacking approach is less risky than a defensive one provided that you manage to defend well in the opposition's half. For Guardiola, to sit back and play passive football is more risky defensively wise because you invite attacks and are more likely to concede chances. The ballance between attack and defence is key: to attack with success without conceding (many) chances, i.e. without taking big risks.
The approach should be a bit more attacking, but let's not kid ourselves and think we will ever come close to SAF"s level of attacking play in the near future. That would require massive investment.
For the moment our realistic approach should be:
V1
- get a stable formation and figure out what to do with our attacking players(that are now really not suited to our usual formation and seem to not link up well)
- get a stable back 4 and midfield
- get Tony & Sanchez to produce some 15+ goals this season
- invest a bit in the winter and improve the back line(new CB + possibly new RB if Dalot doesn't make it this year)
- keep Jose
- do something with that pogba prick and make him shut his feking mouth with his instagram and his feking world cup, he's so full of himself that it's really starting to become a problem.
V2: (radical and stupid solution)
- sack Jose, pump a shi7load of money into transfers, hire a well-known attacking manager and pray it will go good
- all of it to satisfy the attacking needs the CAF posters need
V1 issues:
- needs luck with injuries
- needs Jose to absorb the whole press pressure
V2 issues:
- it will only happen if the CAF keyboard warriors rise up and start WW3.
For the moment our realistic approach should be:
V1
- get a stable formation and figure out what to do with our attacking players(that are now really not suited to our usual formation and seem to not link up well)
- get a stable back 4 and midfield
- get Tony & Sanchez to produce some 15+ goals this season
- invest a bit in the winter and improve the back line(new CB + possibly new RB if Dalot doesn't make it this year)
- keep Jose
- do something with that pogba prick and make him shut his feking mouth with his instagram and his feking world cup, he's so full of himself that it's really starting to become a problem.
V2: (radical and stupid solution)
- sack Jose, pump a shi7load of money into transfers, hire a well-known attacking manager and pray it will go good
- all of it to satisfy the attacking needs the CAF posters need
V1 issues:
- needs luck with injuries
- needs Jose to absorb the whole press pressure
V2 issues:
- it will only happen if the CAF keyboard warriors rise up and start WW3.
No it wouldn't - you just need better coaching.
Let's think it out a bit, what would require us to play more on the offensive front:
-> stable defense (if a new coach would get a stable defense out of SMalling/Bailly/Jones/Victor/Rojo that would be some achievement), but let's face it, most likely a new manager would want to get at least 1 new CB in (if Jose didn't get to have a stable CB partnership in 2 years what makes you think a new coach will do that)
-> most offensive managers have at least decent fullbacks and good technical wingers/inside forwards/whatever: we have none of that, not even one natural wide player(Alexis isn't one, Martial might be, Mata isn't, Lingz isn't,) ; we have SHaw on the left but nothing on the right.
The way I look at it, a new manager will, at least, request: one CB, one RB, one or two wide players -> that's some investment there
IMO more attacking means more risk. You yourself have stated it "Risky football is football which facilitates chances in attack at the expense of becoming vulnerable in defence", in Guardiola and Klopp's teams the defenders are in constant risk of being exposed, one mistake in midfield and the central defence which is very high up the pitch is suddenly extremely vulnerable, but the reward is also huge, you pin back teams and can force them to make mistakes from unrelenting attacks.
High speed and fast attacking football with strong emphasis on wing play. That's it. We don't play tiki taka possession football. Always we play direct but that doesn't mean that we play counter attack all the time either. The team must be balanced and adapt to every situation. Best example we should follow is 2006-2009. Another example to follow is Real Madrid with Zidane. They were pragmatic when they needed to be but also knew how to keep the ball and work their way up the pitch with possession.
I’m not convinced there is really any such thing as a philosophy in football. You can express a rather vague desire for fast-paced attacking football but what does that mean in reality? How does that even translate in a game-by-game basis?
I think a lot of people seem to be of the view that a Director of Football adds quality, as opposed to performing a rather functional role within an organisational structure.
Teams like Madrid, Barcelona, Dortmund and Monaco regularly change managers, playing style, and all go through plenty of players. Does this idea that other clubs have an ingrained way of playing and only bring in coaches who, somehow, always play this exact way and never need to change the squad exist in reality?
To me, a lot of this DoF chat has come about due to Mourinho being the manager, and folk thinking it would be a panacea for how they think he conducts his business. Succession after Fergie was always going to be difficult and, again, I don’t see that a DoF would necessarily have improved anything.
I get the impression people seem to have elevated a DoF to mystical status, and overlook a lot of what is involved in affording and attracting players to any football club.
I think a lot of people seem to be of the view that a Director of Football adds quality, as opposed to performing a rather functional role within an organisational structure.
Teams like Madrid, Barcelona, Dortmund and Monaco regularly change managers, playing style, and all go through plenty of players. Does this idea that other clubs have an ingrained way of playing and only bring in coaches who, somehow, always play this exact way and never need to change the squad exist in reality?
To me, a lot of this DoF chat has come about due to Mourinho being the manager, and folk thinking it would be a panacea for how they think he conducts his business. Succession after Fergie was always going to be difficult and, again, I don’t see that a DoF would necessarily have improved anything.
I get the impression people seem to have elevated a DoF to mystical status, and overlook a lot of what is involved in affording and attracting players to any football club.
The point is that they are not vulnerable in defence as their record shows. If anything, they are less vulnearble (than more defensive teams) as they concede less chances.
Risky football is football that facilitates chances for the opposition. And exactly this isn't the case with City (and Liverpool recently). They attack more and create more but they do not concede more. An approach that stops the opposition from creating chances is not risky. IIRC, City have conceded less shots within their box than any other team in Europe last season. Their approach does not make it easier for the oppositon to score against them, i.e. it is not risky. Risky football is football without good balance between attack and defence: you facilitate your chances in attack by making it easier for the opposition to score too. The risk is correlated with the probability of the outcome. If the outcome is fewer conceded chances, then the approach isn't particularly risky.
This is basically how you want your wife to be:
Pretty, sexy, good in bed, understanding, mature, and all other good things you'd want in a wife.
Well no shit sherlock.
Pretty, sexy, good in bed, understanding, mature, and all other good things you'd want in a wife.
Well no shit sherlock.
So when a team trailing by a goal, sub-in an attacker for a defender and then score goal and win the game without conceding means they didn't take a risk?
Liverpool are not great defensively, they are moving towards functional competence, but what makes it work is the fear their attacking play instills in the opposition. That fear makes teams far less willing to move forward and create space for Liverpool's very dangerous transition and ultimately takes pressure off their defenders.
We often read on here that Utd play defensively to protect a weak defensive unit, but by playing cautiously you inherently invite pressure upon that unit.
We often read on here that Utd play defensively to protect a weak defensive unit, but by playing cautiously you inherently invite pressure upon that unit.
'You score 3, we'll score 4'
I like that a lot better than 'You concede 1, we'll concede 0'
I like that a lot better than 'You concede 1, we'll concede 0'
Intensive
High pressing
Ball winning
Entertaining
High pressing
Ball winning
Entertaining
I think first a philosophy for a club has to be set off the pitch, and not on the pitch. It goes beyond quality of player, or technical ability, to more along the lines of character and mentality of player. That's what made SAF so successful, the character of players that he bought. You can't play high risk football unless you have a mentally strong squad capable of dealing with the pressure of high risk football.
What I always loved about the SAF era was that it was always about the sum of the whole, building a squad in which every player complemented each other, hard workers such as Park and Rooney willing to sacrifice themselves in order to allow Ronaldo to shine, much like Fletcher doing the hard graft so that Scholes could focus on what he excelled at.
I think the most worrying thing in the last 5 years has been the lack of coherent thought process as to how to build a squad capable of competing, hence the general outcry for a DoF. This idea that Woodward would have paid 100m for Varane, this obsession with building a squad of the best available 11 players in the world is naive, it simply doesn't work like that. Were Evra, Vidic, Park, Carrick and plenty others that contributed heavily to the success of United the greatest players in their position at the time the were bought?
In my mind, the greatest trait of United during SAF was the never say die attitude, players willing to give everything to the cause, fight until the very last minute, self belief in what they were doing. That goes beyond posession football, quick passing, wing play or whatever footballing style that was implemented, it was down to sheer desire and mental fortitude. That never say die attitude filtered right down from the top, from management, to our recruitment policy, everything that was done on the pitch was a culmunation of what was ingrained into every single player behind the scenes. To me, that's what we are missing the most. Its possible we are in a different era of football to ever see that again. Football has changed so much in the past 5 years alone its possible that looking back means nothing any more. Do players of the likes that SAF had at his disposal even exist any more?
What I always loved about the SAF era was that it was always about the sum of the whole, building a squad in which every player complemented each other, hard workers such as Park and Rooney willing to sacrifice themselves in order to allow Ronaldo to shine, much like Fletcher doing the hard graft so that Scholes could focus on what he excelled at.
I think the most worrying thing in the last 5 years has been the lack of coherent thought process as to how to build a squad capable of competing, hence the general outcry for a DoF. This idea that Woodward would have paid 100m for Varane, this obsession with building a squad of the best available 11 players in the world is naive, it simply doesn't work like that. Were Evra, Vidic, Park, Carrick and plenty others that contributed heavily to the success of United the greatest players in their position at the time the were bought?
In my mind, the greatest trait of United during SAF was the never say die attitude, players willing to give everything to the cause, fight until the very last minute, self belief in what they were doing. That goes beyond posession football, quick passing, wing play or whatever footballing style that was implemented, it was down to sheer desire and mental fortitude. That never say die attitude filtered right down from the top, from management, to our recruitment policy, everything that was done on the pitch was a culmunation of what was ingrained into every single player behind the scenes. To me, that's what we are missing the most. Its possible we are in a different era of football to ever see that again. Football has changed so much in the past 5 years alone its possible that looking back means nothing any more. Do players of the likes that SAF had at his disposal even exist any more?
Attacking football, youth, pace with a sprinkling of Machiavelli
4-4-2.
Two traditional hard working wingers who can whip a ball in, two tough tackling CMs and two strikers up front.
The way it’s always been.
Two traditional hard working wingers who can whip a ball in, two tough tackling CMs and two strikers up front.
The way it’s always been.
You should collect everything written by Ferguson, and put people close to the club to work on it, tactics,development of players,transfer market,dressing room relationships,etc,updating training and nutrition issues and try to give a twist to the tactics for football in 2018.
Sorry for my ignorance, but did he play always a 4 -4-2 with wingers?. If that's the case I do not think it will go out of style.
All players from the base, coaches, former club players aware of some basic principles.
Something like your own Cruyff.
I would also try to encourage the hiring of British and Irish players.
Sorry for my ignorance, but did he play always a 4 -4-2 with wingers?. If that's the case I do not think it will go out of style.
All players from the base, coaches, former club players aware of some basic principles.
Something like your own Cruyff.
I would also try to encourage the hiring of British and Irish players.
The philosophy is simple. We attack the space.
No, and when he did it was closer to a 4-4-1-1 than a 4-4-2, with guys like Cantona, Sheringham and Yorke often playing off a main striker. Perhaps our greatest ever era, 06-10 was based around massive tactical flexibility, sometimes without a true out and out striker. What stayed the same regardless of system was the desire to play with speed, maintain a high tempo, look for quick penetrative passes before the defense was set. Those are the type of qualities that Utd should look to preserve and as Fergie showed it is not really about systems as much as intent.
Winning trophies by any means necessary. If we don't, at least being exciting.
The answers here are very disappointing.
Please find below my contribution
Doesnt matter what style we play the next manager will need a stack of money as there are too many players not good enough. The best defensive coach couldnt make Jones Smalling Rojo Bailly and Lindelof a WC defence. Add Valencia Young and Darmian into the mix and defence alone will cost a bare minimum of £250 million. Midfield and attack could be coached to play a fluent faster better style of play, but we would still need to address RW as a minimum. £300 million as a bare minimum for the whole team.
Selling or letting go on a free all the players too old or not good enough would bring in some revenue and lower the wage bill, but still would the glazers stump that up in one go? Without it we would still be in the same boat next season
Selling or letting go on a free all the players too old or not good enough would bring in some revenue and lower the wage bill, but still would the glazers stump that up in one go? Without it we would still be in the same boat next season
High octane up and at 'em for 90 minutes, leave nothing but blood, sweat and snot on the pitch Tommy Doc style
It has to be attack, attack, attack but when we have been successful, we have had a quality defence to back this up. Currently our centre half's aren't good enough and need protection hence the more defensive style. Whenever we open up we get ripped apart.
- Play a proactive attacking style of football (home or away)
- Emphasise flair/trickery and unleash our attacking players again - make it fun for them
- Respect the history of the club and actively engage with the past, challenge the players to win and entertain in equal measure, don't accept anything less
- Exhilarating Wing play - Best, Ronaldo, Giggs, Beckham, Kanchelskis.. its in our blood!
- Put the fans first again.. stop dividing us, we all want to win and be entertained, stop making us pick one or the other when the rival elite sides seem to be able to do both quite easily
- Sign dynamic exciting players who are technically on par with players who you'd expect to play for your Bayerns/Madrids and Barca (no donkeys or slow players).
- Promote the more technically gifted youngsters and integrate them into our first team. It seems the more technically gifted a United youngster is, the less chances he has of making it here. The likes of Pereira.. generally seem to have no chance here, but more efficient youngsters who play a more limited game seem to break through into the side more. We need to try our best to incorporate the more skilful youngsters into our set up in order to avoid another Pogba situation.
- No more hoof-ball under pressure. Play out from the back at all costs and commit to it. All the top sides seem to be able to do this.. why are we the only remaining elite club who kicks it long under pressure all the time, or passes it back whenever we get pressed
- Win the ball back more quickly, sick of us playing such a reactive defensive game when Fergie sides at their best were fast paced and looked to win the ball back quickly
What would you suggest?
Most people are only ever going to say one answer, and that's because Football is meant to be entertainment, and rather than currently being entertained I and others find ourselves more disillusioned.
I just want us to score lots of goals, be entertaining to watch and have players that exciting.
Obviously good defending is important too, but scoring goals is the main aim in football, nobody watches for a good defending performance unless you're an absolute purist.
Obviously good defending is important too, but scoring goals is the main aim in football, nobody watches for a good defending performance unless you're an absolute purist.
I feel like this is somewhat of a myth, at least for a team that's better than most. We almost always look more in control on the front foot.
I honestly would not mind seeing a return to good old-fashioned high-tempo 4-4-2 football and we have not exactly been pulling up trees since 2013 in which we seem to have tried every formation but it. I think Fergie decided to experiment with other formations because of Real Madrid beating us at Old Trafford in 2000, he lost his faith in 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 that night.
Good post.
These kind of players still exist, they're just not what our scouting department is looking for, if the rumours about our galactico policy is to be believed.
Proper wingers..... Oh I miss proper wingers.
I actually disagree, defending without attacking carries higher risk than attacking especially if you are a good side.
Both attacking and defending carry risk.
Like we saw against Brighton if you don't attack teams, you will invite them onto you to attack you. The best teams find the right balance between being attacking and defending.
However attacking teams have an advantage since they can compensate for defensive mistakes by scoring more goals than the opposition. A defensive side making a defensive error in a game has a serious problem. You also cannot win a league with 38 0-0 draws
There has to be something about giving your youth players a chance in there. I don't mean the odd game here and there, I mean a real run in the first team. Something that hasn't really happened in bulk since the class of '92.
Pogba wasn't given the chance he wanted and left. Rashford's chance only came through injuries.
Get Rashford and Lingard in the starting XI. Get Fosu-Mensah back and give him more game time along with McTominay and Pereira. Get Gomes and Chong in the squad and given minutes.
The club means more to these kids than highly paid mercenaries and their level of effort will reflect that.
I'd aim for 10 of the 25 man Premier League squad being Academy Graduates.
Pogba wasn't given the chance he wanted and left. Rashford's chance only came through injuries.
Get Rashford and Lingard in the starting XI. Get Fosu-Mensah back and give him more game time along with McTominay and Pereira. Get Gomes and Chong in the squad and given minutes.
The club means more to these kids than highly paid mercenaries and their level of effort will reflect that.
I'd aim for 10 of the 25 man Premier League squad being Academy Graduates.