Real question is, how would VVD do against Yorke and cole
What team was better: Manchester United 2008 or Liverpool 2019?
- Thread starter matbezlima
- Start date
Mane CR7 Salah
Rooney
Carrick Fletcher
Evra Rio Van Dijk Alexander-A
Van der Sar
You can go either Scholes or Rooney next to 2 hardworking Central midfielders. Rooney shades it for me due to work rate. Rio or Vidic to partner VVD. Liverpool fans would claim Henderson over Fletcher and Becker over VDS.Rooney
Carrick Fletcher
Evra Rio Van Dijk Alexander-A
Van der Sar
Memory might fail me but wasn't 2008 Rooney more of a pure striker rather than a #10? Always find it hard to play players out of position just to accommodate them in such a combined XI.
I'd definitely have Alisson over VDS yes, but might have Vidic instead of VVD too. Certainly up for discussion.
I don't think Liverpool would get the vote even on a Liverpool forum.
That 2008 team won 3 league titles in a row, with 2 CL finals and a semi final. We had world class players all over the pitch.
That 2008 team won 3 league titles in a row, with 2 CL finals and a semi final. We had world class players all over the pitch.
That Ronaldo didn't come into existence until late '10's. His role was wide forward for his rise to prominence.
Wes was in his absolute peak season in '08. Defensively world class whilst actually having some attacking quality. He was very much a key component of the best backline in football. TAA leaves you with little option but to go forward and offers an inlet to the opposition down his flank and even in one on ones. I don't think it's a good switch no matter the quality of his crossing.
Vidic and Rio are arguably the best CB pairing of the entire decade. I cannot buy them being separated. Individually, Vidic vs Van Dijk is an interesting contest, but there's no way he comes into that established backline and all their records and achievements together.
Scholes of this era has to play deep. If you take him out of the team, you've lost the ball retention and ability of others to run away from the ball and work for space. He's intrinsic to the side.
Salah and Mane probably stand the best chance, but Salah's build up and defensive work aren't good enough and Mane is contesting with Ronaldo = lose. Tevez is a better link man and terrier than either.
I am trying to be objective, but alterations to the 2008 side weaken it or break up established, factually legendary partnerships, imo.
Fair post. It's a real shame for you your side habe had their run disrupted.You won 3 PL's in row and added a CL in '08 so, if I had to pick the most dominant PL team ever, 2008 Utd would probably be the one, yes. Of course we don't know what will happen next season, but the current Liverpool side will always have the following arguments going against them:
- Absolutely historic 19/20 season abruptly stopped, possibly even without a title to show for it;
- General consensus that the rest of the big clubs are weaker than a decade ago;
- Didn't win the title in 18/19 because of another historically good side in City.
I don't like whataboutism in these discussions, so just like it's pointless to imagine the situation if City hadn't been that good during '16-'18, it's also pointless to ponder how Utd would be regarded if they hadn't faced the best team of all-time in Barca '09-'11 during that period. Imagine if Liverpool wins the league this season and next, we'd have 2 league titles and a CL (and some other minor cups that I don't even know Utd won during '07-'09), it would still be very hard to argue we're better than your Utd side since we don't have the PL treble. You can argue about it in the sense of a two-legged tie or one-off game, but on the whole, one PL extra, especially making it a treble which no other team has ever done in the PL, carries a lot of weight in such a discussion. Say that we win the treble during 20/21 though, that would make up for the PL less imo.
That's all assuming that there'll be a 20/21 season of course, might be wishful thinking at this point
If you tank going into the next season, it'll be fair to blame circumstance rather than an organic conclusion, which is brutal as a fan.
Even though the thread names two teams in a specific context, it's immediately drawn out to what they achieved in entirety, which is completely unfair on the Liverpool side.
Still, '08, in isolation, won the double, and no-one would dispute it should have been a treble, so on that level, nothing really changes, imo
That United side is the best of the PL era in my opinion. And while we’re a great side who looked like achieving a historic points haul, that still doesn’t surpass a PL/CL double.
Just making the point you can't have it both ways to suit your argument.
It's also just as key to see how your back 4 would cope with Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez.
I'd imagine they'd get smashed given they couldn't manage with Morata a few weeks ago.
odd thread
I mean this Liverpool team hasn't even won a title yet ;E
In all seriousness that United attack would tear Pool's defence a new one. A lot of Liverpool's attacks stem from Trent. Who wouldn't be able to play as a forward anymore with Ronaldo switching to the left to expose the space. He'd essentially be nullified as any attacking presence. The pressing of Tevez and Rooney would further expose them massively. They pressed with way more aggression than you see nowadays. It wasn't much of a zonal system, more like a pair of rabid dogs let off their leash. They never seemed to tire. Personally I think Pool's workhorse midfield wouldn't get much joy out of Scholes/Carrick they could keep the ball for days when pressed, it's part of the reason we were so good. That defence is pretty flawless man for man and vidic and rio are the best partnership i've seen in the prem.
It's not just Liverpool though, peak Ronaldo would tear any team apart who tried to play any kind of attacking direct football on the counter. The fact that he was foiled within Tevez and Rooney was just incredible. Looking at it, None of those Liverpool players would get into that United Team. VVD and Salah/mane are their best two players and neither of those would get into the United 08 team. The most likely player would be Trent but you'd want a more defence focused right back. His attacking qualities aren't worth the sacrifice for his lack of defensiveness that he'd bring to a team that could already score for fun.
In all seriousness that United attack would tear Pool's defence a new one. A lot of Liverpool's attacks stem from Trent. Who wouldn't be able to play as a forward anymore with Ronaldo switching to the left to expose the space. He'd essentially be nullified as any attacking presence. The pressing of Tevez and Rooney would further expose them massively. They pressed with way more aggression than you see nowadays. It wasn't much of a zonal system, more like a pair of rabid dogs let off their leash. They never seemed to tire. Personally I think Pool's workhorse midfield wouldn't get much joy out of Scholes/Carrick they could keep the ball for days when pressed, it's part of the reason we were so good. That defence is pretty flawless man for man and vidic and rio are the best partnership i've seen in the prem.
It's not just Liverpool though, peak Ronaldo would tear any team apart who tried to play any kind of attacking direct football on the counter. The fact that he was foiled within Tevez and Rooney was just incredible. Looking at it, None of those Liverpool players would get into that United Team. VVD and Salah/mane are their best two players and neither of those would get into the United 08 team. The most likely player would be Trent but you'd want a more defence focused right back. His attacking qualities aren't worth the sacrifice for his lack of defensiveness that he'd bring to a team that could already score for fun.
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Yep pretty much. People seem to have short memories as to just how good this team was.
Van der Sar
Evra
Vidic
Ferdinand
Carrick
Scholes
Giggs
Rooney
Ronaldo
Tevez
Some absolute world footballing greats in that lot. When you look at the rest of the squad which still had players like Fletcher, Hargreaves, Nani etc it literally had everything.
This Liverpool team hasn't been challenged yet, they have had a great run in the CL and are not out of it, a title challenge this season without competition. I would like to see how they react from say 4 losses or a drop in form. That United team had squad depth hence was able to compete in different competitions.
Finally, SAF was not bound to one system, away from home in the CL we played a defensive setup to get us 1-1 or 1-0
Finally, SAF was not bound to one system, away from home in the CL we played a defensive setup to get us 1-1 or 1-0
Still doesn't really answer my point about how your defence would cope with being pressurised every time they had the ball. Pep's City are widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best, Premier League side ever. They've struggled against us on quite a few occasions even with the plethora of world class attacking talent they have at their disposal, so why do you think your 2008 side would fare any better ?
Not been challenged
We came within a sniff of a league & CL double last season. You don't count that as a challenge then ?That was a start of something. You came of the back of a season where you were 25 points behind City. So in that season you challenged CIty not the other way round. No one expected a title challenge unlike this season.Not been challenged
It is all well and good when you are dark horses, but it is a different ball game once you win the league and teams are coming for you.
Consistently managing to beat the challenges is what makes a Great side. Ofcourse this Liverpool team is a brilliant one, but we are comparing the 08 team which is different gravy.
The difference is that Pep and City have one way of playing and are a stubborn team. SAF teams knew when to play football from the back and when to change style.
I have no doubt Fergie would be changing tactics V Klopp to have players like Park and Fletcher giving Ronaldo, Rooney freedom up top. There would be a direct tactic which we have seen Liverpool struggle with when teams play the ball in the channel. I am sure Scholes, Carrick would find a ball over the top to Ronaldo / Rooney who in that time could beat a man one v one with ease.
Defensively, that team was alot better than the city team, in terms of absorbing pressure and counter attacking.
It still doesn't take away the fact that City had to win 14 games on the bounce to beat us. So the 'challenge' for us was to try & become more consistent than them. Something that we've done thus far.
I'm not doubting the 2008 United's defensive qualities. It's not up for question. What is though is how they'd cope with the a side that plays high intensity football. You were well beaten in both CL finals against a Barcelona side that played full on football. That's not me saying that we're as good as that Barcelona side, but more that United struggled with a style of football where players worked extra hard in pressing & winning the ball back quickly.
No, the challenge was for City to show they can overcome the challenge.
When you have nothing to lose, it is easier to overcome challenges. When you are favourites and the reigning champions there is alot more pressure.
Granted Liverpool have shown some consistency this season but it is also fair to say there is no challenge?
07/08 we won the title by 2 points to chelsea / CL win
08/09 4 points to Liverpool / CL final
09/10 Lost by 1 points to chelsea and / QTR Final
Even the seasons after that, we managed to compete - get to CL finals and lose the title by goal difference.
As reigning champions of Europe this season was a challenge and got KO in the last 16. Most Liverpool fans complaining about the tactics, when United had to face those tactics on a weekly basis.
The 09 final was perhaps closer than the 11 final we were well beaten by one of the best ever sides. In comparison that Utd team was on the downhill spiral which peaked 2 years before.
The thing with both the Utd 2008 and Liverpool 2019 team was the midfield area was the weakest.
(Scholes and Giggs were past there best).
So the argument falls who was better
Salah v Rooney
Mane v Ronaldo
Frimino v Tevez
VvD v Rio
Matip/Gomez v Vidic
Robertson v Evra
Trent v Brown
If sniff counts our 2 lost final says hiNot been challenged
Past their best but still better than pretty much every other midfielder in the league though? Giggs won the PFA Player of the year award in 2009 and Scholes was still the best passer/distributor and keeper of the ball in the premier league. The only thing Scholes ever lost was a little bit of mobility so he was played deeper. His output never diminished in terms of controlling games. No one is trying to tell me that they would choose Jordan Henderson over either of those two surely? If so, I'm lost for words.
High intensity is dependent on what threats your opponents have and how much of what you give they can give back. Do you back your industrious midfield to find more pockets of space in an open game than two of the best passers English football has seen in the last 30 years? Do you believe your backline would better hold out against that attack than ours would against yours? How far forward do you think is advisable to push on when the counter is Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez running the ball back up the pitch?
City's side play in one way, and one way alone, which makes them easier to prepare for and easier to shut down. One of United's many tactics back then was inviting the press, or at least pressure, then hitting the space in behind in a matter of seconds. Even with your fullbacks not pushing on, they haven't the ability one-on-one to deal with Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez haring up the pitch, so further hindering the defensive effort by pressing further up the pitch would be suicidal.
Our Kryptonite lies in making the midfield run and chase the ball, where an asthmatic 30-something year old next to a not so mobile partner in Carrick is going to need help. Your midfield does not play the kind of football that would unsettle ours, and in a technical battle through midfield, you're going to be chasing the ball in areas you rarely have to in 2020.
Your biggest strength is not a great issue to the 2008 side and carries a level of risk so high, it might considered naive; our biggest strength vs you, however, is in having lots of superior players. Where this plays its hand is they were adept at numerous manner of attacking and defending, and we'd readily welcome 1vs1 contests all over the pitch, where I think, for you, your team-based, high octane football needs an in to work. You overly press and you'll bit hit long all day, and in a battle of bypassing midfield, you definitely don't want our attacking trio running at you where Sane, Salah and Firmino are going to be met with much harder 1vs1 contests.
For your strengths, you are formulaic. I really don't think the same can be said for our eclectic mix and the plethora of ways we scored goals, defended leads and controlled midfield.
Football is a team sport, you can't just look at all individual positions and then decide which was the better team.
If both sides played each other it would be a very close game.
The United team has considerably more individual quality all over the pitch, it has an incredible defence that only conceded two goals in the knockout stages in 2008 (of which one happened because everyone slipped at the same time) and of course has Ronaldo, it also IMO has better strength in depth.
The current Liverpool team on the other hand has a lot of quality too but is also exceptionally well drilled tactically to the extent its like clockwork and extremely fit. They are a very powerful team going forwards and are relentless.
I would back my own team of course, I just think the match ups favour us. Our backline would have a tough time against Salah and Mane but not as much as they would have trying to contain Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez. But football is not an individual sport, it is a team sport and Liverpool's team pressing might be a leveller and trying to outmanoeuvre their sustained pressure would be interesting. Still I would back players like Rio, Scholes and Carrick to handle that as we weren't really a team who would obsess about possession.
The United team has considerably more individual quality all over the pitch, it has an incredible defence that only conceded two goals in the knockout stages in 2008 (of which one happened because everyone slipped at the same time) and of course has Ronaldo, it also IMO has better strength in depth.
The current Liverpool team on the other hand has a lot of quality too but is also exceptionally well drilled tactically to the extent its like clockwork and extremely fit. They are a very powerful team going forwards and are relentless.
I would back my own team of course, I just think the match ups favour us. Our backline would have a tough time against Salah and Mane but not as much as they would have trying to contain Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez. But football is not an individual sport, it is a team sport and Liverpool's team pressing might be a leveller and trying to outmanoeuvre their sustained pressure would be interesting. Still I would back players like Rio, Scholes and Carrick to handle that as we weren't really a team who would obsess about possession.
Agreed, which is one of the reasons why Liverpool have done so well, they have been the better team. No one would be suggesting the current Midfield is the best in the world, put it in the system, it is one of the best in the world.
However; the United team was a mixture of individuals and team. There were partnerships all over the park with the X factor of the best player in the world.
That is the key difference, that team had the undisputed best player in the world during that time. Some will argue that Liverpool have that now with VVD, Mane, Salah but they cannot compare with Ronaldo. He did special things for us that season, with all types of goals. Headers, Counter attack, Individual brilliance, team goals and unreal freekicks.
Man for man, TAA would get in ahead of Brown (though brown was great that season), Mane ahead of Tevez (and switching to a 433 with Rooney central, Ronaldo right and Mane left)... and thats probably it. Henderson wouldn't get in ahead of Carrick, Nobody would get in ahead of Scholes, the 3rd midfielder I guess we didn't really play with but they don't have someone who really excels enough to force anyone out of that United team out. So just 2 players. Salah would never get in ahead of Ronaldo, and Firmino would never get in ahead of Rooney. Rio, Vidic, Evra and VDS walk in as well with their record breaking numbers in that time.
Then in actual team performances and results, doesn't get much better. 3 titles, 1 CL, 1 runner up and 1 semi final over 3 years. They're at 1 runner up and 1 CL win with 1 league runner up and 1 PL win (unconfirmed as of now, but basically). We're just on another level tbh.
Then in actual team performances and results, doesn't get much better. 3 titles, 1 CL, 1 runner up and 1 semi final over 3 years. They're at 1 runner up and 1 CL win with 1 league runner up and 1 PL win (unconfirmed as of now, but basically). We're just on another level tbh.
Still that United team could counter at break neck speed given half a chance. Carrick and Scholes were very smart players and I’m sure we‘d get a few chances to counter. Thinking about it, I believe SAF’s willingness to concede possession in these tight games would see us fare pretty well against this Liverpool edition. You haven’t even managed to dominate this season’s version of United, and I’d say Ole has taken a page out of SAF’s play book.
Red Cafe eh?
Giggs wasn't a regular in the 2008 team.
The midfield that started the CL final
Carrick. Scholes. Hargreaves.
Giggs didn't even start in either of the semi finals against Barcalona that year.
That's besides the point mate. I'm just pointing out that Giggs "past his best" was still winning PFA Awards a year later. Him not playing is a valid reason for not comparing, but saying he's essentially over the hill isn't true and not a valid reason. Also, if we're talking comparison wise we rotated way way more than this Liverpool team so it might not be as black and white as to who the "first team" were as it was dependant on opponent. Hargreaves, Giggs and Nani were all first team regulars and I couldn't say with a clear conscience that Giggs was considered a back up by any stretch of the imagination.
EDIT: Just checked and Giggs played 31(5) premier league games in 2007/2008 season and 28(13) in 2008/2009 season so i'm not sure where you're getting that he wasn't a regular starter.
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I think what Fergie did in Europe with Aberdeen in 83 and with United in 91 and 99 was better than anything Klopp has done in Europe, horses for courses considered.
United 2006-2009 was a lot better as a team than anything Fergie ever worked with before or after, and Liverpool has had one and a half season of sniffing at that comparative level. United 08ish was a much more complete team, very well managed but fantasticly built. Let’s see if Klopp can make three CL finals with this Liverpool first.
Football has evolved so this Liverpool side is probably better in modern football. Although in relative terms I would say our 2008 team was better. Certainly more entertaining and with bigger profiles and bigger squad.
Still the competition back during those days was not as high in the league. It was mainly Chelsea that challenged for the title after Mourinho. Liverpool fairly strong too and did challenge in 2008/2009. After that the quality in the league was not that high.
Our CL win was great, but Liverpools was more impressive. More results against big teams and a big impressive comeback against Barcelona.
Still they didn't get a double and failed this season as well. We could have got a treble as well if not for the game against Pompey.
Still the competition back during those days was not as high in the league. It was mainly Chelsea that challenged for the title after Mourinho. Liverpool fairly strong too and did challenge in 2008/2009. After that the quality in the league was not that high.
Our CL win was great, but Liverpools was more impressive. More results against big teams and a big impressive comeback against Barcelona.
Still they didn't get a double and failed this season as well. We could have got a treble as well if not for the game against Pompey.
This would be my combined XI
A toss up between Mane or Salah, but I went with Mane in the end because I see him as more of a pure winger. I also feel like he's less selfish and would be able to link up better with Rooney and Ronaldo.
Wijnaldum has supreme ball retention, dribbling ability, and is a big game player. He definitely gets in the midfield.
VVD was a Messi away from the Ballon d'Or so he gets in for Vidic.
TAA is just plain better and more talented than Brown.
Ronaldo - Rooney - Mane
Wijnaldum - Carrick - Scholes
Evra - VVD - Rio - TAA
VdSar
Wijnaldum - Carrick - Scholes
Evra - VVD - Rio - TAA
VdSar
A toss up between Mane or Salah, but I went with Mane in the end because I see him as more of a pure winger. I also feel like he's less selfish and would be able to link up better with Rooney and Ronaldo.
Wijnaldum has supreme ball retention, dribbling ability, and is a big game player. He definitely gets in the midfield.
VVD was a Messi away from the Ballon d'Or so he gets in for Vidic.
TAA is just plain better and more talented than Brown.
United 08 should have won a second treble for us. Unreal team. Its put them ahead of Liverpool 19 on that alone.
Their side is better due to it being betger coached. Huge tactical advances have been made in the past decade. Football tends to move on tactically as opposed to the players being better.
In terms of individual players we probably have the edge. Just an edge though as they do have high quality players.
In terms of individual players we probably have the edge. Just an edge though as they do have high quality players.
No if's and but's.. Ultimately we judge teams on results, so United '08 wins this one. And if Liverpool fail to win more with this team, we will not be remembered in the same bracket as United 06-09.
Better coached? Long balls and right wing crosses are these huge tactical advancements?
The Utd team is factually better in terms of achievements so just on that there is no discussion. But I think a fairer team to compare the current Liverpool side with would be Utd of 92-94. The reason I say that is because the players in the Utd team of 2008 had the benefit of being at a club who had been winning the top prizes for 15 years. The Utd team of 07-09 is arguably the best in the PL era but it didn't happen overnight. The foundations were incredibly solid and that team was a culmination of years of fantastic recruitment, brilliant management and a culture of winning hardwired into the club. There were still players from the class of 92 in that squad. That would be like this current Liverpool team still having some top players from 2005.