What to do with Hannibal? (revisited)

foolsgold

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Surprised at the lack of discussion about a move for Hannibal, I think he must be back for training this week not having been involved in any international games this summer.

He seems to have totally fallen out of contention at United after a poor loan spell in Spain. Is there a realistic buyer for him out there, or are we stuck with another subsidised loan?
 
There'll be buyers I imagine but I don't think it'll be for much considering the Sevilla loan and him only having a year left. Right time to move him on I think, had high hopes for him a few years ago but it just doesn't seem to have really come together for him yet.
 
I don’t get it with him. Yes he was overhyped - but when he actually got the chance to play a few games, I felt he was actually decent. Definitely not as good as Mainoo, but not as bad as some of our other midfielders

Really wouldn’t mind having him as a squad option here - felt we missed Fred at times last year and I think he can replicate his energy
 
I always liked him and thought he was going to make it. Aside from being a bit too rash at times, I don’t really see where his major weaknesses are.

He’s tenacious, presses well and can pick a pass. Even if he’s not going to be elite, you’d have to think he’s a decent player for a lower level Prem or La Liga side.

Sevilla seems to be a really shite place to send players on loan in general. I hope we don’t make that mistake again.
 
We should be using Nice and Lausanne for these type of loans these days.
 
I thought he did alright when he came into the team bar a bad game or two. I actually liked the look of him, he's competent on the ball and also combative, someone that if well developed could be very good for a midfield three. He just didn't seem to get a fair shake though.

It's actually unbelievable how we get to endure countless games of someone like McTominay stink out out the place until he gets a luck goal while a far better player barely gets a look in, and end up losing him for peanuts.
 
He had 320 minutes of first team football for us since he came back from Birmingham and managed to get 5 yellow cards. That's a crazy rate of bookings and is indicative of a player who is trying too hard.

Then he's having a bust up the week he goes on loan to Spain and it's plain to see why coaches are hesitant to trust him. "Rash" doesn't really begin to cover it. It's a shame because he looked a great technical player for the youth teams. There were a couple of games he played with Amad a while back where the pair of them just oozed class.

Hannibal reminded me a lot of Jack Grealish at Villa with his dribbling style and link up play, and it'd be great to have that assured version of him in the squad. But unless he's learnt some lessons and has a great preseason, he's bound to be gone.
 
I don’t get it with him. Yes he was overhyped - but when he actually got the chance to play a few games, I felt he was actually decent. Definitely not as good as Mainoo, but not as bad as some of our other midfielders

Really wouldn’t mind having him as a squad option here - felt we missed Fred at times last year and I think he can replicate his energy

I agree better as a squad option than selling him for a likely pitiful fee or worthless loan. Bar the rashness he looks a good player if not living up to the early hype. State of our midfield think we need a couple to step up into the squad numbers wise from the youth set up.
 
He had 320 minutes of first team football for us since he came back from Birmingham and managed to get 5 yellow cards. That's a crazy rate of bookings and is indicative of a player who is trying too hard.

Then he's having a bust up the week he goes on loan to Spain and it's plain to see why coaches are hesitant to trust him. "Rash" doesn't really begin to cover it. It's a shame because he looked a great technical player for the youth teams. There were a couple of games he played with Amad a while back where the pair of them just oozed class.

Hannibal reminded me a lot of Jack Grealish at Villa with his dribbling style and link up play, and it'd be great to have that assured version of him in the squad. But unless he's learnt some lessons and has a great preseason, he's bound to be gone.

Trying too hard is something you often see in young lads desperate to make an impact, and is something that can be cured with coaching and gametime.

The Sevilla situation sounded more to me like the fault of a couple of egos in their squad, and then a coach who was too weak to stand up to them so hung Hannibal out to dry.

There was never any question about his attitude or application at United or at Birmingham, and for a coach to come out and absolutely slate a young player so personally and publicly was a disgrace in my opinion. We should’ve immediately recalled him and cut ties with them after that episode.

Horrible scummy club with their anti-football diving, cheating and ref screaming anyway. We should have no business sending young players there to develop unless we want to turn them into cnuts.
 
He should probably be sold, but we are also (potentially) short of midfield numbers depending on sales.

Currently we have Bruno, Mount, Eriksen, McTominay, Mainoo and Casemiro.

Of those 6 players, Casemiro, Eriksen and McTominay have good chances of leaving. We’ve been linked to Ugarte andd Amrabat, but could find ourselves at least one short.
 
Trying too hard is something you often see in young lads desperate to make an impact, and is something that can be cured with coaching and gametime.

The Sevilla situation sounded more to me like the fault of a couple of egos in their squad, and then a coach who was too weak to stand up to them so hung Hannibal out to dry.

There was never any question about his attitude or application at United or at Birmingham, and for a coach to come out and absolutely slate a young player so personally and publicly was a disgrace in my opinion. We should’ve immediately recalled him and cut ties with them after that episode.

Horrible scummy club with their anti-football diving, cheating and ref screaming anyway. We should have no business sending young players there to develop unless we want to turn them into cnuts.

I take your point on the Sevilla shitshow, but with the trying too hard thing; yes you see young lads overdo it sometimes, but it's really rare to see a young lad come in and be guaranteed a booking every time he walks onto the pitch because of it. You can't curb Hannibal in this case through competitive fixtures because he's putting the team in jeopardy when he's on the pitch.

He had lumps kicked out of him whenever he was playing in the U21s to the point where I wonder if there was a specific match that might have turned him into a mad bastard. I want to pinpoint his Mexican Joker moment so we can halt his rampage and save his career.
 
He had 320 minutes of first team football for us since he came back from Birmingham and managed to get 5 yellow cards. That's a crazy rate of bookings and is indicative of a player who is trying too hard.

Then he's having a bust up the week he goes on loan to Spain and it's plain to see why coaches are hesitant to trust him. "Rash" doesn't really begin to cover it. It's a shame because he looked a great technical player for the youth teams. There were a couple of games he played with Amad a while back where the pair of them just oozed class.

Hannibal reminded me a lot of Jack Grealish at Villa with his dribbling style and link up play, and it'd be great to have that assured version of him in the squad. But unless he's learnt some lessons and has a great preseason, he's bound to be gone.
I said a few years ago it would be his temperament which prevents him having a career at United. I now think the best option for all parties is to sell with buy-back and sell on clauses included. He needs to play regular first team football for the good of his career.
 
He will end up like Andreas, solid player for "smaller" club. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Yeah but I’d like to see us get paid properly for that. These clubs are happy to rinse us for their players, but too often end up getting very capable players from us on the cheap.
 
His rashness is ruining his career, imo, and that’s a great shame because he has far more ability than people who didn’t follow him coming up, know.

As he is, he’s not trusted, and that’s about the worst thing an upcoming player can be stigmatised with - if the manager doesn’t trust you, he’ll do anything but pick you, and you’ll never have priority over those he does put trust in.
 
I agree that Hannibal could do with calming down a little, and showing more of the on the ball skills that we know he has from watching him coming through the academy.

However, I think this whole 'he's too ill-disciplined / a red card waiting to happen' stigma is overdone. So far in his senior career, he's played 65 club games and 27 internationals - so almost 100 games - and has never yet received a red card.

Yes, some of those are just brief sub appearances; and he probably picked up a decent amount of bookings amongst them. But almost 100 games and no red cards makes it feel a very unfair reputation that he's impossible to give minutes to because he's a disciplinary liability and a guaranteed red card!
 
Don't see why he couldn't do a Fred engine role type player for us if he can be slick with his tackling.
 
Too bad the loan to Sevilla was a complete failure. Hopefully, we can get 5m for him from somewhere.
 
Should have listened to the club and gone to Everton on loan instead of Sevilla, I think Dyche would have been a good fit for him.

Would have made sense getting more experience in the PL as well.
 
He should probably be sold, but we are also (potentially) short of midfield numbers depending on sales.

Currently we have Bruno, Mount, Eriksen, McTominay, Mainoo and Casemiro.

Of those 6 players, Casemiro, Eriksen and McTominay have good chances of leaving. We’ve been linked to Ugarte andd Amrabat, but could find ourselves at least one short.
These are the only three midfielders we can trust to fulfill a role without too many caveats and the jury is out on Casemore wrt whether last season was a one off or the commencement of terminal decline. If we replace Casemiro, at least as a starter, we still need genuine squad options to raise the floor of our performances. Ideally, we need to DMs and another 8 whilst shifting Casemiro, Eriksen and McTominay regardless of how much the latter is liked as our academy product his lack of any technique or passing skill is a massive drawback and he has regressed badly in the defensive phase. Mount could be a Bruno alternative but, until he proves otherwise, he is a sunk cost to me because he is not creative enough as the advanced midfielder and he is not robust off the ball to really play as an 8.
 
Sell him, and include a buyback clause if we have any belief that he may come good one day. We're not doing ourselves or our young players any good by sending them on endless loans to random clubs every year.
 
I still think he is a very good all round action player and hope he still gets a fair crack to make it here with us.

He has all the tools but for some reason it's not quite happening for him.
 
These are the only three midfielders we can trust to fulfill a role without too many caveats and the jury is out on Casemore wrt whether last season was a one off or the commencement of terminal decline. If we replace Casemiro, at least as a starter, we still need genuine squad options to raise the floor of our performances. Ideally, we need to DMs and another 8 whilst shifting Casemiro, Eriksen and McTominay regardless of how much the latter is liked as our academy product his lack of any technique or passing skill is a massive drawback and he has regressed badly in the defensive phase. Mount could be a Bruno alternative but, until he proves otherwise, he is a sunk cost to me because he is not creative enough as the advanced midfielder and he is not robust off the ball to really play as an 8.

I’m with you on most of this, although I can’t write off any usefulness from Mount just yet. We know that he is a good footballer, and at 25 there is no reason other than terminal injuries that should mean he isn’t able to make any meaningful contribution for Manchester United. I don’t see him so much as a Bruno alternative either, but more a Mainoo alternative. Or at least both roles.

McTominay should have been sold at 20 and every summer not sold since then has been one too many so no arguments. Regarding Casemiro, I don’t know if him being a back up player is a genuine fiscal option. The opportunity to get his fee and salary off the books is more important than having him as an understudy.

Eriksen’s stock should be fairly high after an impressive Euros and I expect him to leave too. With any luck, I think he could attract PL interest still and we could get about 5m for him. I wouldn’t rule out interest from Brentford, which is basically Little Copenhagen, or potentially a promoted club looking for experience and quality. I think Leicester would be a good option.

I say all that to say, it may be worth keeping Hannibal rather than selling him for what is likely to be not much. Everton were interested in January and if they were to come back to the table we may be able to get 10m for him or so but no team abroad would pay more than half that I doubt.
 
I’m with you on most of this, although I can’t write off any usefulness from Mount just yet. We know that he is a good footballer, and at 25 there is no reason other than terminal injuries that should mean he isn’t able to make any meaningful contribution for Manchester United. I don’t see him so much as a Bruno alternative either, but more a Mainoo alternative. Or at least both roles.

McTominay should have been sold at 20 and every summer not sold since then has been one too many so no arguments. Regarding Casemiro, I don’t know if him being a back up player is a genuine fiscal option. The opportunity to get his fee and salary off the books is more important than having him as an understudy.

Eriksen’s stock should be fairly high after an impressive Euros and I expect him to leave too. With any luck, I think he could attract PL interest still and we could get about 5m for him. I wouldn’t rule out interest from Brentford, which is basically Little Copenhagen, or potentially a promoted club looking for experience and quality. I think Leicester would be a good option.

I say all that to say, it may be worth keeping Hannibal rather than selling him for what is likely to be not much. Everton were interested in January and if they were to come back to the table we may be able to get 10m for him or so but no team abroad would pay more than half that I doubt.
Agreed on both counts, too bad Hannibal is taking his time to mature and no coach, let alone one with his head on the chopping block and millions to spend on new players, is going to risk his career on a temperamental young player who hasn't translated his admittedly high potential into tangible performances. Its a bit sad with him, he won't get chances to impress because of his rashness and no one is going to take a risk to uncover the player we know he can be without him showing it on the pitch. It would make more sense to get 20m for McTominay and blood in Hannibal but Ten Hag won't do it because the former has mastered the art of looking useful whilst doing absolutely nothing of note then come up with perfectly spaced goals (in terms of keeping himself relevant) that often pull games out of the fire.
 
We should be using Nice and Lausanne for these type of loans these days.

Good shout. Same with Pellistri if we arent getting offers we like for a permanent deal. If they cant make a good impression at Nice over 18 months or 2 years then call it quits and take whatever is offered.
 
Good shout. Same with Pellistri if we arent getting offers we like for a permanent deal. If they cant make a good impression at Nice over 18 months or 2 years then call it quits and take whatever is offered.

It is going to depend on whether we can get him to extend though if we want to go that route, his contract is running down and if he does not think he is part of our plans he is not going to want to sign another. With Hannibal I would look to sell for whatever we can get and just make sure to include a very generous sell on clause.
 
I don’t get it with him. Yes he was overhyped - but when he actually got the chance to play a few games, I felt he was actually decent. Definitely not as good as Mainoo, but not as bad as some of our other midfielders

Really wouldn’t mind having him as a squad option here - felt we missed Fred at times last year and I think he can replicate his energy

I don't think he was overhyped really, he was unreal in the youth teams after we signed him. Problem is he never really developed/matured his game past that it seemed, and I think we also did a poor job of committing him to one position (he seemed to play everywhere). But he still gets a yellow early in every match seemingly, has pretty poor positioning on the pitch, and in general still plays like a "talented youth prospect" instead of a first team footballer for a PL side. Contrast that to someone like Mainoo who immediately stepped into our shitshow of a team and played like a 30 year old vet with 300 first team appearances on his debut, it's just different (and no I'm not comparing Hannibal to Mainoo as players, just the overall approach and maturity in their games)
 
Was he our most expensive youth signing from Monaco? £9mil. Not sure we will recoup that. Either our scouts back then were rubbish cause we brought dross like Chong or we haven't seen anything of the potential we thought he had when we paid £9mil for him.
 
I agree that Hannibal could do with calming down a little, and showing more of the on the ball skills that we know he has from watching him coming through the academy.

However, I think this whole 'he's too ill-disciplined / a red card waiting to happen' stigma is overdone. So far in his senior career, he's played 65 club games and 27 internationals - so almost 100 games - and has never yet received a red card.

Yes, some of those are just brief sub appearances; and he probably picked up a decent amount of bookings amongst them. But almost 100 games and no red cards makes it feel a very unfair reputation that he's impossible to give minutes to because he's a disciplinary liability and a guaranteed red card!
But they don’t have to be reds to be a headache for managers; if he has a brief to be a runner and harasser (which he’s very good at) and gets booked for something bone-headed (which is his trademark), he’s immediately then walking on eggshells and by doing the first erratic action, trust in him not to repeat it diminishes rapidly to the point he might even get hooked.

Card accumulation in and of itself isn’t even the problem - if he were stacking them whilst going about his job, it would be a case of him learning over time to stop making the same errors, but when it’s for loose cannon stuff, it makes him hard to depend on or trust, which invariably sees him passed over more often than not.

He’ll have that stigma until he stops doing stupid stuff that gets him stupid cards, but I don’t think the club intends to stick around and see if he is even capable of cutting that out if his game.
 
He's actually pretty similar to a player we are supposedly targeting - Ugarte. He's not as good (obviously) as Ugarte with the defensive side of the game, but he has a good engine, presses well and I think has a decent all-round game as an energetic 8. Unfortunately I think Gore might be viewed as a bigger talent whilst being younger. I would much prefer one of him or Gore takes McT's minutes.
 
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Could take Amrabat's spot if he can learn to keep his head. Solid player with a bit of grit. Could be useful next to Ugarte in a double pivot.
 
Was he our most expensive youth signing from Monaco? £9mil. Not sure we will recoup that. Either our scouts back then were rubbish cause we brought dross like Chong or we haven't seen anything of the potential we thought he had when we paid £9mil for him.

and we could have had him for free the summer before. He was on trial and the coaches told the club to sign him and they didn’t… he’s going to be a good player, eventually. He’s not ever going to get the required minutes here as a squad player to kick on. You keep lads like Amrabat for that. They’ve peaked and won’t cause a fuss if they don’t play for a few weeks. I would hope a younger player with it all still to prove would be a lot more ambitious than that
 
and we could have had him for free the summer before. He was on trial and the coaches told the club to sign him and they didn’t… he’s going to be a good player, eventually. He’s not ever going to get the required minutes here as a squad player to kick on. You keep lads like Amrabat for that. They’ve peaked and won’t cause a fuss if they don’t play for a few weeks. I would hope a younger player with it all still to prove would be a lot more ambitious than that

Not true.

A good reminder of why you shouldn’t believe everything you read as this isn’t even remotely true.

He claims we could have signed him a year earlier, ignoring the fact that if we did that Hannibal would have only been 15, making it illegal and earning us a transfer ban.

We didn’t follow up on it? More nonsense, it was widely reported we had a bid rejected in January right after he turned 16, as soon as we could possibly move for him legally.

Available for free? Again not true. Hannibal tried to take Monaco to court to have his contract nullified but they lost the case and he wasn’t allowed to leave for free.
 
Moving forward we need better players than him if we are to get amongst the top 4 regularly, never mind challenging. Stick a 6 mill transfer on him surely someone will bite