What to expect from a new centre back pair?

golden_blunder

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Its just that no PL experience could be a risk, doesn’t mean it’s a no go, absolutely not. Many of the best defenders in the PL are from other countries. I’m just not sure a guy like Torres would walk straight in.
Agree on Torres because he’s too similar to Lindelof
 

A-man

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Agree on Torres because he’s too similar to Lindelof
Koundé is more interesting and I think he could also cover for Maguire. But maybe not good compliment. In the end it all depends on, imo: 1. if we spend big on Sancho or someone else up front and 2. how much they trust Axel to develop.
 

golden_blunder

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Koundé is more interesting and I think he could also cover for Maguire. But maybe not good compliment. In the end it all depends on, imo: 1. if we spend big on Sancho or someone else up front and 2. how much they trust Axel to develop.
I don’t see it with Axel being a first team regular
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Its just that no PL experience could be a risk, doesn’t mean it’s a no go, absolutely not. Many of the best defenders in the PL are from other countries. I’m just not sure a guy like Torres would walk straight in.
Agree on Torres because he’s too similar to Lindelof
I personally prefer Kounde and I don't believe Torres will be an upgrade of Lindelof in defensive aspect but the concern about Lindelof is not only about his defending but what he offers on the ball is also limited. He's just a good passer but when it comes to both dribble and carrying the ball, he doesn't offer much. For example, the Villareal game, look at the amount of space their strikers gave to Lindelof & Bailly and yet, our CBs are scared to run into those spaces. Villareal players only sit back and close the passing path to our midfield because they know Lindelof & Bailly don't carry the ball. That's why we often see them spending time passing around to each other.

On contrary, you look at the stats below, Torres, White, Maguire and Kounde offer so much more in their ability to dribble and carrying the ball than Lindelof. Torres will still improve us in our build up play from the back.







 

A-man

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I personally prefer Kounde and I don't believe Torres will be an upgrade of Lindelof in defensive aspect but the concern about Lindelof is not only about his defending but what he offers on the ball is also limited. He's just a good passer but when it comes to both dribble and carrying the ball, he doesn't offer much. For example, the Villareal game, look at the amount of space their strikers gave to Lindelof & Bailly and yet, our CBs are scared to run into those spaces. Villareal players only sit back and close the passing path to our midfield because they know Lindelof & Bailly don't carry the ball. That's why we often see them spending time passing around to each other.

On contrary, you look at the stats below, Torres, White, Maguire and Kounde offer so much more in their ability to dribble and carrying the ball than Lindelof. Torres will still improve us in our build up play from the back.







I personally don’t think we’ll buy a CB because of the ability to dribble. It is not obvious why Lindelof and Maguire (also Varane) have so low numbers of take-ons a/dribbles. Is it lack of ability, their style or instructions? It’s nice with a CB who makes a dribble, but it is not nice with a CB who fails a dribble, as it is often quite dangerous .Failed and succesful dribbles:

Failed dribbles
PlayerFailed dribblesSuccesful dribbles
White1724
Kounde1132
Maguire76
Torres529
Varane37
Lindelof22


It is risk management. How many goals do you score extra because your CB is dribbling and how many extra do you concede. Maguire failed 7 and was successful 6 times, Lindelof failed 2 out of 4, do we want them to dribble more? Did they create anything? But Torres on the other hand has a very high success rate, then it might be worth it, if he creates something with his dribbles.

You misinterpret the stats when you say the others offer more when comes to carrying the ball. You need to consider how many matches they have played otherwise it is not relevant. Here are the same stats but per 90 minutes and you'll see it looks quite different.

Carried distance, our CBs have pretty much the same figures:

Torres339
Lindelof318
Maguire317
Varane315
Kounde308
White199



Progressive distance is also quite similar between our CBs, Maguire’s is about 8% more than Lindelof and Kounde. Maguire and Kounde have more progressive carries, but shorter, compared to the others.

Torres219
Maguire192
Lindelof176
Kounde176
Varane148
White107



Kounde is at the top when it comes to progessive passing (distance per 90 min):

Kounde440
Torres408
Lindelof368
Maguire364
Varane327
White266
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I personally don’t think we’ll buy a CB because of the ability to dribble. It is not obvious why Lindelof and Maguire (also Varane) have so low numbers of take-ons a/dribbles. Is it lack of ability, their style or instructions? It’s nice with a CB who makes a dribble, but it is not nice with a CB who fails a dribble, as it is often quite dangerous .Failed and succesful dribbles:

Failed dribbles
PlayerFailed dribblesSuccesful dribbles
White1724
Kounde1132
Maguire76
Torres529
Varane37
Lindelof22


It is risk management. How many goals do you score extra because your CB is dribbling and how many extra do you concede. Maguire failed 7 and was successful 6 times, Lindelof failed 2 out of 4, do we want them to dribble more? Did they create anything? But Torres on the other hand has a very high success rate, then it might be worth it, if he creates something with his dribbles.

You misinterpret the stats when you say the others offer more when comes to carrying the ball. You need to consider how many matches they have played otherwise it is not relevant. Here are the same stats but per 90 minutes and you'll see it looks quite different.

Carried distance, our CBs have pretty much the same figures:

Torres339
Lindelof318
Maguire317
Varane315
Kounde308
White199



Progressive distance is also quite similar between our CBs, Maguire’s is about 8% more than Lindelof and Kounde. Maguire and Kounde have more progressive carries, but shorter, compared to the others.

Torres219
Maguire192
Lindelof176
Kounde176
Varane148
White107



Kounde is at the top when it comes to progessive passing (distance per 90 min):

Kounde440
Torres408
Lindelof368
Maguire364
Varane327
White266
Looks like you are missing the point. Using your stats, it changes nothing but only strengthened my point and weakened yours because the stats show Torres is a massive upgrade of Lindelof in the aspect of what he offers in his ball playing ability.

Our build up play especially against team that sit deep has been our problem this season. I have given you explanation of what happened to the Villareal game. When you have a player who dribbles the ball and carry the ball, the purpose is to invite pressure so you can create more space for others. If the opposition players still don't press the CB then the CB can keep carry or dribble the ball to near the final third area. In the modern football, this ability is important since team relies on ball playing to play from the back. Lindelof doesn't do this enough and if we use your stats, Torres would be an upgrade in the ball playing aspect.
 

A-man

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Looks like you are missing the point. Using your stats, it changes nothing but only strengthened my point and weakened yours because the stats show Torres is a massive upgrade of Lindelof in the aspect of what he offers in his ball playing ability.

Our build up play especially against team that sit deep has been our problem this season. I have given you explanation of what happened to the Villareal game. When you have a player who dribbles the ball and carry the ball, the purpose is to invite pressure so you can create more space for others. If the opposition players still don't press the CB then the CB can keep carry or dribble the ball to near the final third area. In the modern football, this ability is important since team relies on ball playing to play from the back. Lindelof doesn't do this enough.
If dribbling is the most important ability with a new CB, then yes he will be a major upgrade of Lindelof and also Maguire.

I’m not sure dribbling is the most important when it comes to progressive play. Look at 1:20 and 2:08 in this video from Milan game and you see how Lindelof transports the ball. He’s not dribbling (got zero in the stats for dribbling that match) but he’s moving up the the ball effectively anyway imo but with less risk.

I didn’t see much of that from Torres against us or Arsenal.
 

Hughes35

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Better CB's add more than just conceding fewer goals. Less mistakes leads to more confidence in the whole team and a more attacking style of play. It allows the full backs to push further forwards etc.

If we just talk about the goals against, I'd expect a Lindelof replacement to reduce the conceded goals slightly from something like 24 to 20 or 21 and the goals from set pieces to reduce also. Add this to better overall team performances and you're probably talking about 4 or 5 extra points a season. It doesn't sound a lot, but it really is.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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If dribbling is the most important ability with a new CB, then yes he will be a major upgrade of Lindelof and also Maguire.

I’m not sure dribbling is the most important when it comes to progressive play. Look at 1:20 and 2:08 in this video from Milan game and you see how Lindelof transports the ball. He’s not dribbling (got zero in the stats for dribbling that match) but he’s moving up the the ball effectively anyway imo but with less risk.

I didn’t see much of that from Torres against us or Arsenal.
It's very clear that your stats don't just show the dribbling. The stats show Torres has more dribbling, more successful takes-on, more progressive passes, more progressive distance, and more carry distance. These are not just dribbling but relevant to how the ball being moved forward for the sake of build up play.

The video clip you provided is pretty much part of the stats you posted and the stats still show Torres is better than Lindelof in that aspect.

You are still trying to compare a team that plays 61% possession vs 39% possession with so much less of passing attempted in that United vs Villareal. If anything we pressed high and that match showed he was still able to handle the high press from EPL players. Despite of playing with Villareal, somehow based on the stats his progressive contribution is much more than Lindelof who plays for miles better team like Manchester United.
 

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It's very clear that your stats don't just show the dribbling. The stats show Torres has more dribbling, more successful takes-on, more progressive passes, more progressive distance, and more carry distance. These are not just dribbling but relevant to how the ball being moved forward for the sake of build up play.

The video clip you provided is pretty much part of the stats you posted and the stats still show Torres is better than Lindelof in that aspect.

You are still trying to compare a team that plays 61% possession vs 39% possession with so much less of passing attempted in that United vs Villareal. If anything we pressed high and that match showed he was still able to handle the high press from EPL players. Despite of playing with Villareal, somehow based on the stats his progressive contribution is much more than Lindelof who plays for miles better team like Manchester United.
What I showed in the video was two long transports of the ball that didn’t involve dribbling but were still effective and took him past several players.

As I said, if you believe good dribbling skills are important for a CB, he is probably your man. He dribbles quite often and is good at them (seldom fail). I just showed alternative, efficient, progressive play.
 

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What I showed in the video was two long transports of the ball that didn’t involve dribbling but were still effective and took him past several players.

As I said, if you believe good dribbling skills are important for a CB, he is probably your man. He dribbles quite often and is good at them (seldom fail). I just showed alternative, efficient, progressive play.
Your stats consist of progressive distance, progressive passes, and carry distance. They are not dribbling mate.

What you showed in the video is related to progressive distance, progressive passes, and carry distance. And Torres is still better than Lindelof in those three aspects as per the stats you showed.
 

A-man

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Your stats consist of progressive distance, progressive passes, and carry distance. They are not dribbling mate.

What you showed in the video is related to progressive distance, progressive passes, and carry distance. And Torres is still better than Lindelof in those three aspects as per the stats you showed.
Yea he is better than all mentioned CBs in that aspect, at least when he is not facing PL teams.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Yea he is better than all mentioned CBs in that aspect, at least when he is not facing PL teams.
Come on mate, surely you can't ignore the fact that we pressed high in the final.
You are still trying to compare a team that plays 61% possession vs 39% possession with so much less of passing attempted in that United vs Villareal. If anything we pressed high and that match showed he was still able to handle the high press from EPL players. Despite of playing with Villareal, somehow based on the stats his progressive contribution is much more than Lindelof who plays for miles better team like Manchester United.
 

A-man

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Come on mate, surely you can't ignore the fact that we pressed high in the final.
Of course we did. But don’t see how that’s relevant. We played high press and he didn’t manage to play through or carry the ball through our press. It’s difficult but it’s still not an achievement to fail just because playing against good opposition.
When you’re facing high press as when you play against PL teams, it’s important to have the ability to play or carry through the press.

edit:
Look, he’s good on the ball and good at carrying it forward. If he’s better than our CBs is hard to say as they play in different leagues.
 

devilish

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Koundé is more interesting and I think he could also cover for Maguire. But maybe not good compliment. In the end it all depends on, imo: 1. if we spend big on Sancho or someone else up front and 2. how much they trust Axel to develop.
Kounde is the exact opposite of Maguire. He's tiny and fast.
 

A-man

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Kounde is the exact opposite of Maguire. He's tiny and fast.
Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean similar in weight or speed. I was talking about type of defender. The Athletic had an article where they talked about CBs as dogs or cats. It was a good read. A dog goes for the man in front of him, and a cat manipulates and controls the space behind himself. Maguire is a typical dog and Lindelof a cat. Torres and Varane are cats, but Kounde looks like a dog to me.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Of course we did. But don’t see how that’s relevant. We played high press and he didn’t manage to play through or carry the ball through our press. It’s difficult but it’s still not an achievement to fail just because playing against good opposition.
When you’re facing high press as when you play against PL teams, it’s important to have the ability to play or carry through the press.

edit:
Look, he’s good on the ball and good at carrying it forward. If he’s better than our CBs is hard to say as they play in different leagues.
The fact he wasn't disposed at all despite of the press, he was able to carry the ball forward through our press. If you made 25 attempted of take-on completed and 83% success, I think that's also part of good sign of how comfortable he is on the ball even when someone try to press him. It's no wonder he wasn't disposed by us or Arsenal players like how Varane was disposed by Man City players.

The bellow stats, you can see that Torres, Kounde, and Maguire press resistance are much better than Lindelof and his progressive ball is also higher than Lindelof.

Edit:
If you combine the fact that he has high number of press resistance, high number of take-on completed, and high number of progressive ball, these reflect to how much more confidence he is compared to Lindelof when on the ball.



 
Last edited:

devilish

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Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean similar in weight or speed. I was talking about type of defender. The Athletic had an article where they talked about CBs as dogs or cats. It was a good read. A dog goes for the man in front of him, and a cat manipulates and controls the space behind himself. Maguire is a typical dog and Lindelof a cat. Torres and Varane are cats, but Kounde looks like a dog to me.
Maybe I am an old fart these days but this analogy of cats and dogs doesn't stick well with me.

Kounde is 5ft10. That wouldn't really be a problem in the Serie A. After all Cannavaro was hardly a giant either. However its a matter of concern in the EPL. I can't recall of any United successful CB who was less then 6ft tall. Bruce was 6ft tall and he was built like Tiger II tank. Meanwhile Pally was 6ft4, Stam, Vidic and Johnsen were 6ft 3 and Rio was 6ft2.

On the plus side his pace is frightening and he's got great passing ability.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean similar in weight or speed. I was talking about type of defender. The Athletic had an article where they talked about CBs as dogs or cats. It was a good read. A dog goes for the man in front of him, and a cat manipulates and controls the space behind himself. Maguire is a typical dog and Lindelof a cat. Torres and Varane are cats, but Kounde looks like a dog to me.
Centre back can do both like Rio, Ramos, and Silva in their prime. Kounde actually can do both. His partner Diego Carlos is the one who is more aggressive in his defending style.
 

bosskeano

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now i don't see how they have do this when everyone knows what the activation clause is they need to pay from his loan
 

Maticmaker

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To my mind CB pairings are crucial to the overall success of a team and much more than just a count of goals against (however these arrive).

How CB's respond to and understand each others game is the first point, sometimes you see both Maguire and Lindelof turn and look at each other when someone gets in behind them, neither works effectively with their respective fullbacks once the opposition have breached the penalty area and are even more 'at sea' when such penetration reaches the six yard box. Both fullbacks can defend as full backs but as part of a unified back four I don't think they are and the blame should rest with the CB's themselves.

The two CB's have perhaps reluctantly had to get use to DeGea staying on his goal line, but now they have had to adapt to Henderson prepared to come off his! This again emphasizes the CB 'playbook' or lack of it, preparedness. At the other end. Maguire does occasionally get his head on the ball from set pieces, but rarely does Lindelof, they should be a twin strike force in the oppositions box, especially at set pieces but rarely are!
CBs, themselves bringing the ball out from the back has seen some improvement and both have demonstrated willingness and ability, but it all seems too shaky and unrehearsed in terms of what other players should do when this happens, most times their teams mates stand and watch, goodness knows what they are thinking, perhaps..."oh didn't know you could do that"'.

Playing out from the back, well 'least said soonest mended', we often look very poor and uncertain and simply invite the press from teams who cannot believe their luck. Again the prompt from the CB's is almost too predictable, they receive the ball from the keeper then look up almost plaintively to see who might come and take it off them. If they are lucky its Pogba or McTominay, if unlucky, its Fred. If they are really unlucky its Shaw or AWB, who then nine times out of ten play it back to the keeper. Sometimes watching this scenario unfold I feel the opposition could play blindfold against us and still stop us getting out.

If you are going to count 'goals against' as the yardstick to define our CB pairing then Maguire and Lindelof don't do too badly. If you want a CB pairing that will power you to titles and silverware, we need something different, or some massive improvements in these two.
 

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The fact he wasn't disposed at all despite of the press, he was able to carry the ball forward through our press. If you made 25 attempted of take-on completed and 83% success, I think that's also part of good sign of how comfortable he is on the ball even when someone try to press him. It's no wonder he wasn't disposed by us or Arsenal players like how Varane was disposed by Man City players.

The bellow stats, you can see that Torres, Kounde, and Maguire press resistance are much better than Lindelof and his progressive ball is also higher than Lindelof.

Edit:
If you combine the fact that he has high number of press resistance, high number of take-on completed, and high number of progressive ball, these reflect to how much more confidence he is compared to Lindelof when on the ball.



As I wrote., i dont disageee that he looks very good on the ball. How that translates to PL football is difficult to know. He was ok against us, but nothing spectacular. Didn’t shit his pants but misplaced 25% of his passes. That would not be acceptable at United even under pressure. He didn’t really play much through the press either compared to his CB partner, who also had much higher passing accuracy. Think he was 6/10. But it was only one match a d his ball handling stats look impressive, agree on that. In the end it depends on what type of player we want. He is very similar to Lindelof imo. If he’ll perform better or worse in the Pl is impossible to know.
 

A-man

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Maybe I am an old fart these days but this analogy of cats and dogs doesn't stick well with me.

Kounde is 5ft10. That wouldn't really be a problem in the Serie A. After all Cannavaro was hardly a giant either. However its a matter of concern in the EPL. I can't recall of any United successful CB who was less then 6ft tall. Bruce was 6ft tall and he was built like Tiger II tank. Meanwhile Pally was 6ft4, Stam, Vidic and Johnsen were 6ft 3 and Rio was 6ft2.

On the plus side his pace is frightening and he's got great passing ability.
Yes agree the animal stuff didn’t impress me much either, but the idea to divide players in to those who attack the player in front of them, and those who control the space behind them is quite useful. Most players are of course on a scale in between, but I would say Lindelof and Maguire fit well in to those stereotypes. And in that sense, Kounde seems to have more in common with Maguire. Then absolutely, he is very short for a CB, especially in the PL. However, he wins considerably more aerials than both Varane and Torres who play in the same league.
 

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As I wrote., i dont disageee that he looks very good on the ball. How that translates to PL football is difficult to know. He was ok against us, but nothing spectacular. Didn’t shit his pants but misplaced 25% of his passes. That would not be acceptable at United even under pressure. He didn’t really play much through the press either compared to his CB partner, who also had much higher passing accuracy. Think he was 6/10. But it was only one match a d his ball handling stats look impressive, agree on that. In the end it depends on what type of player we want. He is very similar to Lindelof imo. If he’ll perform better or worse in the Pl is impossible to know.
Why are you so in love on player being coward so much? This is the thing I never understand you. Remember, higher risk, higher reward. Being coward doesn’t give you the reward.

Both his short & medium passes completion were relatively high percentage vs us, the ones that misplaced the most is his long ball which understandable since they consist of higher risk passes.

He actually made 9 passes when under pressure. That’s considered high enough since on average Lindelof made 5.5 passes when under pressure per 90. Now, you might try to make excuses that Torres played 120 min, well, let’s use his 2nd leg game vs arsenal, he played 14 passes when under pressure in 90 minutes, that’s almost 3x higher than what Lindelof does on average per 90 min.



vs United (120min)


vs Arsenal 2nd leg


Not sure where is that 25% you got from but Maguire missed 22% of his passes vs Man City. A similar example of a player who is willing to take a lot of risk playing against team that had much more possession. Whether it’s 25% or 17% missed vs us (who was more dominated in possession) is not something an unacceptable at United when there are players in our XI do that.

It’s likely that signing Torres is an upgrade of Lindelof in the ball playing aspect.

 

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Centre back can do both like Rio, Ramos, and Silva in their prime. Kounde actually can do both. His partner Diego Carlos is the one who is more aggressive in his defending style.
It’s not black and white, but some players fit very well in to these categories. I think both Maguire and Lindelof do that. Also Varane.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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It’s not black and white, but some players fit very well in to these categories. I think both Maguire and Lindelof do that. Also Varane.
Maguire probably does but not Lindelof mate. That’s why we see lot of times Lindelof chose not to attack the ball but ball watching, that’s his natural instinct and habit. For instance, the goals we conceded vs Aston Villa (A), Sevilla (2nd goal last season), vs Villareal, vs Palace, 3rd goal vs Liverpool (H), vs West Brom.
 

A-man

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Why are you so in love on player being coward so much? This is the thing I never understand you. Remember, higher risk, higher reward. Being coward doesn’t give you the reward.

Both his short & medium passes completion were relatively high percentage vs us, the ones that misplaced the most is his long ball which understandable since they consist of higher risk passes.

He actually made 9 passes when under pressure. That’s considered high enough since on average Lindelof made 5.5 passes when under pressure per 90. Now, you might try to make excuses that Torres played 120 min, well, let’s use his 2nd leg game vs arsenal, he played 14 passes when under pressure in 90 minutes, that’s almost 3x higher than what Lindelof does on average per 90 min.



vs United (120min)


vs Arsenal 2nd leg


Not sure where is that 25% you got from but Maguire missed 22% of his passes vs Man City. A similar example of a player who is willing to take a lot of risk playing against team that had much more possession. Whether it’s 25% or 17% missed vs us (who was more dominated in possession) is not something an unacceptable at United when there are players in our XI do that.

It’s likely that signing Torres is an upgrade of Lindelof in the ball playing aspect.

Yes with higher risk, higher reward but it’s a balance. Maguire and Lindelof are lower in dribbles etc compared to Torres but still higher than Varane for example. I don’t want to put to much highlight on one game, as it doesn’t really tell us much, but do you think he was very brave and amazing at progressing the ball against us? I mean like world class?

I’m not sure why you are surprised Torres made more passes under pressure? They were under a lot of pressure and their entire team had to make many passes under pressure. Probably the reason why he has so bad %. The 8 men defence of Villareal never pressed our CBs.

If you look at the stats again you’ll also see that Lindelof had, by far, the most progressive play in terms of passes and carries. None in either team came close, and that even includes the wonder boy. So I don’t understand why you chose to pick him as being poor in that aspect in this particular game.
 

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Maguire probably does but not Lindelof mate. That’s why we see lot of times Lindelof chose not to attack the ball but ball watching, that’s his natural instinct and habit. For instance, the goals we conceded vs Aston Villa (A), Sevilla (2nd goal last season), vs Villareal, vs Palace, 3rd goal vs Liverpool (H), vs West Brom.
Yes it is not 100% and even Maguire sometimes cover space, close down passings etc but in general I would say that Lindelof is more concerned about the area behind him than getting in to a duel with the man in front of him.
 

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Yes with higher risk, higher reward but it’s a balance. Maguire and Lindelof are lower in dribbles etc compared to Torres but still higher than Varane for example. I don’t want to put to much highlight on one game, as it doesn’t really tell us much, but do you think he was very brave and amazing at progressing the ball against us? I mean like world class?

I’m not sure why you are surprised Torres made more passes under pressure? They were under a lot of pressure and their entire team had to make many passes under pressure. Probably the reason why he has so bad %. The 8 men defence of Villareal never pressed our CBs.
Do you even read the whole thing what I posted?

I told you, his medium and short passes were on very good % and the reason why he missed 17% of those passes because of the long passes. Long passes consist of high risk, the more you make in the game, the higher your chance to fail even if you are not being pressed.

I’m stunned how you don’t understand the point of me showing Torres made good amount of passes under pressure. The reason is to show you that he can handle pressure against EPL players like Man United and Arsenal to counter your false statement when you said he didn’t really play much through the press. Lindelof per 90 min passing made when under pressure in EPL is 5.5, so I use that as barometer to show you what Torres does vs EPL teams is considered very good. Overall, you can see that his ball playing ability is likely an upgrade of Lindelof.

If you look at the stats again you’ll also see that Lindelof had, by far, the most progressive play in terms of passes and carries. None in either team came close, and that even includes the wonder boy. So I don’t understand why you chose to pick him as being poor in that aspect in this particular game.
Come on, I know you are smart enough to understand that Villareal and Man United set up differently in that game. Villareal set up to just sit back and deep with very less possession, opposite of how we set up in that game. It’s common that Torres would have less attempted. If anything I expect Lindelof to have more carry given how much space he was given by Villareal strikers. I also expect him to engage the strikers more to invite pressure and takes them on but he made zero takes-on. If it was Torres who was given that much space, he probably wouldn’t be afraid to take on players, given that his takes-on rate is very high.

 

A-man

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Do you even read the whole thing what I posted?

I told you, his medium and short passes were on very good % and the reason why he missed 17% of those passes because of the long passes. Long passes consist of high risk, the more you make in the game, the higher your chance to fail even if you are not being pressed.

I’m stunned how you don’t understand the point of me showing Torres made good amount of passes under pressure. The reason is to show you that he can handle pressure against EPL players like Man United and Arsenal to counter your false statement when you said he didn’t really play much through the press. Lindelof per 90 min passing made when under pressure in EPL is 5.5, so I use that as barometer to show you what Torres does vs EPL teams is considered very good. Overall, you can see that his ball playing ability is likely an upgrade of Lindelof.



Come on, I know you are smart enough to understand that Villareal and Man United set up differently in that game. Villareal set up to just sit back and deep with very less possession, opposite of how we set up in that game. It’s common that Torres would have less attempted. If anything I expect Lindelof to have more carry given how much space he was given by Villareal strikers. I also expect him to engage the strikers more to invite pressure and takes them on but he made zero takes-on. If it was Torres who was given that much space, he probably wouldn’t be afraid to take on players, given that his takes-on rate is very high.

I’m not sure what you want? Yes Torres and other Villareal players had more passes under pressure than our players. Does that mean they are better under pressure? No. It means they were under pressure. Note that pass under press is not the same as progressive pass or play through press.
Again, he seems good on the ball. If he’s an upgrade in that aspect or not is impossible le to know. If he’s an upgrade or downgrade in other areas like aerial capacity, defending, etc is also impossible to know.
 

TwoSheds

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What we saying about Christian Romero? On the face of it he'd be a good complement to Maguire? Make Lindelof 3rd choice competing with Axel, and sack Bailly and Jones off if someone will have them?
 

golden_blunder

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Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean similar in weight or speed. I was talking about type of defender. The Athletic had an article where they talked about CBs as dogs or cats. It was a good read. A dog goes for the man in front of him, and a cat manipulates and controls the space behind himself. Maguire is a typical dog and Lindelof a cat. Torres and Varane are cats, but Kounde looks like a dog to me.
If you’re going to do that then Lindelof has to be a mouse. No way am I comparing him with a magnificent cat
 

A-man

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If you’re going to do that then Lindelof has to be a mouse. No way am I comparing him with a magnificent cat
It’s sickening how someone can actively hoover over a forum to find all opportunities to piss on a loyal United player.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I’m not sure what you want? Yes Torres and other Villareal players had more passes under pressure than our players. Does that mean they are better under pressure? No. It means they were under pressure. Note that pass under press is not the same as progressive pass or play through press.
Again, he seems good on the ball. If he’s an upgrade in that aspect or not is impossible le to know. If he’s an upgrade or downgrade in other areas like aerial capacity, defending, etc is also impossible to know.
Pass under press is the same as player can invite pressure which is a benefit to create space for others, he's not afraid to hold the ball, drive forward, and invite pressure unlike our CBs in that final. Torres has shown that he's capable to do this vs EPL teams not just La Liga teams.
 
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A-man

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Pass under press is the same as player can invite pressure which is a benefit to create space for others, he's not afraid to hold the ball, drive forward, and invite pressure unlike our CBs in that final. Torres has shown that he's capable to do this vs EPL teams not just La Liga teams.
Absolutely, in the right game it is a good way to open up. In the final, we faced a team with 1-2 guys jogging casually up front and 9 defensive players with zero intention to press. Then there is of course no point trying to attract pressure.
Didn’t really see Torres drive the ball forward much but maybe I’m wrong?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Absolutely, in the right game it is a good way to open up. In the final, we faced a team with 1-2 guys jogging casually up front and 9 defensive players with zero intention to press. Then there is of course no point trying to attract pressure.
Didn’t really see Torres drive the ball forward much but maybe I’m wrong?
Of course there is a point, if you are not pressed then the centre back can still keep going carry the ball forward until either they are pressed or until the ball reaches to final third area, this is why you want a centre back who is confident on the ball. And based on his overall stats, you can see Torres is a type of centre back who is not afraid to hold the ball and takes on player and also a centre back who can still be good in press resistance against EPL teams.

Torres played against team that press high in final and somehow his passing is not a coward, 19% of his passes were short passes, 43% were medium passes, and 38% were long passes.
 

A-man

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Of course there is a point, if you are not pressed then the centre back can still keep going carry the ball forward until either they are pressed or until the ball reaches to final third area, this is why you want a centre back who is confident on the ball. And based on his overall stats, you can see Torres is a type of centre back who is not afraid to hold the ball and takes on player and also a centre back who can still be good in press resistance against EPL teams.

Torres played against team that press high in final and somehow his passing is not a coward, 19% of his passes were short passes, 43% were medium passes, and 38% were long passes.
100% agree (first time for everything) that he is good at that. Even looks like the best in la Liga at that. For me, he looks very similar to Lindelof in most aspects. Maybe he’s a little better at attracting press and progressive play, but hard to say when they play in different league, in different teams with different roles and tactics. As you know, I like the partnership between Lindelof and Maguire and therefore I think Torres would fit as well. However he would be even less suitable to replace Maguire in case of injury or rotation than Lindelof is. In some matches it would be interesting to see Torres /Lindelof, in some matches that partnership could be to weak especially in the air.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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100% agree (first time for everything) that he is good at that. Even looks like the best in la Liga at that. For me, he looks very similar to Lindelof in most aspects. Maybe he’s a little better at attracting press and progressive play, but hard to say when they play in different league, in different teams with different roles and tactics. As you know, I like the partnership between Lindelof and Maguire and therefore I think Torres would fit as well. However he would be even less suitable to replace Maguire in case of injury or rotation than Lindelof is. In some matches it would be interesting to see Torres /Lindelof, in some matches that partnership could be to weak especially in the air.
Lindelof played vs La Liga team in that final and played on the left and his style of ball playing didn't change much from his usual style in EPL. Because a style of play is like habit.

Maguire's style of play is closer to Lindelof based on stats, in comparison, Torres's style of play is much different to Lindelof. This is where Torres's style of play can be an upgrade because his style of ball playing is he loves to dribble, likes to takes on players, and hold the ball, this is perfect for our style as we played like below:

McTominay tried to carry the ball forward and invited pressure on the right side when we are in possession transition. Torres's style of play would be very suitable to be our left centre back to take Maguire's old spot and Maguire who has style of play closer to Lindelof would have no problem to take Lindelof's spot and will finally get the chance to play on his strong feet: